---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/02/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:05 AM - A gentle suggestion (roger lambert) 2. 07:24 AM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 10:02 AM - Re: A gentle suggestion (PatrickW) 4. 10:31 AM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina) 5. 12:51 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion. (Gary Gower) 6. 01:09 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina) 7. 01:37 PM - Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (dougsire) 8. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: A gentle suggestion (Bryan Martin) 9. 02:13 PM - Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (Bryan Martin) 10. 02:36 PM - Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (dougsire) 11. 02:55 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina) 12. 03:19 PM - Re: A gentle suggestion (Sabrina) 13. 03:40 PM - Re: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (Bryan Martin) 14. 03:46 PM - Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (bcchurch) 15. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: A gentle suggestion (Bryan Martin) 16. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets (JohnDRead@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: A gentle suggestion From: roger lambert The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if the following statement was never seen or heard again: I have not reviewed the plans or specifications of(fill in the blank), nevertheless it is my opinion that (fill in the blank) is better, stronger, swifter , etc. than (fill in the blank). All of you should be aware that merely putting in "do not archive" does not remove those comments from the web, and that all of these pithy little statements are being stored and may be retrieved for later use against you. Please consider the following scenario after you have an incident where person or property are injured or damaged: Plaintiff's attorney: Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your passenger that you considered this airplane to have a design defect before the flight? Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you deviate in any way from the plans and specifications from those provided to you by the professional aeronautical engineer that designed the aircraft? Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your passenger of those changes or deviations prior to the flight? Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, what educational and/or experience qualifications do you have to gauge those changes and/or engineering analysis did you do after making those changes? Now it really won't matter what you say because the attorney will have your email exchanges to impeach you with; or if you don't survive the crash, to use in the suit against your estate and deprive your wife and/or children of their inheritance. And, by the way, unless you *fully* advise your passenger of all those items, a waiver or release of liability is ineffective in most states. So, let's all think before we type and realize that words and actions can have consequences beyond getting flamed on the web or defaming some one's profession and character.. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:52 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: A gentle suggestion Hi Roger, I appreciate your comment. However, I would like to relate a recent experience I had getting insurance for my XL. The insurance agent said I could only get $100,000 coverage for my passenger. When I asked if this was sufficient, she said the insurance companies and courts don't have a lot of concern over losses by passengers in experimental airplanes. She pointed out that anyone getting into an experimental airplane actively takes a considerable risk. I think the same goes for anyone who flies an experimental airplane. Your concern over law suits is a good one, but I suspect it is a bit over done in this particular case. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 06:04 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote: >The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if >the following statement was never seen or heard again: > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion From: "PatrickW" yak52 wrote: > Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you... Curious if anything like this ever happened...? Maybe within the much larger on-line community of the RV folks? Or maybe in the community of the Pietenpol folks, which goes back many years, or any other builder community? Has anything like this ever happened resulting from comments in publications in the EAA magazines (like in "letters to the editor" or "builder completions", etc) over the years? IMHO, this is whole thing is just plain simple fear mongering, with the intent of stifling online discussions of topics that are of interest to ordinary people who are building their own experimental airplanes. - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228185#228185 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion From: "Sabrina" My lawyers tell me there is a lot more liability in improperly maintaining or repairing a car than in building a non-commerical experimental aircraft. I think the insurance rates demonstrate that... Insure a 16 year old kid in a 138 MPH 2 seat vehicle with a million dollars of liability. Guess which is cheaper by three or four fold, experimental or automotive? Enough said... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228190#228190 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:53 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: A gentle suggestion. I cant believe what I am reading...- So, you dont have there, what is kno wn as free will?- You have to ask your lawyer about any thing you are goi ng to talk or- write or think?-- - Here could happen only with the wife, if you cant "handle" her :-)- :-) - :-)- - Do not archiove...- Even if it does not work :-)- :-)- :-) Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. El hombre es arquitecto de su propio destino - Amado Nervo.