Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:49 AM - elevator pitch stability (chris Sinfield)
2. 03:50 AM - Re: RADIUS PLATES & RADIUS BLOCKS for Grove U/C (David Downey)
3. 04:02 AM - Re: elevator pitch stability (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 04:09 AM - Re: elevator pitch stability (chris Sinfield)
5. 04:18 AM - Re: Re: elevator pitch stability (Paul Mulwitz)
6. 04:41 AM - Re: RADIUS PLATES & RADIUS BLOCKS for Grove U/C (annken100)
7. 06:33 AM - Re: elevator pitch stability (David Downey)
8. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: elevator pitch stability (Terry Turnquist)
9. 06:43 AM - Re: elevator pitch stability (Gig Giacona)
10. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: elevator pitch stability (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
11. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: elevator pitch stability (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 07:49 AM - Re: elevator pitch stability (annken100)
13. 10:41 AM - Re: New style wingtip on 601XL (PatrickW)
14. 11:29 AM - Re: Re: elevator pitch stability. (Gary Gower)
15. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: New style wingtip on 601XL (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
16. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: elevator pitch stability. (Bryan Martin)
17. 12:15 PM - Re: elevator pitch stability (Gig Giacona)
18. 07:02 PM - Re: New style wingtip on 601XL (skyridersbn)
19. 07:02 PM - Control Stick Torque Tube Bushing? (PatrickW)
20. 10:03 PM - Re: Control Stick Torque Tube Bushing? (Peter Johnson)
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| Subject: | elevator pitch stability |
Hi
Has anyone asked Zentih or Chris H why the XL was designed to be so sensitive to
pitch? everyone that starts flying always remarks on how sensitive it is in
pitch and I would like to give them the designers answer, not what I think he
designed it for..
If you glance into his Design articles he does mention large pitch changes in STOL
aircraft are required but in the XL??
Just interested in the answer as to why, as when I fly it I move very little in
pitch after my arm is locked in place, I just feel it and the pitch changes.
Chris
Zodiac XL
jab3300
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| Subject: | Re: RADIUS PLATES & RADIUS BLOCKS for Grove U/C |
highly advised. find a means to locate the gear centered and keep it center
ed on the fuse.
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Thruster87 <alania@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
From: Thruster87 <alania@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Zenith601-List: RADIUS PLATES & RADIUS BLOCKS for Grove U/C
RADIUS PLATES & RADIUS BLOCKS for Grove U/C any comments!!!! Cheers T87
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le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
Hi Chris,
I think CH has commented several times that one of his design goals
was to have excellent control authority at slow speed. Perhaps this
translates to being very sensitive at high speed for the pitch.
In my short demo ride in the XL I felt the ailerons were also very
effective at slow speed but stiff at normal speeds. So, I suppose
you should ignore my whole comment regarding pitch.
Best regards,
Paul
Getting close
do not archive
At 03:48 AM 2/6/2009, you wrote:
>Has anyone asked Zentih or Chris H why the XL was designed to be so
>sensitive to pitch?
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
thanks I think.
Hey today it was 41 deg C here in Sydney and on Sunday they say its going to be
44 Deg C..
Do not archive..
Chris.
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
Its 41 degrees here too.
Unfortunately, here it is 41 degrees Fahrenheit rather than Celsius.
Paul
do not archive
At 04:09 AM 2/6/2009, you wrote:
>thanks I think.
>Hey today it was 41 deg C here in Sydney and on Sunday they say its
>going to be 44 Deg C..
>Do not archive..
>Chris
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| Subject: | Re: RADIUS PLATES & RADIUS BLOCKS for Grove U/C |
Radius plates are a good idea because they help alleviate the twisting of the bottom
fuselage longerons. You can call Zenair in Canada and order the set that
is used on the AMD 601 with grove gear.
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
to beat a dead horse again -and again, and again, and again - that is a ver
y strong reason to consider tabs on both elevators and make them anti-servo
tabs...
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: elevator pitch stability
Hi Chris,
I think CH has commented several times that one of his design goals was to
have
excellent control authority at slow speed. Perhaps this translates to bein
g
very sensitive at high speed for the pitch.
In my short demo ride in the XL I felt the ailerons were also very effectiv
e at
slow speed but stiff at normal speeds. So, I suppose you should ignore my
whole
comment regarding pitch.
