Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:02 AM - My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Frank Derfler)
2. 05:12 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Frank Derfler)
3. 05:17 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Terry Turnquist)
4. 05:19 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Iberplanes IGL)
5. 05:23 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Paul Mulwitz)
6. 05:33 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Jay Maynard)
7. 06:21 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Martin Pohl)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Elden Jacobson)
9. 10:04 AM - Initial Z (lwinger)
10. 11:22 AM - Re: Initial Z (hansriet)
11. 11:24 AM - Re: Initial Z (Gig Giacona)
12. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: Initial Z (Iberplanes IGL)
13. 11:39 AM - Re: Initial Z (hansriet)
14. 01:38 PM - Sun n Fun (Paul Mulwitz)
15. 01:38 PM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Walter Carey)
16. 02:53 PM - Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations (Iberplanes IGL)
17. 03:39 PM - aileron flutter (jaybannist@cs.com)
18. 04:42 PM - First real result of the NTSB report (Jay Maynard)
19. 04:48 PM - Re: First real result of the NTSB report (hansriet)
20. 06:16 PM - Mass balancing of Ailerons - How to (eddies)
21. 07:58 PM - Re: aileron flutter (Ron Lendon)
22. 08:07 PM - zbag group (bfriedman.zenith)
23. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: aileron flutter (Paul Mulwitz)
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| Subject: | My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
I qualify as a government bureaucrat. I spent a decade inside the Beltway
and more decades working around it. I am a happy AMD-made 601XL owner who
has 250 hours on his airplane. My initial observation is that the NTSB's
Safety Recommendation is one of the best written documents I've seen come
out of the Federal Government. That doesn't apply to the press release,
which I judge was written by some PR person and was a CYA exercise. The
report is as cogent and thoughtful a recommendation as a government can
produce. It is well written too.
Here are some of my conclusions:
- In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is shouting, "Put
Mass Balanced Ailerons on those birds."
- Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and that is the
solution we will get.
- We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget about
nit-picking, carping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on how to get
mass-balanced ailerons on our birds ASAP.
- Hingeless ailerons? I'm not qualified to comment technically, but
bureaucratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless ailerons is
like asking them to contemplate the impact of angels on the economy. They
won't know what to say.
- I'm joining ZBAG immediately. That group has done good work and I
should have joined sooner. Being cheap was being stupid.
- I'm reading up on how to "pickle" an engine
- I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane is
grounded.
- We can't say we didn't see this coming.
- I'm grounded and unhappy, but I think the NTSB did a good piece of
work. We have to get those hingeless ailerons flying.
Frank Derfler
AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or
(blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com
Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
As I finished my note, someone walked into my office. My fingers types
"hingeless" ailerons and clicked on the "send" button all on their own.
They should have typed "Mass Balanced" ailerons. We need to get
mass-balanced ailerons out on the ends of the wings and flying ASAP!
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Frank Derfler <fderfler@gmail.com> wrote:
> I qualify as a government bureaucrat. I spent a decade inside the Beltway
> and more decades working around it. I am a happy AMD-made 601XL owner who
> has 250 hours on his airplane. My initial observation is that the NTSB's
> Safety Recommendation is one of the best written documents I've seen come
> out of the Federal Government. That doesn't apply to the press release,
> which I judge was written by some PR person and was a CYA exercise. The
> report is as cogent and thoughtful a recommendation as a government can
> produce. It is well written too.
> Here are some of my conclusions:
>
>
> - In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is shouting, "Put
> Mass Balanced Ailerons on those birds."
> - Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and that is
> the solution we will get.
> - We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget about
> nit-picking, carping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on how to get
> mass-balanced ailerons on our birds ASAP.
> - Hingeless ailerons? I'm not qualified to comment technically, but
> bureaucratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless ailerons is
> like asking them to contemplate the impact of angels on the economy. They
> won't know what to say.
> - I'm joining ZBAG immediately. That group has done good work and I
> should have joined sooner. Being cheap was being stupid.
