Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:18 AM - Wing locker questions (Jim Belcher)
2. 08:18 AM - Riveting spar caps (dougsire)
3. 08:48 AM - Re: Wing locker questions (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 08:56 AM - Re: Wing locker questions (DaveG601XL)
5. 09:04 AM - Re: Wing locker questions ()
6. 09:34 AM - Re: Wing locker questions (Craig Payne)
7. 11:06 AM - Re: Wing locker questions (ALAN BEYER)
8. 01:18 PM - Re: Riveting spar caps (LarryMcFarland)
9. 01:25 PM - Re: Wing locker questions (LarryMcFarland)
10. 04:44 PM - Re: Riveting spar caps (leinad)
11. 05:45 PM - Re: Wing locker questions (Ron Lendon)
12. 06:02 PM - Re: Wing locker questions (T. Graziano)
13. 06:06 PM - Re: Riveting spar caps (Ron Lendon)
14. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Riveting spar caps (Carlos Sa)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wing locker questions |
I've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith. Meanwhile,
I'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one answer that I
consider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings and the pictorial
a bit lacking in detail, specifically:
1) Are the springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in place with an
A4 rivet?
2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling die or similar to
provide a countersink on the Dzus plate?
3) The Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means they
are likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for this?
--
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
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| Subject: | Riveting spar caps |
For those scratch builders out there, what did you use to drive the 5/32" and 3/16"
AN470AD rivets in the main spar caps? I'm considering using 5/32" solid
rivets in some places and am not sure my rivet gun skills will be predictable
enough to assure that I don't mangle some costly 6061-T6. The hand rivet squeezers
(and even mildly affordable pneumatic ones) only seem to be able to handle
up to 1/8" dia rivets.
Thanks,
Doug Sire
601XL => CH650
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229966#229966
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| Subject: | Re: Wing locker questions |
Hi Jim,
It has been a couple of years since I dealt with these issues, so I
hope my memory isn't too faulty.
I like to use "A" (soft aluminum) solid rivets for things like the
Dzus springs and also for nutplates. They are very easy to set and
sufficiently strong to hold these devices in place. Some times I set
them with a small hammer and backplate. Other times I use a small
press I have mounted on one of my work benches. Keep in mind the
only load the rivets see in normal use is holding the part in place
when it is not in use.
I use a standard countersink to set the factory head flush with the
aluminium sheet on which the rivet is mounted. It doesn't really
matter if the countersink is exactly the right size. If it is too
small a little filing will remove the soft aluminum that is sticking
out. If it is a little too big then there might be a little movement
in the attached part.
There are special capture springs for the Dzus parts. I got some
from Aircraft spruce. They are little round spring steel wires that
fit into the groove on the Dzus connector.
Have fun,
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:21 AM 2/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>I've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith. Meanwhile,
>I'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one answer that I
>consider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings and the pictorial
>a bit lacking in detail, specifically:
>
>1) Are the springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in
>place with an
>A4 rivet?
>
>2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling die or similar to
>provide a countersink on the Dzus plate?
>
>3) The Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means they
>are likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for this?
>--
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing locker questions |
Jim,
Yes, an A4 rivet will hold the Dzus springs in place. The plans did not call out
for flush riveting and I set them like normal. I used a locking washer like
those used on car trim fasteners. I picked them up at Lowes in the hardware
department.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229975#229975
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| Subject: | Wing locker questions |
I followed what was on the Wings DVD from Homebuilt Help. Just as you
said, A4s, and not countersunk. When fit together this doesn't seem to
present a problem. You can get clips for the fasteners, but I've also
heard of using O rings. I've done neither at this point.
Ron
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Zenith601-List: Wing locker questions
From: Jim Belcher <z601@anemicaardvark.com>
<z601@anemicaardvark.com>
I've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith.
Meanwhile,
I'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one answer that I
consider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings and the
pictorial
a bit lacking in detail, specifically:
1) Are the springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in place
with an
A4 rivet?
2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling die or similar
to
provide a countersink on the Dzus plate?
3) The Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means
they
are likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for
this?
--
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Wing locker questions |
I believe some have used tight-fitting washers made from milk jugs to retain
the Dzus fasteners.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:21 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Wing locker questions
I've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith. Meanwhile,
I'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one answer that I
consider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings and the pictorial
a bit lacking in detail, specifically:
1) Are the springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in place with
an
A4 rivet?
