Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:53 AM - Latest from Zenair Europe (aerobat)
2. 03:12 AM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 05:48 AM - Wing skin stringers (K Dilks)
4. 06:11 AM - Suitable filler (K Dilks)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Wing skin stringers (Ronald Steele)
6. 07:23 AM - Re: Wing skin stringers (Gig Giacona)
7. 07:42 AM - Re: Suitable filler (Bryan Martin)
8. 08:02 AM - Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants (AZFlyer)
9. 01:10 PM - Re: Wing skin stringers (Dave Austin)
10. 01:51 PM - Re: Wing skin stringers (LarryMcFarland)
11. 02:47 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Terry Phillips)
12. 03:25 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Sabrina)
13. 03:42 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Gary Gower)
14. 04:07 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (jaybannist@cs.com)
15. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (LarryMcFarland)
16. 07:17 PM - Re: Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants (ZodieRocket)
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| Subject: | Latest from Zenair Europe |
Here is a link to the latest Zenair Europe news, includes letter sent to UK owners
and the designers reply.
http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page958.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230625#230625
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Latest from Zenair Europe |
Thank you for posting that information.
I wish I knew how to interpret all the changes and responses
discussed in the two letters. I understand what was exactly stated,
but I don't know what XL variations (dual control, piano hinge, etc.)
were considered.
I feel the notion of aileron flutter is out of the question for
hinge-less XLs. On the other hand, I don't know how the reinforced
wing attach brackets might play with the history of in-flight wing
attachment failures - even in the USA. I hope Chris will clear all
this up for us when these flight tests are completed and the changes published.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 01:52 AM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
>Here is a link to the latest Zenair Europe news, includes letter
>sent to UK owners and the designers reply.
>
>http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page958.htm
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Wing skin stringers |
I am now fitting a row of lower skin stringers ( anti oil canning ).
I have 2024 T3 L sections made up.My question to all is on ZAC planes they say
100mm rivet spacing on the upper skin stringers but to me that is way to big
on a A4 rivet.
Im looking at doing 52mm spacing but then I run into odd numbers between the outer
ribs.
Any thoughts on this, I will fit 2 rows to the upper skin also.
Thanks
kev
--------
Austria .............
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230639#230639
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I have a now very slight but impossible to remove mark on my LE skin forward of
were the filler cap will go.
Does any one know what brand or type of filler I could use to hide it. It needs
to be only a very thin skim to make it go. Do you put the stuff on top of the
etch primer?
Im really annoyed about making this mistake.
Kev
--------
Austria .............
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230640#230640
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wing skin stringers |
The 650 plans don't show the anti-oil canning L channel on the bottom
of the wing. I think it's considered cosmetic only, so there really
is no point.
I suppose it's possible that channel on the bottom might actually take
load. I wouldn't like to guess about rivet spacing for such an
application.
Ron
On Feb 17, 2009, at 8:47 AM, K Dilks wrote:
> <kevin.dilks@liwest.at>
>
> I am now fitting a row of lower skin stringers ( anti oil canning ).
> I have 2024 T3 L sections made up.My question to all is on ZAC
> planes they say 100mm rivet spacing on the upper skin stringers but
> to me that is way to big on a A4 rivet.
> Im looking at doing 52mm spacing but then I run into odd numbers
> between the outer ribs.
> Any thoughts on this, I will fit 2 rows to the upper skin also.
> Thanks
> kev
>
> --------
> Austria .............
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230639#230639
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing skin stringers |
K Dilks wrote:
> I am now fitting a row of lower skin stringers ( anti oil canning ).
> I have 2024 T3 L sections made up.My question to all is on ZAC planes they say
100mm rivet spacing on the upper skin stringers but to me that is way to big
on a A4 rivet.
> Im looking at doing 52mm spacing but then I run into odd numbers between the
outer ribs.
> Any thoughts on this, I will fit 2 rows to the upper skin also.
> Thanks
> kev
This mod isn't designed to add any strength to the wing just to keep it from oil
canning. I think the logical option would be to go with the widest spacing that
will fit evenly. If you find that they are spaced to far apart to do what
they are there to correct then add a rivet half way between the first set.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230653#230653
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Suitable filler |
You might be able to use a spot putty. It's designed for filling in
small scratches and pits to get a smooth surface for final finishing.
