Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:06 AM - Posting on 650 list for plans builders (lwinger)
2. 07:11 AM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Gig Giacona)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Carlos Sa)
4. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Larry Winger)
5. 08:08 AM - test (Bryan Martin)
6. 09:20 AM - UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (aerobat)
7. 09:41 AM - Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (Paul Mulwitz)
8. 09:55 AM - Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (Sabrina)
9. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (John Davis)
10. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Gary Gower)
11. 11:20 AM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Gig Giacona)
12. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Craig Payne)
13. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Carlos Sa)
14. 02:06 PM - Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (Gig Giacona)
15. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (Paul Mulwitz)
16. 04:38 PM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Sabrina)
17. 05:15 PM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (leinad)
18. 06:04 PM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Sabrina)
19. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Ronald Steele)
20. 07:51 PM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Sabrina)
21. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (Ronald Steele)
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| Subject: | Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
I see that the 650 list is under utilized. In the spirit of having separate lists,
I've just posted a detailed note that should be of interest to 650 plans
builders. Hopefully more 650 builders will start to post there soon.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Control surfaces and wings complete
Fuselage 98% complete
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227074#227074
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
While I understand why the lists were split between 601 and 701, I really think
the split the 6 series Zeniths. Is a huge mistake. And will especially hurt the
650 builders.
This isn't a social list. It is supposed to be a place to tap into the combined
experience of current and past builders. Since there are exactly ZERO builders
that have completed a 650 the knowledge there is limited.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227078#227078
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
There is a 650 list?!
This is a bit too much granularity, in my opinion...
Carlos
do not archive
2009/1/27 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
>
> While I understand why the lists were split between 601 and 701, I really
> think the split the 6 series Zeniths. Is a huge mistake. And will especially
> hurt the 650 builders.
>
> This isn't a social list. It is supposed to be a place to tap into the
> combined experience of current and past builders. Since there are exactly
> ZERO builders that have completed a 650 the knowledge there is limited.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Gig,
I happen to agree, especially since the differences between the two models
are so limited. I was trying to move some traffic in that direction, but
I'm content ignoring the list. In reality, when I want to get information
on the building or flying of Zenith Zodiac series aircraft, this is the list
I read. As you suggest, it is going to be some time before there is a group
of 650 builders who can provide 650-specific support.
Larry
Do Not Archive
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:10 AM, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> While I understand why the lists were split between 601 and 701, I really
> think the split the 6 series Zeniths. Is a huge mistake. And will especially
> hurt the 650 builders.
>
> This isn't a social list. It is supposed to be a place to tap into the
> combined experience of current and past builders. Since there are exactly
> ZERO builders that have completed a 650 the knowledge there is limited.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227078#227078
>
>
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do not archive
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| Subject: | UK grounding to be lifted soon ? |
>From the Zenair Europe site it seems the UK grounding could be lifted after some
modifications agreed between the LAA and Zenair.
Information gathered at the meeting of January 23, 2009 between Zenair and the
UK LAA: Like most other experimental kit aircraft available prior to 2005, the
Zodiac CH 601 XL was designed to meet its stated specifications, performances
and design parameters without specifically relying on JAR, VLA, LSA, or NTSB
standards. After 2005 (and the introduction of the US Light Sport Aircraft definition),
the CH 601 XL design was slightly modified so as to meet the ASTM standards
for light sport aircraft (LSA). After 2005, all US-made CH 601 XL built
to Zenair specifications meet the ASTM rules; in 2009, the CH 601 XL will mostly
be replaced with the newer and sleeker CH 650 model, which also meets the
ASTM definition for LSA.
In Europe, some countries (like the UK) simply do not recognize the national US
Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) regulations. Instead, regulators (like the LAA in
the UK) ask that imported aircraft meet some of the more stringent ICAO (international)
VLA requirements. Structural tests conducted by CZAW in the past were
designed to meet Czech ultralight and German LTF-UL requirements, but also to
demonstrate that the CH 601 XL design meets specific elements of the VLA rule
- to satisfy UK requirements.
Recently, after a thorough review of the way some of the tests were conducted,
the LAA has raised questions about whether or not the pre-2005 CH 601 XL actually
meets some the more stringent VLA standards that it requires. In order to
eliminate such doubts, Zenair has now reviewed a number of LAA-proposed modifications
which, if installed, would ensure all versions of the CH 601 XL/CH 650
design far exceed specified VLA minimum requirements. This would allow the UK
to lift the grounding order it currently has in effect without the need for additional
load testing.