> - I'm reading up on how to "pickle" an engine
> - I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane is
> grounded.
> - We can't say we didn't see this coming.
> - I'm grounded and unhappy, but I think the NTSB did a good piece of
> work. We have to get those hingeless ailerons flying.
>
>
> Frank Derfler
> AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
>
>
> See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or
> (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com
>
> Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com
>
--
Twitter! Follow me at http://Twitter.com/Fderfler
See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com.
See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or
(blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com
Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
Well Said Frank.
do not archive
--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Frank Derfler <fderfler@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Frank Derfler <fderfler@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations
I qualify as a government bureaucrat. -I spent a decade inside the Beltwa
y and more decades working around it. -I am a happy AMD-made 601XL owner
who has 250 hours on his airplane. -My initial observation is that the NT
SB's Safety Recommendation is one of the best written documents I've seen c
ome out of the Federal Government. -That doesn't apply to the press relea
se, which I judge was written by some PR person and was a CYA exercise. The
report is as cogent and thoughtful a recommendation as a government can pr
oduce. -It is well written too. -
Here are some of my conclusions:-
In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is shouting, "Put Ma
ss Balanced Ailerons on those birds." -
Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and that is the solu
tion we will get.We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget abo
ut nit-picking, carping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on how to
get mass-balanced ailerons on our birds ASAP.-
Hingeless ailerons? -I'm not qualified to comment technically, but bureau
cratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless ailerons is like a
sking them to contemplate the impact of angels on the economy. -They won'
t know what to say.
I'm joining ZBAG immediately. -That group has done good work and I should
have joined sooner. -Being cheap was being stupid.-I'm reading up on h
ow to "pickle" an engineI'm calling my insurance company and telling them t
he airplane is grounded. -
We can't say we didn't see this coming.-I'm grounded and unhappy, but I t
hink the NTSB did a good piece of work. -We have to get those hingeless a
ilerons flying. -
Frank Derfler
AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
See my discussion of -All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (
blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com -
Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
Frank,
If you want to subscribe to ZBAG you are Welcome. Regarding PH or Hingeless
wev=B4ve discussed that on ZBAG and there are a 50-50% of accidents so PH o
r
not is not relevant.
One comment, our XL would be the most tested home built plane in the sky
when all the nightmare ends. So be optimistic.
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
Hi Frank,
I spent a few years in the gumint business myself. I agree with all
you said and have grounded my plane without waiting for the FAA
bureaucrats to make up their "Minds".
I'm no expert on pickling engines, but the impression I got is all
you really need to do is spray some special goop into each cylinder
to prevent corrosion. When you are ready to use the engine again,
just blow the goop out by removing a spark plug in each cylinder and
cranking the engine a few times around. I suspect you can find the
special goop at any aviation oil distributor.
Paul
XL grounded
At 04:58 AM 4/15/2009, you wrote:
> * In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is
> shouting, "Put Mass Balanced Ailerons on those birds."
> * Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and
> that is the solution we will get.
> * We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget about
> nit-picking, carping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on
> how to get mass-balanced ailerons on our birds ASAP.
> * Hingeless ailerons? I'm not qualified to comment technically,
> but bureaucratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless
> ailerons is like asking them to contemplate the impact of angels on
> the economy. They won't know what to say.
> * I'm joining ZBAG immediately. That group has done good work
> and I should have joined sooner. Being cheap was being stupid.
> * I'm reading up on how to "pickle" an engine
> * I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane
> is grounded.
> * We can't say we didn't see this coming.
> * I'm grounded and unhappy, but I think the NTSB did a good
> piece of work. We have to get those hingeless ailerons flying.
>
>Frank Derfler
>AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 07:58:56AM -0400, Frank Derfler wrote:
> - I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane is
> grounded.
...and Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> I spent a few years in the gumint business myself. I agree with all you
> said and have grounded my plane without waiting for the FAA bureaucrats to
> make up their "Minds".
