---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/17/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:53 AM - Latest from Zenair Europe (aerobat) 2. 03:12 AM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 05:48 AM - Wing skin stringers (K Dilks) 4. 06:11 AM - Suitable filler (K Dilks) 5. 06:51 AM - Re: Wing skin stringers (Ronald Steele) 6. 07:23 AM - Re: Wing skin stringers (Gig Giacona) 7. 07:42 AM - Re: Suitable filler (Bryan Martin) 8. 08:02 AM - Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants (AZFlyer) 9. 01:10 PM - Re: Wing skin stringers (Dave Austin) 10. 01:51 PM - Re: Wing skin stringers (LarryMcFarland) 11. 02:47 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Terry Phillips) 12. 03:25 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Sabrina) 13. 03:42 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (Gary Gower) 14. 04:07 PM - Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (jaybannist@cs.com) 15. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Latest from Zenair Europe (LarryMcFarland) 16. 07:17 PM - Re: Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants (ZodieRocket) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe From: "aerobat" Here is a link to the latest Zenair Europe news, includes letter sent to UK owners and the designers reply. http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page958.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230625#230625 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:47 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe Thank you for posting that information. I wish I knew how to interpret all the changes and responses discussed in the two letters. I understand what was exactly stated, but I don't know what XL variations (dual control, piano hinge, etc.) were considered. I feel the notion of aileron flutter is out of the question for hinge-less XLs. On the other hand, I don't know how the reinforced wing attach brackets might play with the history of in-flight wing attachment failures - even in the USA. I hope Chris will clear all this up for us when these flight tests are completed and the changes published. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 01:52 AM 2/17/2009, you wrote: >Here is a link to the latest Zenair Europe news, includes letter >sent to UK owners and the designers reply. > >http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page958.htm > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Wing skin stringers From: "K Dilks" I am now fitting a row of lower skin stringers ( anti oil canning ). I have 2024 T3 L sections made up.My question to all is on ZAC planes they say 100mm rivet spacing on the upper skin stringers but to me that is way to big on a A4 rivet. Im looking at doing 52mm spacing but then I run into odd numbers between the outer ribs. Any thoughts on this, I will fit 2 rows to the upper skin also. Thanks kev -------- Austria ............. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230639#230639 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Suitable filler From: "K Dilks" I have a now very slight but impossible to remove mark on my LE skin forward of were the filler cap will go. Does any one know what brand or type of filler I could use to hide it. It needs to be only a very thin skim to make it go. Do you put the stuff on top of the etch primer? Im really annoyed about making this mistake. Kev -------- Austria ............. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230640#230640 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:08 AM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Wing skin stringers The 650 plans don't show the anti-oil canning L channel on the bottom of the wing. I think it's considered cosmetic only, so there really is no point. I suppose it's possible that channel on the bottom might actually take load. I wouldn't like to guess about rivet spacing for such an application. Ron On Feb 17, 2009, at 8:47 AM, K Dilks wrote: > > > I am now fitting a row of lower skin stringers ( anti oil canning ). > I have 2024 T3 L sections made up.My question to all is on ZAC > planes they say 100mm rivet spacing on the upper skin stringers but > to me that is way to big on a A4 rivet. > Im looking at doing 52mm spacing but then I run into odd numbers > between the outer ribs. > Any thoughts on this, I will fit 2 rows to the upper skin also. > Thanks > kev > > -------- > Austria ............. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230639#230639 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Wing skin stringers From: "Gig Giacona" K Dilks wrote: > I am now fitting a row of lower skin stringers ( anti oil canning ). > I have 2024 T3 L sections made up.My question to all is on ZAC planes they say 100mm rivet spacing on the upper skin stringers but to me that is way to big on a A4 rivet. > Im looking at doing 52mm spacing but then I run into odd numbers between the outer ribs. > Any thoughts on this, I will fit 2 rows to the upper skin also. > Thanks > kev This mod isn't designed to add any strength to the wing just to keep it from oil canning. I think the logical option would be to go with the widest spacing that will fit evenly. If you find that they are spaced to far apart to do what they are there to correct then add a rivet half way between the first set. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230653#230653 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:37 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Suitable filler You might be able to use a spot putty. It's designed for filling in small scratches and pits to get a smooth surface for final finishing. It comes in a small tube and is applied with a rubber spreader in thin layers and then sanded smooth after drying. It can be applied over the initial primer coat. This stuff fills in pretty quickly and is very easy to use. It usually takes only one or two coats to get good results. Here in the U.S. it's available in most auto parts and hardware stores under the Bondo brand (Bondo glazing & spot putty). You can also order it online from www.acehardwaresuperstore.com and other sites. Other companies make similar products. You could also use a sandable filler primer, but that might take several coats to do the job. > > > > I have a now very slight but impossible to remove mark on my LE skin > forward of were the filler cap will go. > Does any one know what brand or type of filler I could use to hide > it. It needs to be only a very thin skim to make it go. Do you put > the stuff on top of the etch primer? > Im really annoyed about making this mistake. > Kev > > -------- > Austria ............. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants From: "AZFlyer" List, Am considering mounting the Grove brakes on Forward side of mains, (per the Grove instructions) versus the rear (per ZAC). I am installing wheel pants as well. Does this result in major problems? Interference? Operation? Thanks in advance. Mike -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230667#230667 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:42 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Wing skin stringers Is it wise to put wo diferent alloys next to each other? Why not go with 6061-T6 stringers? Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:31 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Wing skin stringers If you prime them, Dave, the difference in alloy won't make a difference. Better to prime even between alloys that are alike. Moisture in today's condensate contains minute amounts of material that corrodes aluminum. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Dave Austin wrote: > > > Is it wise to put wo diferent alloys next to each other? Why not go > with 6061-T6 stringers? > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:52 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe Paul There have been at least two instances of aileron flutter in hinge-less 601XL's. In both of these incidents, the pilots were very experienced and their descriptions are graphic and detailed. I have just obtained permission to post their descriptions (w/o names or identifying info) to the ZBAG file section. See: http://tinyurl.com/bthuc9 & http://tinyurl.com/djehdw You probably need to join the ZBAG forum to access the files, but that is painless. I strongly recommend that all 601XL and 650 builders read these descriptions. After you do, I think you will agree with me that it's not wise to count on hinge-less ailerons to prevent the occurrence of flutter in your 601XL. Terry At 03:12 AM 2/17/2009 -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote: >Thank you for posting that information. > >I wish I knew how to interpret all the changes and responses discussed in >the two letters. I understand what was exactly stated, but I don't know >what XL variations (dual control, piano hinge, etc.) were considered. > >I feel the notion of aileron flutter is out of the question for hinge-less >XLs. On the other hand, I don't know how the reinforced wing attach >brackets might play with the history of in-flight wing attachment failures >- even in the USA. I hope Chris will clear all this up for us when these >flight tests are completed and the changes published. > >Paul >XL getting close Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Latest from Zenair Europe From: "Sabrina" "There have been at least two instances of aileron flutter in hinge-less 601XL's." Terry, that is a strong statement. Maybe I misread your two posts, but neither pilot saw aileron flutter, both noticed wing flutter, the later does not necessitate the former... correct? No doubt one pilot has an opinion it was aileron flutter, but he "did not observe movement of the aileron relative to the wing" the other "did not notice" such movement either. Wings can flutter because over overspeed, improperly torqued spar bolts, and many other ways without it pointing to aileron flutter. If the cables were loose on a first flight, maybe something else was loose too. The warm air would have tightened not loosened the cables. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230759#230759 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:20 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe Hello Paul, - Just ask yourself- this question(s):- How many hours (total-to date) -the 601XL- Demo (the white and red one) has?- - Try to imagine the amount of-demo flights with prospects every year, also imagine the-long XCountry flights to Flyins and Airshows ALL over USA, - under most VFR conditions,- They sure had even gone though some sever e turbulence. - Do you think that they will continue with this dayly rutines if they had do ubts about the design,-- As Mr Heintz says in his letter,-now is the most tested airplane in its class. - This "changes" I think are only for them (UK),- las century aviation hist ory knows that UK aviation is "like a spoiled child"-needs special treatm ent only for them... not even ultralights are the same as in the rest of Eu rope or the world... Go figure. - Think of this:- I am sure that if anyone has fear to drive, even if he or she .drives a Hummer or a 2 seater little Smart,- will be terrified to d rive in any of them.