---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/28/09: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:54 AM - XL Canopy covers (chris Sinfield) 2. 04:22 AM - Aileron pushrods (K Dilks) 3. 04:33 AM - Re: XL Canopy covers (ZodieRocket) 4. 06:37 AM - Re: W&B 601XL (Gig Giacona) 5. 07:22 AM - Re: Aileron pushrods (MikeinPE) 6. 07:30 AM - Re: W&B 601XL (PatrickW) 7. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: W&B 601X (Carlos Sa) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: CZAW Spar Webs (David Johnson) 9. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Aileron pushrods (Bill Pagan) 10. 09:01 AM - Re: Aileron pushrods (Gig Giacona) 11. 09:17 AM - Re: CZAW Spar Webs (Sabrina) 12. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Aileron pushrods (Al Etherington) 13. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Aileron pushrods (Bill Pagan) 14. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders. (Gary Gower) 15. 01:18 PM - Re: CZAW Spar Webs (Sabrina) 16. 02:09 PM - Re: W&B 601X (PatrickW) 17. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon? (Gary Gower) 18. 05:36 PM - Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders (leinad) 19. 06:05 PM - Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? (leinad) 20. 10:38 PM - Chris Heintz's Robin (Joe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: XL Canopy covers From: "chris Sinfield" hi Can someone confirm that the old side opening HD canopy is the same size as the FWD opening XL canopy please. I have the option of buying a cover from an older HD and I have not finished my XL canopy yet to try it out to see if it fits. Thanks Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227304#227304 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Aileron pushrods From: "K Dilks" After seeing this mod on this list I wonder why on earth do they use cables as standard. I cannot think of one reason not to go for this mod, much less maintenance, simple etc etc. What are others thoughts ......Im building my first wing now and this got me thinking. Kev -------- Austria ............. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227309#227309 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:52 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: XL Canopy covers If the canopy was made prior to the 601XL's release then the canopy is a different length. However, I did install the older style to my XL and it worked just fine, installation takes considerably longer and the older canopy will be on and off a lot more for fitting it to the fuselage, as you cannot go by the photo manual and measurements. Now It hangs on a wall as I have installed the 650 canopy to the plane and I will say that the extra headroom and length are well worth the hassle of doing the conversion. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912, STOL CH750 Just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris Sinfield Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:48 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: XL Canopy covers hi Can someone confirm that the old side opening HD canopy is the same size as the FWD opening XL canopy please. I have the option of buying a cover from an older HD and I have not finished my XL canopy yet to try it out to see if it fits. Thanks Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227304#227304 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: W&B 601XL From: "Gig Giacona" alex_001 wrote: > Gig > > have a look here this was with a BRS in the top right front I've seen that Alex and the only thing I can say is that must have been a smaller BRS than the ones I've seen. When I say smaller I mean smaller than the 1350 which is the one that should be used in a 1320 lbs 601XL. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227324#227324 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods From: "MikeinPE" I am only starting to build & this option looks like the ideal answer by the time I get to building my wings :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227332#227332 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: W&B 601XL From: "PatrickW" Gig Giacona wrote: > the 1350 which is the one that should be used in a 1320 lbs 601XL. I'm installing a BRS-1350 in my XL, and am thinking that placement between the instrument panel and the firewall is the best location. It is a tight fit, and I think the European XL's do utilize a smaller BRS. Here are the pictures of what I'm considering at this point: http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/BRS# I am going with the 650 canopy, and a simple "day VFR" panel. Placement of the BRS in the usual position in the baggage area is not an option as this area is covered with the rear canopy bubble in the 650, as opposed to aluminum skin (with frangible cover) in the XL (although I did consider the possibility of an installation that would fire the BRS down through the bottom of the fuselage). Placement of the BRS further aft, behind the baggage compartment bulkhead would put it 8 feet aft of the firewall, and less