It comes in a small tube and is applied with a rubber spreader in thin
layers and then sanded smooth after drying. It can be applied over the
initial primer coat. This stuff fills in pretty quickly and is very
easy to use. It usually takes only one or two coats to get good
results. Here in the U.S. it's available in most auto parts and
hardware stores under the Bondo brand (Bondo glazing & spot putty).
You can also order it online from www.acehardwaresuperstore.com and
other sites. Other companies make similar products.
You could also use a sandable filler primer, but that might take
several coats to do the job.
>
> <kevin.dilks@liwest.at>
>
> I have a now very slight but impossible to remove mark on my LE skin
> forward of were the filler cap will go.
> Does any one know what brand or type of filler I could use to hide
> it. It needs to be only a very thin skim to make it go. Do you put
> the stuff on top of the etch primer?
> Im really annoyed about making this mistake.
> Kev
>
> --------
> Austria .............
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants |
List,
Am considering mounting the Grove brakes on Forward side of mains, (per the Grove
instructions) versus the rear (per ZAC). I am installing wheel pants as well.
Does this result in major problems? Interference?
Operation?
Thanks in advance.
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230667#230667
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wing skin stringers |
Is it wise to put wo diferent alloys next to each other? Why not go with
6061-T6 stringers?
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing skin stringers |
If you prime them, Dave,
the difference in alloy won't make a difference. Better to prime even
between alloys that are alike.
Moisture in today's condensate contains minute amounts of material that
corrodes aluminum.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Dave Austin wrote:
> <daveaustin2@primus.ca>
>
> Is it wise to put wo diferent alloys next to each other? Why not go
> with 6061-T6 stringers?
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Latest from Zenair Europe |
Paul
There have been at least two instances of aileron flutter in hinge-less
601XL's.
In both of these incidents, the pilots were very experienced and their
descriptions are graphic and detailed. I have just obtained permission to
post their descriptions (w/o names or identifying info) to the ZBAG file
section. See:
http://tinyurl.com/bthuc9
&
http://tinyurl.com/djehdw
You probably need to join the ZBAG forum to access the files, but that is
painless. I strongly recommend that all 601XL and 650 builders read these
descriptions. After you do, I think you will agree with me that it's not
wise to count on hinge-less ailerons to prevent the occurrence of flutter
in your 601XL.
Terry
At 03:12 AM 2/17/2009 -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>Thank you for posting that information.
>
>I wish I knew how to interpret all the changes and responses discussed in
>the two letters. I understand what was exactly stated, but I don't know
>what XL variations (dual control, piano hinge, etc.) were considered.
>
>I feel the notion of aileron flutter is out of the question for hinge-less
>XLs. On the other hand, I don't know how the reinforced wing attach
>brackets might play with the history of in-flight wing attachment failures
>- even in the USA. I hope Chris will clear all this up for us when these
>flight tests are completed and the changes published.
>
>Paul
>XL getting close
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Latest from Zenair Europe |
"There have been at least two instances of aileron flutter in hinge-less 601XL's."
Terry, that is a strong statement.
Maybe I misread your two posts, but neither pilot saw aileron flutter, both noticed
wing flutter, the later does not necessitate the former... correct?
No doubt one pilot has an opinion it was aileron flutter, but he "did not observe
movement of the aileron relative to the wing" the other "did not notice" such
movement either.
Wings can flutter because over overspeed, improperly torqued spar bolts, and many
other ways without it pointing to aileron flutter. If the cables were loose
on a first flight, maybe something else was loose too. The warm air would
have tightened not loosened the cables.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230759#230759
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Latest from Zenair Europe |
Hello Paul,
-
Just ask yourself- this question(s):- How many hours (total-to date)
-the 601XL- Demo (the white and red one) has?-
-
Try to imagine the amount of-demo flights with prospects every year, also
imagine the-long XCountry flights to Flyins and Airshows ALL over USA,
- under most VFR conditions,- They sure had even gone though some sever
e turbulence.
-
Do you think that they will continue with this dayly rutines if they had do
ubts about the design,-- As Mr Heintz says in his letter,-now is the
most tested airplane in its class.
-
This "changes" I think are only for them (UK),- las century aviation hist
ory knows that UK aviation is "like a spoiled child"-needs special treatm
ent only for them... not even ultralights are the same as in the rest of Eu
rope or the world... Go figure.