-(1870- 1919) (man is the architect of its own destiny) --- On Mon, 2/2/09, roger lambert wrote: From: roger lambert Subject: Zenith601-List: A gentle suggestion The level of discourse on this website would be greatly enhanced if the fol lowing statement was- never seen or heard again: - -I have not reviewed the plans or specifications of(fill in the blank), n evertheless-it is my opinion that (fill in the blank) is better, stronger , swifter , etc. than (fill in the blank). - All of you should be aware that merely putting in "do not archive" does not remove those comments from the web, and that all of these pithy little sta tements are being stored and may be retrieved for later use against you. Pl ease consider the following scenario after you have an incident where perso n or property are injured or damaged: - Plaintiff's attorney: -------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise your pass enger that you considered this airplane to have a design defect before the flight? --------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you deviate in an y way from the plans and specifications from those provided to you by the p rofessional aeronautical engineer that designed the aircraft? ---------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, did you advise you r passenger of those changes or deviations prior to the flight? ----------- Mr. Zenith builder/flyer, what educationa l and/or experience qualifications do you have to gauge those changes and/o r engineering analysis--did you do after making those changes? - Now it really won't matter what you say because the attorney will have your email exchanges to impeach you with; or if you don't survive the crash, to use in the suit against your estate and deprive your wife and/or children of their inheritance. - And, by the way, unless you fully advise your passenger of all those items, a waiver or release of liability is ineffective in most states.- - So, let's all think before we type and realize that words and actions can h ave consequences beyond getting flamed on the web or defaming some one's pr ofession and character.. - - - - - =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion From: "Sabrina" Gary, It's not a bad idea. I think what Yak52 might be getting at is that the builder/mfg is almost always sued here after a crash. If you still own it and especially if you were flying it, your insurance policy will protect you/your estate. If you sell the aircraft and do not maintain "tail end" coverage, you are exposed to liability. Even if you win, you have legal bills. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228207#228207 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets From: "dougsire" I am working up a rivet strength comparison chart and am trying to find the tensile strength of AN470 1/8" and 5/32" solid aluminum rivets. I found the shear strength in the ZAC Construction Standards but haven't been able to track down tensile. Anyone have that handy? Thanks, Doug Sire 601XL Billings, MT -------- Doug Sire 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228212#228212 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:08 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion Very few, if any homebuilders have been sued over the crash of their airplanes. There is simply no money in it. The ambulance chasers generally go after the deep pockets and home builders generally don't have enough money to make them a worthwhile target. That's one of the reasons people build their own airplane rather than buying a new $500,000 Cessna or Beech. Even in the John Denver case, the builder was not named in the law suit even though two companies that had absolutely nothing to do with the accident were named. In fact, unless you have substantial assets to protect, carrying a big insurance policy just makes you a bigger target for the bottom feeding parasites. The risk of a homebuilder being sued is not zero, but it's not something I would worry too much about. On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > > Gary, > > It's not a bad idea. > > I think what Yak52 might be getting at is that the builder/mfg is > almost always sued here after a crash. > > If you still own it and especially if you were flying it, your > insurance policy will protect you/your estate. > > If you sell the aircraft and do not maintain "tail end" coverage, > you are exposed to liability. Even if you win, you have legal bills. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:17 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets I did a Google search on "tensile strength of an470 rivet" and found this site at the top of the list: http://tinyurl.com/aj37tw On Feb 2, 2009, at 4:37 PM, dougsire wrote: > > I am working up a rivet strength comparison chart and am trying to > find the tensile strength of AN470 1/8" and 5/32" solid aluminum > rivets. I found the shear strength in the ZAC Construction > Standards but haven't been able to track down tensile. Anyone have > that handy? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets From: "dougsire" I forgot to mention that in my searches all I have found is a very high number (at least relative to others that I'm comparing against), such as 38,000 lbs. This must be an ultimate number whereas everything else I've found is in the few hundred lb range. Maybe these are "yield" strength? For example, the factory spec sheet for an Avex A5 rivet shows a tensile strength of 300 lbs. Doug Sire -------- Doug Sire 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228220#228220 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion From: "Sabrina" I take it Bryan you are not a fan of insurance agents or lawyers. I have found most of my EAA153 builder buddies extremely wealthy. Most spend more on their panel than I spent on the entire aircraft. Where did you get your facts from? A lawyer or an insurance agent? Did you ever think that person told you not to worry because they knew you had an umbrella policy or insurance on the craft itself? Who here is not worried about their liability for a craft they built after they sell it? Has anyone asked their insurance agent if their homeowners or umbrella policy covers it? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228223#228223 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion From: "Sabrina" This was just sent to me off line, for what it is worth... The EAA Legal Advisory Council has put together a "Suggested Checklist for the Sale of a Homebuilt or Restored Aircraft" that is available from EAA Aviation Information Services and on the EAA website. This checklist gives a checklist you can use with your attorney to draft a document that will help you attain the greatest liability protection. Its important that this document is written in accordance with the laws and practices of your state or community. Courts may look at these agreements as contrary to public policy and will seek ways to void them. It is also important that the release be in bold letters so the purchaser can see it. The use of a release from liability may be a beneficial document in deterring a lawsuit for damages against the seller of an experimental homebuilt aircraft, but it can also be frustrating to the seller because no one can predict or guarantee the results of using it. As we can see from the sellers viewpoint, the fault lies with the sentiments of the general public, and the decisions of juries and judges who may not be understanding or sympathetic with those of us who engage in the activities and hobbies we all love and support. The real problem in selling homebuilt aircraft is that if the buyer dies in an accident, the buyers minor children could bring a lawsuit against the seller for wrongful death. The children wouldnt have been a party to the contract and, therefore, the release would not extend to them or other members of the family who had not signed the release. Further, a parent generally cannot sign to release a legal right of a minor child. Another major deficiency with the release is that if an aircraft were to crash in the middle of a neighborhood and cause injuries, death, or property damage to others, the agreement would most likely afford no protection.... Homebuilt Litigation: The Next Growth Industry? Recently, a prominent insurance claims executive expressed an opinion at an Aviation Law and Insurance Symposium that homebuilt aircraft liability litigation will be a growth industry during the next decade because of the proliferation of amateur-built aircraft and the likelihood that there will be crashes. If the homebuilder selects and adapts components such as the engine propeller, tires, brake assemblies, etc. and these components are not called out specifically by the design, such homebuilder may assume responsibility of a designer and/or a manufacturer. Usually, a homebuilder is not in the business of selling a mass-produced product to consumers. Accordingly, he will normally have product liability only when a plaintiff can prove he was negligent in building the aircraft. Now more manufacturers are making money and getting "established." A serious effort is being made by the EAA to arrange Product Liability Insurance from Lloyds of London... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228228#228228 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:24 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets That 38,000 you found is given in pounds per square inch. If you multiply that by the cross sectional area of the rivet, you'll get the actual strength of that rivet. About 466 pounds for an 1/8" rivet. On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:36 PM, dougsire wrote: > > I forgot to mention that in my searches all I have found is a very > high number (at least relative to others that I'm comparing > against), such as 38,000 lbs. This must be an ultimate number > whereas everything else I've found is in the few hundred lb range. > Maybe these are "yield" strength? For example, the factory spec > sheet for an Avex A5 rivet shows a tensile strength of 300 lbs. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets From: "bcchurch" Doug, Some confusion can creep in here. Strength can refer to the rivet material itself or the joint which the rivet forms. Shear strength numbers I have seen appear to me to refer to strength of a joint (like a lap-shear joint). Tensile strength numbers (like the 38 ksi you mentioned) appear more like tensile strength of the rivet material. Once you get your data, would you please post it here along with links to where the data was obtained? It would probably save some others a lot of time duplicating your efforts. Regards, Ben Church do not archive -------- Ben Church CH801 Racine, WI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228235#228235 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:52 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: A gentle suggestion What ever gave you that idea? Was it the "ambulance chaser" bit or the "bottom feeding parasite" bit? I got my information from my own research and experience. I will admit I have not done exhaustive research into the subject and just because there haven't been many lawsuits filed against individual homebuilders up till now doesn't mean it won't happen. But the simple fact is that most tort lawyers won't bother spending a lot of time and effort unless there is a bit pile of money involved. The best way to avoid getting sued is to be a small target. That's why I don't have insurance on the airplane and don't have an umbrella policy. If I'm ever involved in a crash in my little puddle jumper that causes enough damage to warrant a lawsuit, it won't matter to me because I probably won't survive the crash anyway. On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > > I take it Bryan you are not a fan of insurance agents or lawyers. > > I have found most of my EAA153 builder buddies extremely wealthy. > Most spend more on their panel than I spent on the entire aircraft. > > Where did you get your facts from? A lawyer or an insurance agent? > > Did you ever think that person told you not to worry because they > knew you had an umbrella policy or insurance on the craft itself? > > Who here is not worried about their liability for a craft they built > after they sell it? > > Has anyone asked their insurance agent if their homeowners or > umbrella policy covers it? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:38 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Tensile Strength of AN470 solid rivets Doug; The 300 lb number is probably the clamping strength of the rivet whereas the 38,000 lb number is the yield strength of the aluminum. John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 2/2/2009 3:37:15 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dsire@imt.net writes: --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "dougsire" I forgot to mention that in my searches all I have found is a very high number (at least relative to others that I'm comparing against), such as 38,000 lbs. This must be an ultimate number whereas everything else I've found is in the few hundred lb range. Maybe these are "yield" strength? For example, the factory spec sheet for an Avex A5 rivet shows a tensile strength of 300 lbs. Doug Sire -------- Doug Sire 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228220#228220 **************Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more. 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