These UK-applicable changes (for MTOW of 560 Kg.) include modifications to the
control system (installation of a spring-booster for the elevator, and of balanced
counter-weights for the ailerons); modifications to the center spar (addition
of stiffeners allowing for theoretical operation of the aircraft with loose
spar-bolts); and modifications to the POH (addition of a statement about Max
Zero Fuel Weight) The reason for the required aileron counter-weights is because
the LAA does not accept maintaining cable tensions within specifications
as adequate protection against a potential risk of flutter.
While UK CH 601 XL owners will need to install these LAA mandated upgrades to their
560 Kg gross-weight aircraft, it is not yet known how much weight, cost and
complexity these changes will add up to; basic aircraft performances should
not be affected in any way. After these discussions between Chris Heintz and
LAA engineers, LAA officials are now finalizing their list of special requirements
for UK-registered CH 601 XL. A retrofit kit will be made available for UK
CH 601 XL owners once LAA requirements have been finalized.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227118#227118
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| Subject: | Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? |
Aeorbat,
Thank you for this very interesting post.
I hope Chris will be issuing a general
distribution letter with his opinion on the LAA
changes and that someone (Chris, or ZAC?) will
distribute detailed drawings for the changes
Chris feels are appropriate for all the different versions of the XL
I am particularly interested in learning whether
the counterbalance proposal applies equally to
ailerons with piano hinges and the hingeless (original) aileron design.
Paul
XL getting close
>Recently, after a thorough review of the way
>some of the tests were conducted, the LAA has
>raised questions about whether or not the
>pre-2005 CH 601 XL actually meets some the more
>stringent VLA standards that it requires. In
>order to eliminate such doubts, Zenair has now
>reviewed a number of LAA-proposed modifications
>which, if installed, would ensure all versions
>of the CH 601 XL/CH 650 design far exceed
>specified VLA minimum requirements. This would
>allow the UK to lift the grounding order it
>currently has in effect without the need for additional load testing.
>
>
>These UK-applicable changes (for MTOW of 560
>Kg.) include modifications to the control system
>(installation of a spring-booster for the
>elevator, and of balanced counter-weights for
>the ailerons); modifications to the center spar
>(addition of stiffeners allowing for theoretical
>operation of the aircraft with loose
>spar-bolts); and modifications to the POH
>(addition of a statement about Max Zero Fuel
>Weight) The reason for the required
>aileron counter-weights is because the LAA does
>not accept maintaining cable tensions within
>specifications as adequate protection against a potential risk of flutter.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? |
Now that the findings are out, all those LAA insiders that have been writing to
us and the list should answer these questions:
Did CZAW ever redesign the center spar webs to shift it those two extra degrees?
Did Zenith ever supply center spar webs to CZAW that were bent to the proper shape
for the CZAW modification?
Is the current 650 center spar just the old 601XL center spar?
Does the LAA think that the twisting of the center spar webs, re-bending of the
center spar webs or re-set of the center spar webs contributed to the accidents
they reviewed?
Did the LAA review the US accident where it was clear that 6+ threads were showing
on the main spar bolts?
Are the "loose spar bolts" they are talking about: not torqued properly or torqued
against their own shaft rather than the spar?
Could the spar bolts that were found not to be torqued properly in that state because
the bolt tip was cut off to save weight and the cutting off heated and
damaged the nylo nut?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227123#227123
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| Subject: | Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? |
Hi Sabrina,
Which accident are you referring to when you say:
Did the LAA review the US accident where it was clear that 6+ threads were showing
on the main spar bolts?
I've been keeping up with the NTSB reports and dont see any references
to main spar bolts.
Thanks,
John Davis
601XL - N601JD
3.5 Hrs and counting
Sabrina wrote:
>
> Now that the findings are out, all those LAA insiders that have been writing
to us and the list should answer these questions:
>
> Did CZAW ever redesign the center spar webs to shift it those two extra degrees?
>
> Did Zenith ever supply center spar webs to CZAW that were bent to the proper
shape for the CZAW modification?
>
> Is the current 650 center spar just the old 601XL center spar?
>
> Does the LAA think that the twisting of the center spar webs, re-bending of the
center spar webs or re-set of the center spar webs contributed to the accidents
they reviewed?
>
> Did the LAA review the US accident where it was clear that 6+ threads were showing
on the main spar bolts?
>
> Are the "loose spar bolts" they are talking about: not torqued properly or torqued
against their own shaft rather than the spar?