Best regards,
Paul
Getting close
do not archive
At 03:48 AM 2/6/2009, you wrote:
> Has anyone asked Zentih or Chris H why the XL was designed to be so
sensitive to pitch?
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
Hi Chris, do you actually fly when it's over 40 degrees? How do you stand it under
that canopy?
do not archive
--- On Fri, 2/6/09, chris Sinfield <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
From: chris Sinfield <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: elevator pitch stability
<chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
thanks I think.
Hey today it was 41 deg C here in Sydney and on Sunday they say its going to be
44 Deg C..
Do not archive..
Chris.
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
Just because the 601XL isn't quite a STOL as it brothers with STOL in their name
are doesn't mean it isn't designed for VERY slow flight and short landings and
take-offs. I've flown STOL equipped Cessnas that take about as much room to
land as a 601XL with the flaps fully deployed.
Also you must remember that the 601 was designed with that middle stick and from
the one time I flew in a center stick version I remember feeling like I didn't
have as much room to move the stick fore and aft as I did right and left.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
I have been toying with the idea of placing the Y stick elevator cables
closer together on the stick and seeing what that does as far as sensitivity and
elevator travel. Since we have limited the forward stick down elevator travel
I would think it would require more input of the stick to get the same
response and that would be a good thing. After all it just requires drilling 2
holes in the stick for the clevises and could be changed back easily.
Jeff
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
Hi Jeff,
If you move the elevator cables closer together on the stick, I think
that would increase the leverage advantage you have and reduce the
force required to get a given movement on the elevator. It would
increase the movement distance needed on the stick for the same
elevator movement.
If it is your goal to increase the elevator stick forces you might
think about moving the cables further apart on the stick. However,
since I am not a mechanical or aeronautical engineer I have no idea
what "Unintended consequences" that sort of change might make.
I think you are facing a problem with no solution. You probably need
to redesign the whole airplane to get the control feel you seek.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 07:10 AM 2/6/2009, you wrote:
>I have been toying with the idea of placing the Y stick elevator
>cables closer together on the stick and seeing what that does as far
>as sensitivity and elevator travel. Since we have limited the
>forward stick down elevator travel I would think it would require
>more input of the stick to get the same response and that would be a
>good thing. After all it just requires drilling 2 holes in the stick
>for the clevises and could be changed back easily.
>
>Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
In one of Chris Heintz's letters, he mentions that the elevator purposely has a
lot of authority for "great low-speed controllability, excellent ground-handling
in windy conditions, and superior elevator authority in case of incorrect
weight & balance conditions."
The letter is here: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/ch-letter-601xl-3-25-2008.pdf
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
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| Subject: | Re: New style wingtip on 601XL |
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
> the NEW BRS bracket didn't fit had to modify it.
How so, with the new BRS bracket not fitting...?
Was that the front bracket (that doubles as an engine mount attach point) or a
rear bracket (which wasn't included in my kit but I'm fabricating myself)?
Thanks
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability. |
All airplanes need to get used to their particular controls...-- Just p
ractice a little, is part of the learning process.
-
Some can remember when power steering was first installed in cars,- Most
people thought that the low efort required to turn the steering wheel could
- make people over steer and send them out of the road at highway speeds,
- so they asked for normal steering in their new cars for years...- Now
almost all cars are power steering and automatic transmission
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
I rather park in a tight space with power steering...- :-)
Do not archive
--- On Fri, 2/6/09, annken100 <annken100@aol.com> wrote:
From: annken100 <annken100@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: elevator pitch stability
<annken100@aol.com>
In one of Chris Heintz's letters, he mentions that the elevator purposely
has a lot of authority for "great low-speed controllability, excellent
ground-handling in windy conditions, and superior elevator authority in cas
e of
incorrect weight & balance conditions."
The letter is here:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/ch-letter-601xl-3-25-2008.pdf
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228866#228866
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: New style wingtip on 601XL |
Pat
It was the front bracket. I had to cut the front of it and make it like the
older brackets. Zenith had bent it at the wrong angle and it when mounted it
stuck out on the sides of the longerons. The part of it that was bent
wrong was where it bolted to the firewall. I had to cut that part out to allow
it
to pivot closer to the firewall thus bringing it even with the longerons.