2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling die or similar to
provide a countersink on the Dzus plate?
3) The Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means they
are likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for this?
--
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Wing locker questions |
Ron had said that he has heard of using "O" rings on the fasteners to hold
them in place.- I did use "O" rings on my HDS.- They have been in place
for 4 years and work great.- If you use the Clips the holes have to be t
he right size so the clips will not slip through the hole.- I made the ho
les larger than standard so the fastener aligns easyer with the hole in the
wing skin, and then slipped the "O" ring over the fastener.- =0A=0AAL fr
om Oshkosh=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "rsteele@
rjsit.com" <rsteele@rjsit.com>=0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0ASent: T
hursday, February 12, 2009 11:04:36 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith601-List: Wing
com>=0A=0AI followed what was on the Wings DVD from Homebuilt Help.- Just
as you=0Asaid, A4s, and not countersunk.- When fit together this doesn't
seem to=0Apresent a problem.- You can get clips for the fasteners, but I
've also=0Aheard of using O rings.- I've done neither at this point.=0A
=0ARon=0A=0A-------- Original Message --------=0ASubject: Zenith601-List: W
ing locker questions=0AFrom: Jim Belcher <z601@anemicaardvark.com>=0ADate:
Thu, February 12, 2009 9:21 am=0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0A=0A-->
Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher=0A<z601@anemicaardvark.com>
=0A=0AI've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith.=0AM
eanwhile, =0AI'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one ans
wer that I=0A=0Aconsider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings
and the=0Apictorial =0Aa bit lacking in detail, specifically:=0A=0A1) Are t
he springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in place=0Awith an
=0AA4 rivet?=0A=0A2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling
die or similar=0Ato =0Aprovide a countersink on the Dzus plate?=0A=0A3) Th
e Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means=0Athey
=0Aare likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for
=0Athis?=0A-- =0A=0A==================
===0AJim B Belcher=0ABS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science=0AA&P/IA=0A
Retired aerospace technical manager=0A============
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, L
=======
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting spar caps |
Doug,
I used a 3-lb sledge and a flat end punch with a radius die on the
resting side. This only lasted a short dozen rivets and I bought an air
gun that had the proper
dies for the same applied setup less the sledge. Went much more
smoothly, but always recommend you make a sample piece up with 20 rivets
in it to get the idea
first. Suggest this as best way to keep from dinging good surfaces the
wrong way. That's easy to do too. Air power is much easier to control
with practice.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
dougsire wrote:
>
> For those scratch builders out there, what did you use to drive the 5/32" and
3/16" AN470AD rivets in the main spar caps? I'm considering using 5/32" solid
rivets in some places and am not sure my rivet gun skills will be predictable
enough to assure that I don't mangle some costly 6061-T6. The hand rivet
squeezers (and even mildly affordable pneumatic ones) only seem to be able to
handle up to 1/8" dia rivets.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug Sire
> 601XL => CH650
>
> --------
> Doug Sire 601XL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229966#229966
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wing locker questions |
Hi Jim,
I made up some templates to get consistency and also dimplers to handle
the rivets as well as Dzus guides.
The Dzus will hang up on the hole at the back relief for the retaining
washers, so the radius hole is good to do
also. See link for tools and install results. Cowling page, but any
installation is near the same for Dzus.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzustools.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzusdimples.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/Dzusspring.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlnose2.gif
Hope this is useful, A4 Rivets yes. Flush, yes.
You can order a fist full of plastic washers that will hold the Dzus
fastener in place from
Aircraft Spruce as Half Grommets, GP type, usually GP5B, which are
thermoplastic, $0.06 ea.
They work as well as the aluminum types and can also be removed with a
small nose plier if necessary.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Jim Belcher wrote:
>
> I've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith. Meanwhile,
> I'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one answer that I
> consider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings and the pictorial
> a bit lacking in detail, specifically:
>
> 1) Are the springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in place with an
> A4 rivet?
>
> 2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling die or similar to
> provide a countersink on the Dzus plate?
>
> 3) The Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means they
> are likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for this?