>
> Could the spar bolts that were found not to be torqued properly in that state
because the bolt tip was cut off to save weight and the cutting off heated and
damaged the nylo nut?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227123#227123
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Since the first splt of lists,- I sugested (probably even voted, cant rem
ember) not to do it,- given that all ZAC airplanes use the same building
system,- just diferent configurtation,- all ideas can be used for all b
uilders.
-
Probably the only list that should be keept apart, given all the "experts"
WE are subscribed there :-)- ,- Yes I am there....- is the ZBAG list.
..
-
I am subscribed to all of the Zenith lists,- no big deal, eventually-on
ly delete the multiple equal posts in the lists...
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying a 701 Rotax 912S
Building a 601 XL- Jabiru 3300
Flying from Chapala, Mexico
Building in Guadalajara, Mexico.
--- On Tue, 1/27/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders
<wrgiacona@gmail.com>
While I understand why the lists were split between 601 and 701, I really t
hink
the split the 6 series Zeniths. Is a huge mistake. And will especially hurt
the
650 builders.
This isn't a social list. It is supposed to be a place to tap into the
combined experience of current and past builders. Since there are exactly Z
ERO
builders that have completed a 650 the knowledge there is limited.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227078#227078
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Gary,
The big problem with the multiple lists is for the newbies that find it on the
web forum instead of via the e-mail list. They come find a 650 list with out much
information and never return.
I know I couldn't have built my plane without this list or one like it.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227152#227152
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Not only is there a 650 list but there is also a 750 list. What adds to the
pain is that you now have to search three archives for info germane to the
750: the old "all Zenith" list, the 701/801 list (because the 701 builders
experience is very relevant to the 750) and the 750 list. I was thinking of
asking Matt if he could make the archive search function work across
multiple lists.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders
There is a 650 list?!
This is a bit too much granularity, in my opinion...
Carlos
do not archive
2009/1/27 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
While I understand why the lists were split between 601 and 701, I really
think the split the 6 series Zeniths. Is a huge mistake. And will especially
hurt the 650 builders.
This isn't a social list. It is supposed to be a place to tap into the
combined experience of current and past builders. Since there are exactly
ZERO builders that have completed a 650 the knowledge there is limited.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
I second the motion !
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
do not archive
2009/1/27 Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
> Not only is there a 650 list but there is also a 750 list. What adds to
> the pain is that you now have to search three archives for info germane to
> the 750: the old "all Zenith" list, the 701/801 list (because the 701
> builders experience is very relevant to the 750) and the 750 list. I was
> thinking of asking Matt if he could make the archive search function work
> across multiple lists.
>
>
> -- Craig
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? |
> The reason for the required aileron counter-weights is because the LAA does not
accept maintaining cable tensions within specifications as adequate protection
against a potential risk of flutter.
I have a problem with this. I have yet to see a single bit of evidence that flutter
caused an accident.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227199#227199
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? |
Hi Gig,
I agree with your comment -- to a certain
degree. I don't think flutter is behind the XL
accidents, so I don't think aileron balancing is
called for. Indeed I don't think there is an XL
aileron flutter issue in the real world - just in
the minds of some people trying to guess what might be happening.
It seems to me the LAA is a government authority
in Great Britain with responsibility for aviation
safety. Since the UK is a "Nanny State" when it
comes to aircraft certification compared to the
FAA it is reasonable for them to demand changes
which might not help but certainly wouldn't hurt
(as long as you don't mind the additional expense
and weight). Their edict should not directly
impact anyone outside their jurisdiction.
I would like to see a letter from Chris or some
sort of release from ZAC, Zenair, etc. with a
more complete discussion of the issues addressed
by the LAA. In Particular, I would like to
understand the scope of the design changes which
addresses which of the many different XL
configurations need help and which ones don't.
The LAA edict applies to LAA certified planes
which, I believe, have relatively standard CZAW configuration.
My XL has hingeless ailerons, so I am comfortable
that the design is sound in that area. As to the
wing attach bolts being loose, I think some sort
of inspection schedule is appropriate for
checking them. Perhaps annual inspection is
appropriate once the first few flights have been
accomplished. Perhaps the risk is higher than I
might guess so I would like to hear someone more
knowledgeable take a position on this.
As to the aileron cables and their tension, I
think this should be a preflight inspection issue
- at least for new planes and ones that haven't
been regularly flown and inspected. I don't
think we need an actual tension measurement, but
a look and "Pluck" inspection behind the pilot's
seat would be easy to do and should identify
cables that have become overly loose.
