Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - A gentle suggestion (roger lambert)
2. 07:24 AM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 10:02 AM - Re: A gentle suggestion (PatrickW)
4. 10:31 AM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina)
5. 12:51 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion. (Gary Gower)
6. 01:09 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina)
7. 01:37 PM - Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (dougsire)
8. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: A gentle suggestion (Bryan Martin)
9. 02:13 PM - Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (Bryan Martin)
10. 02:36 PM - Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (dougsire)
11. 02:55 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina)
12. 03:19 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina)
13. 03:40 PM - Re: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (Bryan Martin)
14. 03:46 PM - Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (bcchurch)
15. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: A gentle suggestion (Bryan Martin)
16. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (JohnDRead@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | A gentle suggestion |
The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if the
following statement was never seen or heard again:
I have not reviewed the plans or specifications of(fill in the blank),
nevertheless it is my opinion that (fill in the blank) is better, stronger,
swifter , etc. than (fill in the blank).
All of you should be aware that merely putting in "do not archive" does not
remove those comments from the web, and that all of these pithy little
statements are being stored and may be retrieved for later use against you.
Please consider the following scenario after you have an incident where
person or property are injured or damaged:
Plaintiff's attorney:
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your passenger that you
considered this airplane to have a design defect before the flight?
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you deviate in any way from the
plans and specifications from those provided to you by the professional
aeronautical engineer that designed the aircraft?
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your passenger of those
changes or deviations prior to the flight?
Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, what educational and/or experience
qualifications do you have to gauge those changes and/or engineering
analysis did you do after making those changes?
Now it really won't matter what you say because the attorney will have your
email exchanges to impeach you with; or if you don't survive the crash, to
use in the suit against your estate and deprive your wife and/or children of
their inheritance.
And, by the way, unless you *fully* advise your passenger of all those
items, a waiver or release of liability is ineffective in most states.
So, let's all think before we type and realize that words and actions can
have consequences beyond getting flamed on the web or defaming some one's
profession and character..
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
Hi Roger,
I appreciate your comment. However, I would like to relate a recent
experience I had getting insurance for my XL.
The insurance agent said I could only get $100,000 coverage for my
passenger. When I asked if this was sufficient, she said the
insurance companies and courts don't have a lot of concern over
losses by passengers in experimental airplanes. She pointed out that
anyone getting into an experimental airplane actively takes a
considerable risk.
I think the same goes for anyone who flies an experimental
airplane. Your concern over law suits is a good one, but I suspect
it is a bit over done in this particular case.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 06:04 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
>The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if
>the following statement was never seen or heard again:
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
yak52 wrote:
> Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you...
Curious if anything like this ever happened...?
Maybe within the much larger on-line community of the RV folks? Or maybe in the
community of the Pietenpol folks, which goes back many years, or any other builder
community? Has anything like this ever happened resulting from comments
in publications in the EAA magazines (like in "letters to the editor" or "builder
completions", etc) over the years?
IMHO, this is whole thing is just plain simple fear mongering, with the intent
of stifling online discussions of topics that are of interest to ordinary people
who are building their own experimental airplanes.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228185#228185
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
My lawyers tell me there is a lot more liability in improperly maintaining or repairing
a car than in building a non-commerical experimental aircraft.
I think the insurance rates demonstrate that...
Insure a 16 year old kid in a 138 MPH 2 seat vehicle with a million dollars of
liability.
Guess which is cheaper by three or four fold, experimental or automotive?
Enough said...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228190#228190
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion. |
I cant believe what I am reading...- So, you dont have there, what is kno
wn as free will?- You have to ask your lawyer about any thing you are goi
ng to talk or- write or think?--
-
Here could happen only with the wife, if you cant "handle" her :-)- :-)
- :-)-
-
Do not archiove...- Even if it does not work :-)- :-)- :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
El hombre es arquitecto de su propio destino - Amado Nervo.-(1870- 1919)
(man is the architect of its own destiny)
--- On Mon, 2/2/09, roger lambert <n601ap@gmail.com> wrote:
From: roger lambert <n601ap@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: A gentle suggestion
The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if the fol
lowing statement was- never seen or heard again:
-
-I have not reviewed the plans or specifications of(fill in the blank), n
evertheless-it is my opinion that (fill in the blank) is better, stronger
, swifter , etc. than (fill in the blank).
-
All of you should be aware that merely putting in "do not archive" does not
remove those comments from the web, and that all of these pithy little sta
tements are being stored and may be retrieved for later use against you. Pl
ease consider the following scenario after you have an incident where perso
n or property are injured or damaged:
-
Plaintiff's attorney:
-------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your pass
enger that you considered this airplane to have a design defect before the
flight?