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting spar caps |
Doug,
I made a very simple rivetting tool out of wood, a few bolts and piece of .5 ID
tubing. It was the best 1 hour I've spent. I use it to rivet alls sorts of
things. You use a half inch steel rod as the driver, and a hammer to set the
rivets with. I did all my spar rivets with solid rivets (make sure to get the
hardened ones). I'll post a picture. There are a lot more pictures on my website
at:
http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us
Dan
dougsire wrote:
> For those scratch builders out there, what did you use to drive the 5/32" and
3/16" AN470AD rivets in the main spar caps? I'm considering using 5/32" solid
rivets in some places and am not sure my rivet gun skills will be predictable
enough to assure that I don't mangle some costly 6061-T6. The hand rivet
squeezers (and even mildly affordable pneumatic ones) only seem to be able to
handle up to 1/8" dia rivets.
>
> Thanks,
> Doug Sire
> 601XL => CH650
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230033#230033
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivettool_110.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wing locker questions |
The tools LarryMac shows are the same ones I use. I made my own washers from a
milk bottle. I use a punch set now that I acquired from HF. Here is a link
to where I used it for screws:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=32758&row=362
Also here is a detailed listing of the wing locker construction DZUS section in
particular. The washers, both top and bottom, hold the fastener in place and
prevent marring the metal when turning the DZUS head.
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=1683&log=30551&row=232
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230037#230037
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Wing locker questions |
I used "O" rings on the Duez fasteners to keep them attached. I did buy
some "holders", I believe they are plastic type washers, but have never
installed them as the O rings have been holding for over 3 1/2 years.
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 468 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Wing locker questions
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> It has been a couple of years since I dealt with these issues, so I hope
> my memory isn't too faulty.
>
> I like to use "A" (soft aluminum) solid rivets for things like the Dzus
> springs and also for nutplates. They are very easy to set and
> sufficiently strong to hold these devices in place. Some times I set them
> with a small hammer and backplate. Other times I use a small press I have
> mounted on one of my work benches. Keep in mind the only load the rivets
> see in normal use is holding the part in place when it is not in use.
>
> I use a standard countersink to set the factory head flush with the
> aluminium sheet on which the rivet is mounted. It doesn't really matter
> if the countersink is exactly the right size. If it is too small a little
> filing will remove the soft aluminum that is sticking out. If it is a
> little too big then there might be a little movement in the attached part.
>
> There are special capture springs for the Dzus parts. I got some from
> Aircraft spruce. They are little round spring steel wires that fit into
> the groove on the Dzus connector.
>
> Have fun,
>
> Paul
> XL getting close
>
>
> At 08:21 AM 2/12/2009, you wrote:
>><z601@anemicaardvark.com>
>>
>>I've searched the archives without luck, and also queried Zenith.
>>Meanwhile,
>>I'd like to ask the list my questions, to see if I get one answer that I
>>consider better than the others. I found Zenith's drawings and the
>>pictorial
>>a bit lacking in detail, specifically:
>>
>>1) Are the springs for the Dzus fasteners intended to be held in place
>>with an
>>A4 rivet?
>>
>>2) If so, should the rivet be set flush, using a dimpling die or similar
>>to
>>provide a countersink on the Dzus plate?
>>
>>3) The Dzus fasteners provided do not appear to be captive. That means
>>they
>>are likely to fall out when removed. Has anyone come up with a fix for
>>this?
>>--
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting spar caps |
I modified a 1 ton arbor press after seeing this picture in the photo archives:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/HeatonHE@aol.com.05.07.2006/Wing_Spar_3_001.jpg
Herb Heaton had this idea. I made some modifications using a rubber cushion to
hold the metals together before the rivet tools contact the rivet. and using
a 3 or 4 lb. rawhide hammer. No damage to the arbor press with the rawhide hammer
faces, but I did wear out a set of hammer faces doing the center and both
wing spars.
Search for spar in my kitlog to get some ideas.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230040#230040
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting spar caps |
Ron, what's that I see on the workbench?!? The dreaded green unmentionable
?!
GASP!!!
Carlos
do not archive
2009/2/12 Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net>
>
> I modified a 1 ton arbor press after seeing this picture in the photo
> archives:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/HeatonHE@aol.com.05.07.2006/Wing_Spar_3_001.jpg
>
>
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