- - Are you fear to drive your car? How many fatalities the model of car you dr ive has?- Does this makes it unsafe for you to drive it?- Needs special mods from the Car Factory for you to drive it tomorrow? Or your car needs only to be driven and mantained by you with normal care to avoid an acciden t? - Nothing but our own mind can give us self confidence.- - I hope and pray, that never be another aircraft accident of any kind in the World!- Reality is- ther is no waranty. But I will still fly as much a s possible to enjoy my hobby. Aviation, Comercial,-Genral or Sport, will never be "cero accidents" ever !- is human to fail, once in a while. - Saludos Gary Gower -Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S- 235 hrs. Building 601XL- Jab 3300- (no fold wings option :-) - --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Paul Mulwitz wrote: From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe Thank you for posting that information. I wish I knew how to interpret all the changes and responses discussed in t he two letters. I understand what was exactly stated, but I don't know what X L variations (dual control, piano hinge, etc.) were considered. I feel the notion of aileron flutter is out of the question for hinge-less XLs. On the other hand, I don't know how the reinforced wing attach brackets might play with the history of in-flight wing attachment failures - even in the USA. I hope Chris will clear all this up for us when these flight tests ar e completed and the changes published. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 01:52 AM 2/17/2009, you wrote: > Here is a link to the latest Zenair Europe news, includes letter sent to UK owners and the designers reply. > > http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page958.htm > =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe From: jaybannist@cs.com Very wise words from "South of the Border".? Thanks Gary ! -----Original Message----- From: Gary Gower Sent: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 5:41 pm Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Latest from Zenair Europe Hello Paul, ? Just ask yourself? this question(s):? How many hours (total?to date) ?the 601XL? Demo (the white and red one) has?? ? Try to imagine the amount of?demo flights with prospects every year, also imagine the?long XCountry flights to Flyins and Airshows ALL over USA,? under most VFR conditions,? They sure had even gone though some severe turbulence. ? Do you think that they will continue with this dayly rutines if they had doubts about the design,?? As Mr Heintz says in his letter,?now is the most tested airplane in its class. ? This "changes" I think are only for them (UK),? las century aviation history knows that UK aviation is "like a spoiled child"?needs special treatment only for them... not even ultralights are the same as in the rest of Europe or the world... Go figure. ? Think of this:? I am sure that if anyone has fear to drive, even if he or she .drives a Hummer or a 2 seater little Smart,? will be terrified to drive in any of them.? ? Are you fear to drive your car? How many fatalities the model of car you drive has?? Does this makes it unsafe for you to drive it?? Needs special mods from the Car Factory for you to drive it tomorrow? Or your car needs only to be driven and mantained by you with normal care to avoid an accident? ? Nothing but our own mind can give us self confidence.? ? I hope and pray, that never be another aircraft accident of any kind in the World!? Reality is? ther is no waranty. But I will still fly as much as possible to enjoy my hobby. Aviation, Comercial,?Genral or Sport, will never be "cero accidents" ever!? is human to fail, once in a while. ? Saludos Gary Gower ?Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S? 235 hrs. Building 601XL? Jab 3300? (no fold wings option :-) ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:55 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Latest from Zenair Europe I would second opinions that flutter may have actually been suspected or felt, seen or whatever. I feel this is so rare that it is hardly a good item for consideration as applies to the wing folding issue. The conditions just don't match up to flutter as reported. Having seen the center section spar damage, it was apparent that the principal failure progressed from inboard and somewhere between the wing attachments to the fuselage. Cause should be other than flutter though. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Sabrina wrote: > > "There have been at least two instances of aileron flutter in hinge-less 601XL's." > > Terry, that is a strong statement. > > Maybe I misread your two posts, but neither pilot saw aileron flutter, both noticed wing flutter, the later does not necessitate the former... correct? > > No doubt one pilot has an opinion it was aileron flutter, but he "did not observe movement of the aileron relative to the wing" the other "did not notice" such movement either. > > Wings can flutter because over overspeed, improperly torqued spar bolts, and many other ways without it pointing to aileron flutter. If the cables were loose on a first flight, maybe something else was loose too. The warm air would have tightened not loosened the cables. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230759#230759 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:44 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Brakes on a 601XL with Wheel pants 2009 Sun-N-Fun BBQ Sign up http://www.zenith.aero/xn/detail/2606393:Event:11006 Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912, STOL CH750 Just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.