-
Think of this:- I am sure that if anyone has fear to drive, even if he or
she .drives a Hummer or a 2 seater little Smart,- will be terrified to d
rive in any of them.-
-
Are you fear to drive your car? How many fatalities the model of car you dr
ive has?- Does this makes it unsafe for you to drive it?- Needs special
mods from the Car Factory for you to drive it tomorrow? Or your car needs
only to be driven and mantained by you with normal care to avoid an acciden
t?
-
Nothing but our own mind can give us self confidence.-
-
I hope and pray, that never be another aircraft accident of any kind in the
World!- Reality is- ther is no waranty. But I will still fly as much a
s possible to enjoy my hobby.
Aviation, Comercial,-Genral or Sport, will never be "cero accidents" ever
!- is human to fail, once in a while.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
-Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S- 235 hrs.
Building 601XL- Jab 3300- (no fold wings option :-)
-
--- On Tue, 2/17/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe
Thank you for posting that information.
I wish I knew how to interpret all the changes and responses discussed in t
he
two letters. I understand what was exactly stated, but I don't know what X
L
variations (dual control, piano hinge, etc.) were considered.
I feel the notion of aileron flutter is out of the question for hinge-less
XLs.
On the other hand, I don't know how the reinforced wing attach brackets
might play with the history of in-flight wing attachment failures - even in
the
USA. I hope Chris will clear all this up for us when these flight tests ar
e
completed and the changes published.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 01:52 AM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
> Here is a link to the latest Zenair Europe news, includes letter sent to
UK owners and the designers reply.
>
> http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page958.htm
>
=0A=0A=0A
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Latest from Zenair Europe |
Very wise words from "South of the Border".? Thanks Gary !
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe
Hello Paul,
?
Just ask yourself? this question(s):? How many hours (total?to date) ?the 601XL?
Demo (the white and red one) has??
?
Try to imagine the amount of?demo flights with prospects every year, also imagine
the?long XCountry flights to Flyins and Airshows ALL over USA,? under most
VFR conditions,? They sure had even gone though some severe turbulence.
?
Do you think that they will continue with this dayly rutines if they had doubts
about the design,?? As Mr Heintz says in his letter,?now is the most tested airplane
in its class.
?
This "changes" I think are only for them (UK),? las century aviation history knows
that UK aviation is "like a spoiled child"?needs special treatment only for
them... not even ultralights are the same as in the rest of Europe or the world...
Go figure.
?
Think of this:? I am sure that if anyone has fear to drive, even if he or she .drives
a Hummer or a 2 seater little Smart,? will be terrified to drive in any
of them.?
?
Are you fear to drive your car? How many fatalities the model of car you drive
has?? Does this makes it unsafe for you to drive it?? Needs special mods from
the Car Factory for you to drive it tomorrow? Or your car needs only to be driven
and mantained by you with normal care to avoid an accident?
?
Nothing but our own mind can give us self confidence.?
?
I hope and pray, that never be another aircraft accident of any kind in the World!?
Reality is? ther is no waranty. But I will still fly as much as possible
to enjoy my hobby.
Aviation, Comercial,?Genral or Sport, will never be "cero accidents" ever!? is
human to fail, once in a while.
?
Saludos
Gary Gower
?Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S? 235 hrs.
Building 601XL? Jab 3300? (no fold wings option :-)
?
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Latest from Zenair Europe |
I would second opinions that flutter may have actually been suspected or
felt, seen or whatever. I feel this is so rare that it is hardly a good
item for consideration
as applies to the wing folding issue. The conditions just don't match
up to flutter as reported. Having seen the center section spar damage,
it was apparent that the
principal failure progressed from inboard and somewhere between the wing
attachments to the fuselage. Cause should be other than flutter though.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Sabrina wrote:
>
> "There have been at least two instances of aileron flutter in hinge-less 601XL's."
>
> Terry, that is a strong statement.
>
> Maybe I misread your two posts, but neither pilot saw aileron flutter, both noticed
wing flutter, the later does not necessitate the former... correct?
>
> No doubt one pilot has an opinion it was aileron flutter, but he "did not observe
movement of the aileron relative to the wing" the other "did not notice"
such movement either.
>
> Wings can flutter because over overspeed, improperly torqued spar bolts, and
many other ways without it pointing to aileron flutter. If the cables were loose
on a first flight, maybe something else was loose too. The warm air would
have tightened not loosened the cables.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230759#230759
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants |
2009 Sun-N-Fun BBQ Sign up
http://www.zenith.aero/xn/detail/2606393:Event:11006
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912,
STOL CH750 Just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
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