Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:52 AM - Re: Time to paint ? (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
2. 02:59 AM - Re: Time to paint ? (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 05:29 AM - No Canopy Gas Struts on 650 Canopy for XL...? (PatrickW)
4. 07:31 AM - Re: Time to paint ? (LarryMcFarland)
5. 07:53 AM - Re: Time to paint ? (pavel569)
6. 08:10 AM - Re: Dutch XL crash findings (rans6andrew)
7. 08:48 AM - Re: Dutch XL crash findings (Gig Giacona)
8. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Dutch XL crash findings (T. Graziano)
9. 09:38 AM - Re: Dutch XL crash findings (rans6andrew)
10. 12:35 PM - Macs Machine Website (MHerder)
11. 01:17 PM - Re: No Canopy Gas Struts on 650 Canopy for XL...? (Bryan Martin)
12. 01:19 PM - Re: Macs Machine Website (Carlos Sa)
13. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Dutch XL crash findings (Jim Belcher)
14. 02:19 PM - Re: Time to paint ? (Jimbo)
15. 11:03 PM - Re: Aileron gussets (K Dilks)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Time to paint ? |
I am going to use a paint made by stewart systems, it is stc'd and best of
all it is water based so you don't have to worry about breathing in the harmful
paint fumes.
The cost to paint a 601 is around $900.00 and that includes the primer and
etch for the aluminum.
here is there website _http://www.stewartsystems.aero/_
(http://www.stewartsystems.aero/)
and here are some you tube video's showing how easy it is to spray.
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI6G1cPX7gs&feature=channel_page_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI6G1cPX7gs&feature=channel_page)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDoveEeQdfw&feature=channel_page_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDoveEeQdfw&feature=channel_page)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3EDMqgRQxw&feature=channel_page_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3EDMqgRQxw&feature=channel_page)
Hope this helps
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 85Hrs
_www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/)
_www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/)
_www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/)
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Time to paint ? |
Hi Don,
I feel your pain.
Painting aluminum is a very tricky process. The problem is the oxide
that forms almost immediately when the aluminum is exposed to
air. It will keep any paint from sticking.
There are a couple of ways to successfully get paint on
aluminum. Both are reasonably expensive and require a bit of
skill. No matter which way you go you should get some practice on
some aluminum which is less important to you than your airplane
before tackling the big job. Just like painting steel, several very
thin coats work better than one thick one.
The classic approach is to use two products called (I hope) Alumiprep
and Alodine. These are chemical treatments that remove the oxide and
leave a thin layer of ceramic material suitable for holding paint.
The other way to start is to use a self-etch primer. This is a paint
that includes an acid to etch its way through the oxide. It is
generally easy to use but a bit expensive. The stuff I used is about
$20 per quart. I haven't done my whole plane yet but probably would
need about a gallon of the stuff to cover it.
After either of the above processes you need a separate primer and
top coat. The primer used these days is a two part epoxy based
material the runs about $100 per gallon. It is very easy to use and
covers very nicely. I use this stuff to protect steel parts without
any top coat.
For the top coat you can use either acrylic or polyurethane based
product which also is a two part system. For any two part system you
must mix carefully measured paint and hardener and let them sit for
about 20 minutes before use. I have been using the acrylic for many
reasons including cost and safety. The polyurethane is capable of
producing a higher luster and is offered in more colors, but it is
extremely toxic and has a reputation for being difficult to
apply. The acrylic is more of an industrial grade automotive paint
that is relatively easy to use. It is used by most paint shops for
utility grade jobs, while the urethane is used for the expensive fancy jobs.
You need to find the automotive paint store in your area that
supplies all the good paint shops.
In any case these are industrial grade materials which are way too
dangerous for casual use. They require safety equipment including
masks and gloves and careful handling. Read and heed the MSDSs. If
you approach this task casually you could end up crippled or dead.
You can use either a normal or HVLP spray system for this job. The
HVLP is preferred because of higher paint percentage on your project
while the overspray from the older systems wastes a lot of paint.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:56 PM 1/19/2009, you wrote:
>
>I just finished flying off my 40 hours on my 601HDS and everything
>is performing well. I'm starting to seriously think about painting
>and while I understand the core process (from reading), it is hard
>to just get a straight answer on what paint brands and produts to
>use with an HVLP gun that is geared for our 6061-T6 planes.
>
>For those that painted, do you have any product recommendations?
>Also, any tips?
>
>Thanks!
>Don Honabach
>601HDS - N601DX
>Tempe, AZ
Message 3
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| Subject: | No Canopy Gas Struts on 650 Canopy for XL...? |
Got my "650 Canopy Kit for XL" the other day.
I uncrated it, and inventoried the contents. Everything checked off on the paper
list was accounted for as it came out of the crate.