--------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you deviate in an
y way from the plans and specifications from those provided to you by the p
rofessional aeronautical engineer that designed the aircraft?
---------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise you
r passenger of those changes or deviations prior to the flight?
----------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, what educationa
l and/or experience qualifications do you have to gauge those changes and/o
r engineering analysis--did you do after making those changes?
-
Now it really won't matter what you say because the attorney will have your
email exchanges to impeach you with; or if you don't survive the crash, to
use in the suit against your estate and deprive your wife and/or children
of their inheritance.
-
And, by the way, unless you fully advise your passenger of all those items,
a waiver or release of liability is ineffective in most states.-
-
So, let's all think before we type and realize that words and actions can h
ave consequences beyond getting flamed on the web or defaming some one's pr
ofession and character..
-
-
-
-
-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
Gary,
It's not a bad idea.
I think what Yak52 might be getting at is that the builder/mfg is almost always
sued here after a crash.
If you still own it and especially if you were flying it, your insurance policy
will protect you/your estate.
If you sell the aircraft and do not maintain "tail end" coverage, you are exposed
to liability. Even if you win, you have legal bills.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228207#228207
Message 7
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| Subject: | Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets |
I am working up a rivet strength comparison chart and am trying to find the tensile
strength of AN470 1/8" and 5/32" solid aluminum rivets. I found the shear
strength in the ZAC Construction Standards but haven't been able to track down
tensile. Anyone have that handy?
Thanks,
Doug Sire
601XL
Billings, MT
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228212#228212
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
Very few, if any homebuilders have been sued over the crash of their
airplanes. There is simply no money in it. The ambulance chasers
generally go after the deep pockets and home builders generally don't
have enough money to make them a worthwhile target. That's one of the
reasons people build their own airplane rather than buying a new
$500,000 Cessna or Beech. Even in the John Denver case, the builder
was not named in the law suit even though two companies that had
absolutely nothing to do with the accident were named. In fact, unless
you have substantial assets to protect, carrying a big insurance
policy just makes you a bigger target for the bottom feeding
parasites. The risk of a homebuilder being sued is not zero, but it's
not something I would worry too much about.
On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Sabrina wrote:
> <chicago2paris@msn.com>
>
> Gary,
>
> It's not a bad idea.
>
> I think what Yak52 might be getting at is that the builder/mfg is
> almost always sued here after a crash.
>
> If you still own it and especially if you were flying it, your
> insurance policy will protect you/your estate.
>
> If you sell the aircraft and do not maintain "tail end" coverage,
> you are exposed to liability. Even if you win, you have legal bills.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets |
I did a Google search on "tensile strength of an470 rivet" and found
this site at the top of the list:
http://tinyurl.com/aj37tw
On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:37 PM, dougsire wrote:
>
> I am working up a rivet strength comparison chart and am trying to
> find the tensile strength of AN470 1/8" and 5/32" solid aluminum
> rivets. I found the shear strength in the ZAC Construction
> Standards but haven't been able to track down tensile. Anyone have
> that handy?
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets |
I forgot to mention that in my searches all I have found is a very high number
(at least relative to others that I'm comparing against), such as 38,000 lbs.
This must be an ultimate number whereas everything else I've found is in the
few hundred lb range. Maybe these are "yield" strength? For example, the
factory spec sheet for an Avex A5 rivet shows a tensile strength of 300 lbs.
Doug Sire
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228220#228220
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
I take it Bryan you are not a fan of insurance agents or lawyers.
I have found most of my EAA153 builder buddies extremely wealthy. Most spend
more on their panel than I spent on the entire aircraft.
Where did you get your facts from? A lawyer or an insurance agent?
Did you ever think that person told you not to worry because they knew you had
an umbrella policy or insurance on the craft itself?
Who here is not worried about their liability for a craft they built after they
sell it?
Has anyone asked their insurance agent if their homeowners or umbrella policy covers
it?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228223#228223
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
This was just sent to me off line, for what it is worth...
The EAA Legal Advisory Council has put together a "Suggested Checklist for the
Sale of a Homebuilt or Restored Aircraft" that is available from EAA Aviation
Information Services and on the EAA website. This checklist gives a checklist
you can use with your attorney to draft a document that will help you attain the
greatest liability protection. Its important that this document is written
in accordance with the laws and practices of your state or community. Courts may
look at these agreements as contrary to public policy and will seek ways to
void them. It is also important that the release be in bold letters so the purchaser
can see it.