Jeff
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability. |
It's not the amount of effort that causes a problem in most cases,
it's the amount of control travel. In a car, as long as the steering
wheel has to be moved the same amount to get the same deflection of
the front tires, there is no problem controlling the car. If you only
had to move the wheel half as far for the same deflection, that would
cause problems. As it is, nearly all cars are designed with about the
same amount of steering wheel travel. That makes it fairly easy to
switch from one car to another without a problem. That's a good thing,
since it seems that a lot of drivers can just barely walk and chew gum
at the same time.
There was a big problem with the early F-16 falcons. The airplane has
a fly-by-wire control system and, in the first few planes, the control
stick did not move at all, it just sensed the force applied to it to
determine how much control deflection to apply. Since the pilots had
no motion feedback from the stick they found it very difficult to
control the airplane. The stick was changed to one that could move a
small amount against spring tension. This gave the pilots enough
motion and force feedback to eliminate the problem.
On Feb 6, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Gary Gower wrote:
> All airplanes need to get used to their particular controls...
> Just practice a little, is part of the learning process.
>
> Some can remember when power steering was first installed in cars,
> Most people thought that the low efort required to turn the steering
> wheel could make people over steer and send them out of the road at
> highway speeds, so they asked for normal steering in their new cars
> for years... Now almost all cars are power steering and automatic
> transmission
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: elevator pitch stability |
annken100 wrote:
> In one of Chris Heintz's letters, he mentions that the elevator purposely has
a lot of authority for "great low-speed controllability, excellent ground-handling
in windy conditions, and superior elevator authority in case of incorrect
weight & balance conditions."
>
> The letter is here: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/ch-letter-601xl-3-25-2008.pdf
>
>
> Ken Pavlou
Which is a great thing to have when that small yet heavy item that you strapped
down at the front of the luggage area when the fuel tanks are full comes loose
and slides 2 1/2 feet back to the rear of the luggage area when they are almost
empty.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228940#228940
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: New style wingtip on 601XL |
Jim, I finished installing the new style wing tips a couple of months ago. At
that time, I don't think there was any print or write ups on it. I also talked
to Caleb about the installation. One thing I knew for a fact was, fiberglass
doesn't usually hold it's molded shape unless it is thick and/or strongly reinforced.
Of course, these wing tips are not thick by any stretch of the imagination
and mine didn't hold their original shape either. If you have trouble
with the parts not lining up or a flat edge not being so flat, use a heat gun
on it as I did. Stay back from the part and heat it up slowly. Gently over
pull it to where you want it to be then hold it there. Be sure to use a shop
towel because its going to be hot. Don't overstress it, otherwise it WILL crack!!
When it cools, it should shrink back some and will be hopefully exactly
where you need it to be.
One other thing I did was, I cut an "L" angle and reinforced the wingtip inside
the wing. I "sandwiched" the bottom of the wingtip between the bottom skin and
the "L" angle (on top). It worked like a charm - I got a nice, straight edge.
My EAA Advisor/DAR suggested I also chalk around the entire wingtip. I bought
a tube of Dupont 7500 chalk at my local auto paint store. It's water soluble
and can be cleaned off with soap and water. It can be painted.
Hope this helps you out.
--------
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)
CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
Starting fuselage
will be Corvair Powered
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Control Stick Torque Tube Bushing? |
Drawing 6-B-17 dated 08/05 shows a 1/4"OD x .028 bushing that goes through the
Torque Tube. This bushing is shown welded into the Torque Tube.
My factory built Torque Tube does not contain this welded-in bushing.
Anybody else have the same thing...?
Is this welded bushing still present in the newest drawings, or is it no longer
needed...?
Thanks,
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Control Stick Torque Tube Bushing? |
Patrick,
My bushing was not welded in but came separately with all the other parts. I
push fitted mine and left it un-welded.
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://zodiac.cpc-world.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Control Stick Torque Tube Bushing?
Drawing 6-B-17 dated 08/05 shows a 1/4"OD x .028 bushing that goes through
the Torque Tube. This bushing is shown welded into the Torque Tube.
My factory built Torque Tube does not contain this welded-in bushing.
Anybody else have the same thing...?
Is this welded bushing still present in the newest drawings, or is it no
longer needed...?
Thanks,
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229014#229014
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