There are no canopy gas struts. It's not that these are "missing" - they're not
even on the pick list to begin with. They don't ship with the fuselage component
kit.
My first thought was that they were no longer needed with the new canopy, but when I started looking on the Zenith website (for example: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/608/60935.jpg ), I started seeing other pieces in the pictures that were also not included, like the green nyloil rub plates in the attached picture (below) of the 650 fuselage at Oshkosh.
Question 1: I can't be the first builder to encounter this. What have the rest
of you folks putting the 650 canopy on the XL done...? What else do I need
to get that isn't included in the kit?
Question 2: Another builder told me that Todd's was now making the new canopies, and that they shipped "unrolled". My 650 canopy (1/8" thick) arrived "rolled". There's no indication of a part number on it, but 65C3-3/65C3-4 is checked on the pick list. Here's a picture of the one I received: http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/PatsZodiac601XL#5293187921366289970 Did I get the correct canopy? I'm pretty sure I did, but I don't have anything to compare it against, so I don't know and am interested in what other builders at my stage are encountering.
Thanks,
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225834#225834
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_157.jpg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Time to paint ? |
Hi Don,
I painted my HDS after flying for a year and it was a long process
getting it clean enough to paint.
The paints most likely to serve best are acrylic enamel or urethane. The
acrylic enamel is the least costly
and easiest to do. Certainly closest to the urethane paints that
dominate most of the high end aircraft.
I did a water base urethane that required a lot of process and took from
April thru November to complete.
It's flame proof and the water captures the binders that would otherwise
seek out your lungs and suffocate you.
The paint has held up well with a small exception where a fuel fitting
leaked and took a bit of paint with it.
This also makes the point that touch up is just as complicated and
painful with urethane as the original process.
You need a lot of control to duplicate the original work.
The acrylic enamel is a simpler process, recommended by the Bingilis
books and sticks to anything. It also
isn't as fussy about process so long as you concern yourself about
flammability of this kind of paint.
Dupont for the acrylic enamel and Aircraft Finishing Systems is for
water-based urethane. I believe they have
revised and simplified the process for painting the water-base urethane
since I painted.
If you need process and paint history, I've a long bit in my journal
part 10, April thru November and a page that
describes a home made paint booth and page on part handling wings and
things in process.
See link,
www.macsmachine.com/html/paint.htm
Good luck,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
dhonabach wrote:
>
> I just finished flying off my 40 hours on my 601HDS and everything is performing
well. I'm starting to seriously think about painting and while I understand
the core process (from reading), it is hard to just get a straight answer on
what paint brands and produts to use with an HVLP gun that is geared for our
6061-T6 planes.
>
> For those that painted, do you have any product recommendations? Also, any tips?
>
> Thanks!
> Don Honabach
> 601HDS - N601DX
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225817#225817
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Time to paint ? |
No tips here, but congratulations, Don.
dhonabach wrote:
> I just finished flying off my 40 hours on my 601HDS and everything is performing
well. I'm starting to seriously think about painting and while I understand
the core processes (from reading), it is hard to just get a straight answer
on what paint brands and products to use with a HVLP gun that is geared for our
6061-T6 planes.
>
> For those that painted, do you have any product recommendations? Also, any tips?
>
> Thanks!
> Don Honabach
> 601HDS - N601DX
> Tempe, AZ
--------
Pavel
CA
Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table ....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225850#225850
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| Subject: | Re: Dutch XL crash findings |
see latest on LAA website. Looks as if they are going to detail what they have
found fairly soon. I guess they have found something or the grounding would
be lifted now.
http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/
front page news items.
Andrew
who got his 601UL fuselage back from the paintshop at the weekend.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225853#225853
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Dutch XL crash findings |
rans6andrew wrote:
> see latest on LAA website. Looks as if they are going to detail what they have
found fairly soon. I guess they have found something or the grounding would
be lifted now.
>
> http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/
>
> front page news items.
>
>
YOu got that from this?
> Update - Zenair Incident - 19th Jan 2009
>
> LAA Engineering has been in close and productive contact with the designer, Chris
Heintz, and we are nearing the end of our investigation. Members of the
LAA Engineering Team will be meeting with Zenair Europe in the very near future
to discuss some outstanding issues and move towards getting the type back in
the air.
You are obviously better at reading between the lines than I am.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225860#225860
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dutch XL crash findings |
The "discussion of "outstanding issues" with Zenith Europe "might" be that
their (Zenith Europe) interpretation of the physical evidence indicates the
wings were probably still attached at time of impact.
See below:
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab: N493TG; 462 hrs
--------------------------------------
Update - Zenair Incident - 19th Jan 2009
LAA Engineering has been in close and productive contact with the designer,
Chris Heintz, and we are nearing the end of our investigation. Members of
the LAA Engineering Team will be meeting with Zenair Europe in the very near
future to discuss some outstanding issues and move towards getting the type
back in the air.