The use of a release from liability may be a beneficial document in deterring a
lawsuit for damages against the seller of an experimental homebuilt aircraft,
but it can also be frustrating to the seller because no one can predict or guarantee
the results of using it. As we can see from the sellers viewpoint, the
fault lies with the sentiments of the general public, and the decisions of juries
and judges who may not be understanding or sympathetic with those of us who
engage in the activities and hobbies we all love and support.
The real problem in selling homebuilt aircraft is that if the buyer dies in an
accident, the buyers minor children could bring a lawsuit against the seller for
wrongful death. The children wouldnt have been a party to the contract and,
therefore, the release would not extend to them or other members of the family
who had not signed the release. Further, a parent generally cannot sign to release
a legal right of a minor child.
Another major deficiency with the release is that if an aircraft were to crash
in the middle of a neighborhood and cause injuries, death, or property damage
to others, the agreement would most likely afford no protection....
Homebuilt Litigation: The Next Growth Industry?
Recently, a prominent insurance claims executive expressed an opinion at an Aviation
Law and Insurance Symposium that homebuilt aircraft liability litigation
will be a growth industry during the next decade because of the proliferation
of amateur-built aircraft and the likelihood that there will be crashes.
If the homebuilder selects and adapts components such as the engine propeller,
tires, brake assemblies, etc. and these components are not called out specifically
by the design, such homebuilder may assume responsibility of a designer and/or
a manufacturer. Usually, a homebuilder is not in the business of selling
a mass-produced product to consumers. Accordingly, he will normally have product
liability only when a plaintiff can prove he was negligent in building the
aircraft.
Now more manufacturers are making money and getting "established." A serious effort
is being made by the EAA to arrange Product Liability Insurance from Lloyds
of London...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228228#228228
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets |
That 38,000 you found is given in pounds per square inch. If you
multiply that by the cross sectional area of the rivet, you'll get the
actual strength of that rivet. About 466 pounds for an 1/8" rivet.
On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:36 PM, dougsire wrote:
>
> I forgot to mention that in my searches all I have found is a very
> high number (at least relative to others that I'm comparing
> against), such as 38,000 lbs. This must be an ultimate number
> whereas everything else I've found is in the few hundred lb range.
> Maybe these are "yield" strength? For example, the factory spec
> sheet for an Avex A5 rivet shows a tensile strength of 300 lbs.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets |
Doug,
Some confusion can creep in here. Strength can refer to the rivet material itself
or the joint which the rivet forms.
Shear strength numbers I have seen appear to me to refer to strength of a joint
(like a lap-shear joint). Tensile strength numbers (like the 38 ksi you mentioned)
appear more like tensile strength of the rivet material.
Once you get your data, would you please post it here along with links to where
the data was obtained? It would probably save some others a lot of time duplicating
your efforts.
Regards,
Ben Church
do not archive
--------
Ben Church
CH801
Racine, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228235#228235
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: A gentle suggestion |
What ever gave you that idea? Was it the "ambulance chaser" bit or the
"bottom feeding parasite" bit?
I got my information from my own research and experience. I will admit
I have not done exhaustive research into the subject and just because
there haven't been many lawsuits filed against individual homebuilders
up till now doesn't mean it won't happen. But the simple fact is that
most tort lawyers won't bother spending a lot of time and effort
unless there is a bit pile of money involved. The best way to avoid
getting sued is to be a small target. That's why I don't have
insurance on the airplane and don't have an umbrella policy. If I'm
ever involved in a crash in my little puddle jumper that causes enough
damage to warrant a lawsuit, it won't matter to me because I probably
won't survive the crash anyway.
On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Sabrina wrote:
> <chicago2paris@msn.com>
>
> I take it Bryan you are not a fan of insurance agents or lawyers.
>
> I have found most of my EAA153 builder buddies extremely wealthy.
> Most spend more on their panel than I spent on the entire aircraft.
>
> Where did you get your facts from? A lawyer or an insurance agent?
>
> Did you ever think that person told you not to worry because they
> knew you had an umbrella policy or insurance on the craft itself?
>
> Who here is not worried about their liability for a craft they built
> after they sell it?
>
> Has anyone asked their insurance agent if their homeowners or
> umbrella policy covers it?
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets |
Doug;
The 300 lb number is probably the clamping strength of the rivet
whereas the 38,000 lb number is the yield strength of the aluminum.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 2/2/2009 3:37:15 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
dsire@imt.net writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "dougsire" <dsire@imt.net>
I forgot to mention that in my searches all I have found is a very high
number (at least relative to others that I'm comparing against), such as 38,000
lbs. This must be an ultimate number whereas everything else I've found is
in the few hundred lb range. Maybe these are "yield" strength? For
example, the factory spec sheet for an Avex A5 rivet shows a tensile strength
of
300 lbs.
Doug Sire
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228220#228220
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