I hope we can all be comfortable with the notion
that we are not responsible for the LAA's actions
- only for making sense of the technical
information presented and taking action WE deem appropriate for our own planes.
Paul
XL getting close
At 02:00 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
> > The reason for the required aileron
> counter-weights is because the LAA does not
> accept maintaining cable tensions within
> specifications as adequate protection against a potential risk of flutter.
>
>
>I have a problem with this. I have yet to see a
>single bit of evidence that flutter caused an accident.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
For you guys with both 650 and 601XL plans... how do the center spar webs compare?
Identical? Different?
I only have LSA plans, for those with pre-LSA 601XL plans mentioned in the LAA
article, what is the difference between the old center spar and the post-LSA center
spar?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227244#227244
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Sabrina,
I couldn't say because I've only got the pre-LSA plans, serial No: 5411 dated 2003.
The carry through/spar attachment is 81 degrees from the top (level) longeron
on my plans. The center spar webs are .032, riveted into a box section.
The spar caps are 1 1/2 x 1/4 6061 bar. riveted to the webs. There are 6 spacers
the thickness of the wing spars that space the spar caps apart. (6) 5/16
bolts hold each wing spar on. If you want any other details just ask.
Dan
Sabrina wrote:
> For you guys with both 650 and 601XL plans... how do the center spar webs compare?
Identical? Different?
>
> I only have LSA plans, for those with pre-LSA 601XL plans mentioned in the LAA
article, what is the difference between the old center spar and the post-LSA
center spar?
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227251#227251
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Dan,
re: pre-LSA 601XL plans
Does your center spar have 4 forward spar web stiffeners made of 6061-T6 3/4 x
3/4 x .093 angle uprights placed 35 and 288mm from the centerline? The outboard
uprights are the dual stick option.
Are the center spar web lower inside angles set at 78 and 102 degrees? (6-W-4)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227259#227259
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
I only see 2 upright stiffeners, set 70mm apart, 35mm on either side
of the CL.
The angles have changed from 78/102 to 80/100.
These are the only changes I see between the 601 and 650 plans
Ron
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Jan 27, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Sabrina wrote:
> <chicago2paris@msn.com>
>
> Dan,
>
> re: pre-LSA 601XL plans
>
> Does your center spar have 4 forward spar web stiffeners made of
> 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle uprights placed 35 and 288mm from the
> centerline? The outboard uprights are the dual stick option.
>
> Are the center spar web lower inside angles set at 78 and 102
> degrees? (6-W-4)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227259#227259
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Ron, Thanks. (The outboard stiffeners are for dual sticks, but now appear to
provide support for loose wing flying--I would like to know how many times the
wings have been removed from each XL that has crashed--LAA guys, if you know
as to the ones you investigated please advise.)
How many builders out there tied their main spar attach uprights to their main
longerons with gussets similar to the way the gear uprights are configured, giving
the center spar additional torsional rigitiy that the LAA now desires?
Anyone kit building a 650: Are your center spar webs bent to the new 80/100 angles?
Do you see any signs of additional tooling marks on the lower spar webs
as opposed to the tops? (Indicating that a 601XL center spar was reconfigured
into a 650.)
Anyone kit building a CZAW: Are your center spar web lower angles bent to 78/102
or 80/100? Are they sourced from the US, Canada, Colombia, Czech Republic?
Any CZAW buider: can you post the plans page showing the center spar webs and
the 78/102 or 80/100 interior lower angles along with the lower right corner showing
CZAW or CH or ?
Thanks!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227281#227281
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders |
Sorry if this is a duplicate, I'm changing ISP and I don't know if
either old or new is working for mail.
.
I only see 2 upright stiffeners, set 70mm apart, 35mm on either side
of the CL.
The angles have changed from 78/102 to 80/100.
These are the only changes I see between the 601 and 650 plans for the
center spar.
I'll have to contact Zenith to see what to do about this. Mine will
be at 78/102 as I already have the wing kit
Ron
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Jan 27, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Sabrina wrote:
> <chicago2paris@msn.com>
>
> Dan,
>
> re: pre-LSA 601XL plans
>
> Does your center spar have 4 forward spar web stiffeners made of
> 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle uprights placed 35 and 288mm from the
> centerline? The outboard uprights are the dual stick option.
>
> Are the center spar web lower inside angles set at 78 and 102
> degrees? (6-W-4)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227259#227259
>
>
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