than 4 feet ahead of the horizontal stablizer. CG is the concern there, although granted you could probably fill the nose gear strut with lead shot for nose ballast, or build an extended motor mount. My thinking at this point is to keep it as simple as I can and fine-tune my airplane's CG by placement of the battery aft, while still allowing for the usage of the baggage compartment for baggage. I have not seen a 650 (AMD or Zenith) with a front mounted BRS yet, but would welcome pictures. - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227333#227333 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: W&B 601X From: Carlos Sa Pat, what happens to the canopy when the BRS is fired? Isn't the canopy on top of it? Carlos 2009/1/28 PatrickW > > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > the 1350 which is the one that should be used in a 1320 lbs 601XL. > > > I'm installing a BRS-1350 in my XL, and am thinking that placement between > the instrument panel and the firewall is the best location. It is a tight > fit, and I think the European XL's do utilize a smaller BRS. > > Here are the pictures of what I'm considering at this point: > http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/BRS# > .... > - Pat > > -------- > Patrick > 601XL/Corvair > N63PZ (reserved) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:53 AM PST US From: "David Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: CZAW Spar Webs Sabrina, I have scanned in the spar web drawings from my CZAW set. The drawing set includes the 'standard' set, together with additional sheets showing the CZAW changes. The relevant sheets are labelled 6-W-4 and 6-W-4CZ I think you can see that the CZAW webs use 80 & 100 degrees, compared with the original values of 78 & 102 I hope this answers (at least 1 of) your questions! Dave Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabrina" Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders > > Ron, Thanks. (The outboard stiffeners are for dual sticks, but now > appear to provide support for loose wing flying--I would like to know how > many times the wings have been removed from each XL that has crashed--LAA > guys, if you know as to the ones you investigated please advise.) > > How many builders out there tied their main spar attach uprights to their > main longerons with gussets similar to the way the gear uprights are > configured, giving the center spar additional torsional rigitiy that the > LAA now desires? > > Anyone kit building a 650: Are your center spar webs bent to the new > 80/100 angles? Do you see any signs of additional tooling marks on the > lower spar webs as opposed to the tops? (Indicating that a 601XL center > spar was reconfigured into a 650.) > > Anyone kit building a CZAW: Are your center spar web lower angles bent to > 78/102 or 80/100? Are they sourced from the US, Canada, Colombia, Czech > Republic? > > Any CZAW buider: can you post the plans page showing the center spar webs > and the 78/102 or 80/100 interior lower angles along with the lower right > corner showing CZAW or CH or ? > > Thanks! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227281#227281 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:17 AM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods anybody know a source for the aileron pushrod ends?- Don't seem to be abl e to find them at Spruce, Wicks or in the Van's catalog.- I know they are the ones used on the RV's as they are the same as on my RV-8 but I don't s ee them in the catalog.- Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) --- On Wed, 1/28/09, MikeinPE wrote: From: MikeinPE Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods I am only starting to build & this option looks like the ideal answer by th e time I get to building my wings :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227332#227332 le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods From: "Gig Giacona" According to Bill's info... >From Van's (VA-111 Threaded Rod Ends & M 361 M Rod End Bearing) pdn8r(at)yahoo.com wrote: > anybody know a source for the aileron pushrod ends? Don't seem to be able to find them at Spruce, Wicks or in the Van's catalog. I know they are the ones used on the RV's as they are the same as on my RV-8 but I don't see them in the catalog. > > Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 > 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227350#227350 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: CZAW Spar Webs From: "Sabrina" Dave, It answers so many questions, thank you so much. Much of the reason I am posting these questions is to point out to the FAA and NTSB that crashes here in the US of what appear to be CH 601XLs are actually EU made/EU re-designed craft that may or may not have been static load tested as configured. CZAW aircraft have been static tested, but the photos appear to be of CH601XL design, not of the 80/100 design you have posted. I am told that the center spar of the Polk City incident aircraft was made from Corus aluminum, sourced in the EU. It appears that the aircraft had the low trailing edge CZAW design made per CZAW and not CH plans. Repeatedly, EU builders have told us that their aircraft kits are identical to ours and sourced from Canada or the US, but it appears that many are not. The LAA appears to have decided that all "XL/650" center spars need to be reinforced rather than tested. It appears unfair to lump CH601XLs built to LSA standards into the CZAW and 650 category which utilize this new spar set. So too, the LAA makes no differentiation between PH and FH aileron, no differentiations between center spars which already have 4 reinforcing uprights and those with 2 or none. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227353#227353 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:51 AM PST US From: Al Etherington Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods Bill Pagan wrote: > anybody know a source for the aileron pushrod ends? Don't seem to be > able to find them at Spruce, Wicks or in the Van's catalog. I know > they are the ones used on the RV's as they are the same as on my RV-8 > but I don't see them in the catalog. > > Bill Pagan > EAA Tech Counselor #4395 > 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) > > > --- On *Wed, 1/28/09, MikeinPE //* wrote: > Bill and All: They are in the "LIST" at Van's, not the accessory pages. The rod end should be P/N 3614M. VA-111 $8.10 3614M $18.26 Al Etherington ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:41 AM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods OK, for those interesting the parts for the aileron rods (rod ends and rod end bearings) are on Van's website in "the list" portion of the on-line sto re.- They are not in the accessories catalog. Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) --- On Wed, 1/28/09, Gig Giacona wrote: From: Gig Giacona Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron pushrods According to Bill's info... >From Van's (VA-111 Threaded Rod Ends & M 361 M Rod End Bearing) pdn8r(at)yahoo.com wrote: > anybody know a source for the aileron pushrod ends?- Don't seem to be a ble to find them at Spruce, Wicks or in the Van's catalog.- I know they a re the ones used on the RV's as they are the same as on my RV-8 but I don't see them in the catalog.- > > Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 > 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227350#227350 le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:56 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders. Hello Gig, - You are right the correct "list" is important. - In my own opinion,- given some personal experience I have in homebuilding ,- The share of building information is VERY important for anyone, both N ewbie and "Experienced" builder, First note-that we all have to admit, th at we keep learning all our lives. - I think that there is an important "line" here:- BEFORE Internet- and AFTER internet (email lists in this case).- - I remember (prior Internet times)- that when I had a serious concern abou t some detail in- the plans (or when choosing an airplane to build). First I need to find out Where to look for the information (through magazin es-and articles mostly)- then send a letter to the-magazine editor fo r the data of the plane and designer, wait weeks-for his answer, then wri te to the designer, builder, "kit factory" (some of this " kit factories" -was the own designer's -garage), then wait for an answer (if they feel like writing overseas) for another month ot more.-- - In short, -for some "to be" builders, could-take several months to gath er just the basic info for starting,-only to be kind of convinced, -tha t this was the plane of our dreams... - Now with this modern internet time, a first time builder,-Newbie with no -previous background in aviation,- all he needs to -do is to "google" some information (truth or false, we find plenty of both in internet)- a nd- subscribe to the specific airplane list, and Bingo!- -In a few weeks, he is an =B7"Expert" that can even advice "Newbies"- f rom the use (or not) of Scothbrite, up to the way-to modify the airplane to prevent flutter :-) :-)- - About "flying advice"- and flight simulators...- Thats another story- :-)- :-) - Saludos Gary Gower. Newby builder all my life. Do not archive. - --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Gig Giacona wrote: From: Gig Giacona Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders Gary, The big problem with the multiple lists is for the newbies that find it on the web forum instead of via the e-mail list. They come find a 650 list with ou t much information and never return. I know I couldn't have built my plane without this list or one like it. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227152#227152 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:05 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: CZAW Spar Webs From: "Sabrina" Dave, Thank you. It appears that the CZAW design not only changes the spar web set to 80/100, it substitutes shorter AN-470-AD-5 rivets in 32 positions. They are only 1/32 shorter, but why? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227393#227393 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/80_100_an_470_ad_5_528.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:18 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: W&B 601X From: "PatrickW" carlossa52(at)gmail.com wrote: > Pat, what happens to the canopy when the BRS is fired? Isn't the canopy on top of it? The rear portion of the canopy would be in the way if the BRS were mounted in the baggage area (assuming usage of the 650 canopy), which is one reason why I want to put my BRS up front. The bracket that the rocket tube is mounted on is bolted to the cabin side of the firewall, and the rocket fires up through a frangible cover on the center-front portion of the forward top skin (ahead of the front of the canopy). You can get an idea of the available space between the firewall and the leading edge of the 650 canopy by looking at this photo: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/608/650ata2.jpg I don't know what would happen to the canopy if the BRS were fired in this front-mounted scenario. My main concern would be that the parachute not get "fouled" on it. Again, this is what I'm considering doing on my own airplane. I have not completed the install, so it remains unproven at this time. I am interested in seeing what other XL/650 builders have done in this regard, and building upon the proven success of others. - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227400#227400 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:05 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon? Very easy:- Need to be a burocrat...- :-)- :-)- :-)- - Do not archive. PLEASE! --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Gig Giacona wrote: ... I have a problem with this. I have yet to see a single bit of evidence that flutter caused an accident. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Posting on 650 list for plans builders From: "leinad" Sabrina, Yes, all like you describe. The second set of stiffeners was not on my drawings but I added them when I went with the dual control sticks. Dan Sabrina wrote: > Dan, > > re: pre-LSA 601XL plans > > Does your center spar have 4 forward spar web stiffeners made of 6061-T6 3/4 x 3/4 x .093 angle uprights placed 35 and 288mm from the centerline? The outboard uprights are the dual stick option. > > Are the center spar web lower inside angles set at 78 and 102 degrees? (6-W-4) -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227426#227426 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: UK grounding to be lifted soon ? From: "leinad" Gig, I'd like to see the data that they made these judgements from too, but from what we all know I think they're reasonable. 1. You've got something statistically significant happening with XL crashes. 2. Even the EAA recommends control surface balancing because unbalanced control surfaces are PRONE to flutter. 3. Reports have been made by members of this list of experiencing flutter. I'd call that evidence. 4. There is is also some evidence (not everyone is convinced) that some of these incedences happened in straight and level flight. 5. Zenith proactively put out warnings about maintaining control cable tension. (I think they said to prevent flutter, not sure on this point) None of this is proof that any of the failures were due to flutter, but some might conclude it's enough evidence so that some precautions should be made against that as a possible culprit. I hope Zenith has some recommendations out soon,as I'm about to begin assembling wings. Dan Gig Giacona wrote: > > > The reason for the required aileron counter-weights is because the LAA does not accept maintaining cable tensions within specifications as adequate protection against a potential risk of flutter. > > > I have a problem with this. I have yet to see a single bit of evidence that flutter caused an accident. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227429#227429 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:15 PM PST US From: Joe Subject: Zenith601-List: Chris Heintz's Robin An EAA buddy of mine, we met working at the Arlington flyin 5 years ago, spent December in New Zealand. He was fortunate enough to fly in a number of airplanes. He took aerobatic lessons in a Robin. Chris Heintz designed the Robin HR200 in the 70's. http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/Robin/HR200.htm As my friend remarked, you can see the 601 in the Robin. I posted the picture he took, http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/robin_small.jpg and a high res one if you want details: http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/robin.jpg Joe E @ BFI N633Z CH601XL, 556 hours + climbing Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x51 wood prop http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/ P.S. pre LSA, built in 2003 (May - December) in 1077.5 hours 715 pounds empty, night vfr It was displayed at the Arlington Airshow in 2004 at the main EAA tent as an example of a plane that could meet the proposed LSA reg - at Zenair's request. 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