ZENAIR EUROPE NEWS
Update of January 9, 2009
Neither the preliminary accident report nor the Dutch grounding-orders makes
reference to the wreckage of PH-4B6. Although for the last three months,
Zenair has received no word of new findings from the Dutch Safety Board,
factory representatives were recently permitted to inspect the remains of
the accident aircraft. Upon careful first-hand examination, we feel
sufficient new evidence comes to light that suggests a very different
sequence of events than the one proposed by witnesses. The investigation is
on-going and we do not know what is currently being considered by
investigators, nevertheless, we remain puzzled as to why the official
position has not been revised and why the grounding orders remain unchanged
Three observations in particular seem especially significant. This is what
we saw:
1) The leading edge D-cells of both wings of the accident aircraft display
remarkable similarities: From root to tip, the front skins of both wings
show even and continuous impact damage consistent with straight-on impact.
The main landing gear and nose gear strut were undamaged (one wheel fairing
actually remains attached). This, along with the nature of the overall
damage suggests that the aircraft likely contacted the water straight-on,
but more upside down (wheels pointing up) than right-side up.
2) In the area where it passes through the fuselage, the aileron control
cable of the wing that supposedly failed in the air is still cleanly
threaded through its plastic fairlead which is still firmly riveted (paint
is not even cracked) to the fuselage side. The aileron belcranks of both
wings are undamaged and still properly secured. In other accidents where a
wing was known to have "folded" in flight, aileron control cables ripped
through the thin fuselage sides (in the direction of the folding wing) and
the aileron belcranks were torn loose from the wing structure.
3) At the rear spar attachment location, the fuselage tab was intact, as was
the attachment bolt. It is the rear spar web which failed, but not as we
have seen in other accidents where the failure has been attributed to static
overload. In this case, the remaining portion of the spar channel and
doubler (a washer-like piece still attached under the tight bolt-joint)
shows evidence of failure from bending and tearing - rather than from
straight "up", "down" or "out" shear forces.
Considered together (the even crushing of both wings, the absence of aileron
cables "ripping" through the aluminum fuselage sides and intact belcranks,
and the failure mode of the wing's rear attachment point), the wreckage
seems to tell its own story as to the configuration of the aircraft just
prior to impact
.----- Original Message -----
From: "rans6andrew" <andrewcattell@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:10 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Dutch XL crash findings
> <andrewcattell@hotmail.com>
>
> see latest on LAA website. Looks as if they are going to detail what they
> have found fairly soon. I guess they have found something or the
> grounding would be lifted now.
>
> http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/
>
> front page news items.
>
> Andrew
>
> who got his 601UL fuselage back from the paintshop at the weekend.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225853#225853
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dutch XL crash findings |
actually I am privvy to a bit little more than you could read between the lines
but I have been prevented from spilling the beans for "tact and diplomacy" reasons.
Given the nature of the suspected problems I have been quite frustrated
that nobody has been allowed to put the preliminary LAA investigation findings
up on here. Even if they turn out to be wrong, preventing any further accidents
until the proof is found would have been worth the inconvenience of a short
grounding, IMHO.
I did try to make a few of the members of this group think about the situation
by highlighting the differences between the in-flight break up rates of the 601HD,
HDS and UL models and the 601XL situation. I hoped that this would show
them that something is not quite right with the XL and that it probably goes beyond
aileron cable tension issues. This was posted under Re: 601 problems on
23 Dec 2008.
If I have been wrong, flame me, I have tried to do what I think is right.
Andrew.
--------
A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL.
Still flying Rans S6 with 503.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225868#225868
Message 10
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| Subject: | Macs Machine Website |
Larry... Are you out there, your site is acting up. I use it frequently, I have
to compliment the your awesome website, it truly is a valuable resource for
those of us who aspire to become airborne! Any idea as to when it may be back
up. I am a little befuddled about a step and everytime I have a question and
something doesn't look quite right I usually answer the question within 5 minutes
of tinkering around and looking at your pics. Thanks for all of your hard
work.
Before beginning a new step I usually take a look at your site, some pics etc,
then look at the drawings for specifics and then your site. Sometimes it just
helps to have a picture (the fancy new xl drawings have pics) but for us HD and
HDS folks, Macs website is our fancy schmancy photo manual.
Again, I can't thank you enough for such a thoughoulghly usefull website.
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225895#225895
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: No Canopy Gas Struts on 650 Canopy for XL...? |
it's probably just an oversight, it's a new product and the struts may
have been overlooked when the pick list was written up.
Contact Zenith and they will probably send out the missing parts right
away.
>
>
> Got my "650 Canopy Kit for XL" the other day.
>
> I uncrated it, and inventoried the contents. Everything checked off
> on the paper list was accounted for as it came out of the crate.
>
> There are no canopy gas struts. It's not that these are "missing" -
> they're not even on the pick list to begin with. They don't ship
> with the fuselage component kit.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Macs Machine Website |
The site seems to be up and running...
Carlos
do not archive
2009/1/20 MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
> michaelherder@beckgroup.com>
>
> Larry... Are you out there, your site is acting up. I use it frequently, I
> have to compliment the your awesome website, it truly is a valuable resource
> for those of us who aspire to become airborne! Any idea as to when it may
> be back up. I am a little befuddled about a step and everytime I have a
> question and something doesn't look quite right I usually answer the
> question within 5 minutes of tinkering around and looking at your pics.
> Thanks for all of your hard work.
>
> Before beginning a new step I usually take a look at your site, some pics
> etc, then look at the drawings for specifics and then your site. Sometimes
> it just helps to have a picture (the fancy new xl drawings have pics) but
> for us HD and HDS folks, Macs website is our fancy schmancy photo manual.
>
> Again, I can't thank you enough for such a thoughoulghly usefull website.
>
> --------
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dutch XL crash findings |
On Tuesday 20 January 2009 11:37, rans6andrew wrote:
> <andrewcattell@hotmail.com>
>
> actually I am privvy to a bit little more than you could read between the
> lines but I have been prevented from spilling the beans for "tact and
> diplomacy" reasons. Given the nature of the suspected problems I have been
> quite frustrated that nobody has been allowed to put the preliminary LAA
> investigation findings up on here. Even if they turn out to be wrong,
> preventing any further accidents until the proof is found would have been
> worth the inconvenience of a short grounding, IMHO.
>
> I did try to make a few of the members of this group think about the
> situation by highlighting the differences between the in-flight break up
> rates of the 601HD, HDS and UL models and the 601XL situation. I hoped
> that this would show them that something is not quite right with the XL and
> that it probably goes beyond aileron cable tension issues. This was posted
> under Re: 601 problems on 23 Dec 2008.
Andrew, your logic was understood. The problem we may face is that the 601XLs
here in the U.S. are not all necessarily built to the same standards as the
601XLs in the U.K. and Europe.
I'm not sure here that we can throw all XLs and XL accidents into the same
category.
=============================================
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
================================================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Time to paint ? |
I have painted many cars with acrylic enamel. It does take a little practice but
is simple to use and the skills are not that difficult to master. Dupont Centari
without the toxic optional urethane conversion hardener is my paint of choice.
As long as you stick to solid colors and not metallic, pearl, mica, etc.
it is very forgiving.
Etching primer seems like the simple way to go as far as adhesion is concerned.
Acid + chromic wash on a completed structure could leak chemicals inside closed
structure and, if a water based topcoat is not used, risk moisture under rivets
and seams, causing problems with the topcoat.
Jim
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
From: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Time to paint ?
<larry@macsmachine.com>
Hi Don,
I painted my HDS after flying for a year and it was a long process getting it
clean enough to paint.
The paints most likely to serve best are acrylic enamel or urethane. The
acrylic enamel is the least costly
and easiest to do. Certainly closest to the urethane paints that dominate most
of the high end aircraft.
I did a water base urethane that required a lot of process and took from April
thru November to complete.
It's flame proof and the water captures the binders that would otherwise
seek out your lungs and suffocate you.
The paint has held up well with a small exception where a fuel fitting leaked
and took a bit of paint with it.
This also makes the point that touch up is just as complicated and painful with
urethane as the original process.
You need a lot of control to duplicate the original work.
The acrylic enamel is a simpler process, recommended by the Bingilis books and
sticks to anything. It also
isn't as fussy about process so long as you concern yourself about
flammability of this kind of paint.
Dupont for the acrylic enamel and Aircraft Finishing Systems is for water-based
urethane. I believe they have
revised and simplified the process for painting the water-base urethane since I
painted.
If you need process and paint history, I've a long bit in my journal part
10, April thru November and a page that
describes a home made paint booth and page on part handling wings and things in
process.
See link,
www.macsmachine.com/html/paint.htm
Good luck,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
dhonabach wrote:
<don@pcperfect.com>
>
> I just finished flying off my 40 hours on my 601HDS and everything is
performing well. I'm starting to seriously think about painting and while I
understand the core process (from reading), it is hard to just get a straight
answer on what paint brands and produts to use with an HVLP gun that is geared
for our 6061-T6 planes.
> For those that painted, do you have any product recommendations? Also, any
tips?
>
> Thanks!
> Don Honabach
> 601HDS - N601DX
> Tempe, AZ
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225817#225817
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron gussets |
Nobody got an opinion on this? Amazing.
kev
--------
Austria .............
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