Far be it from me to tell others how to manage their own risk. As for me, I
thought about all of this a long time ago, when flutter first came to the
fore as a possible cause of the breakups. I see no particular reason to
change my thinking now.
I plan to keep flying my Zodiac unless and until the FAA or AMD issue orders
to ground the aircraft. I do keep on top of my aileron cable tensions per
the AMD service bulletin - though the NTSB letters reveal those tensions
were developed on the CH2000 Alarus, not the Zodiac - and make sure there's
tension on the cables during preflight; keep the airspeed within the green
arc unless the air's absolutely glass smooth; and slow to maneuvering speed
in anything more than slight turbulence. I believe these steps will minimize
the risk of flutter until a permanent fix can be found.
That fix is likely to be aileron mass balances. Every aeronautical engineer
I've discussed the issue with has expressed surprise at the Zodiac's
approach to flutter prevention, and said that it wouldn't likely be
considered acceptable.
Life is risk. Aviation is all about managing risk. Yes, I could die in my
airplane tomorrow. I'm more likely to do it by doing something stupid that
kills lots of pilots, rather than by having my airplane come apart around
me. I'm even more likely to die in my car on the way to the airport, or in
bed, or lots of other ways. I do what I can to manage risk, and then I quit
worrying about it.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
I completely agree with you, Alberto! After the necessary tests are performed and
a fix is available (something similar to what UK LAA is testing at the moment),
the airplane will be one of the most thoroughly tested LSA/homebuilt planes.
That gives some confidence!
However I am not completely sure of what a (possible) US grounding would/will trigger.
So far the response by Zenair is poor and they seem to assume that all
XL-accidents were due to pilot-error, possible sub-standard material or improper
maintenance of the aircraft. Zenair Europe committed to conduct different
tests (including a GVT and load tests) for the german authorities by the end of
March - nevertheless there are no test results available by now. In addition
I (and I believe others) did not get an answer by Zenair to our email why the
German tests were not extended to meet LSA weight standard.
I hope that the current NTSB recommendation will change Zenair's mind regarding
the importance of forthright, uncensored communication and immediate and through
testing of the 601 XL!
I continue working on my 601XL project as I am still (and even more now) confident
that Zenair is assuming their responsibilty! ZBAG has given lots of input
to the NTSB (that's why IMHO the NTSB paper is of such good quality!) and I am
sure ZBAG could/should support Zenair in doing the tests. I hope that Zenair
is taking this opportunity and finally starts working constructively together
with ZBAG!
Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239303#239303
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
Having already read (with care) the NTSB report, I fully concur, Frank; thi
s is a very useful summary of where we seem to be. And as has been suggeste
d by several others on the list, we owe ABAG a great deal of thanks; I chos
e not to join originally-because I did not see what such a group could do
that Zenith could not do, had not already done,-better. But when Terry s
uggested some weeks ago that Zenith/Europe extend the tests, then being don
e, to cover our xls here, I both wrote to Michael Heinz (as did a number of
others, I assume) to urge this extension and agreed to particpate financia
lly in ABAG if that would help. The offer obviously still stands. I suppose
, meanwhile, that I will work on the panel (or paint the wheelpants).
-
Next month's Cloverdale Open House ought to be quite a gathering, especiall
y if we all have to arrive by auto.
-
Elden Jacobson
xl/3300
--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Frank Derfler <fderfler@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Frank Derfler <fderfler@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations
I qualify as a government bureaucrat. -I spent a decade inside the Beltwa
y and more decades working around it. -I am a happy AMD-made 601XL owner
who has 250 hours on his airplane. -My initial observation is that the NT
SB's Safety Recommendation is one of the best written documents I've seen c
ome out of the Federal Government. -That doesn't apply to the press relea
se, which I judge was written by some PR person and was a CYA exercise. The
report is as cogent and thoughtful a recommendation as a government can pr
oduce. -It is well written too. -
Here are some of my conclusions:-
In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is shouting, "Put Ma
ss Balanced Ailerons on those birds." -
Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and that is the solu
tion we will get.
We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget about nit-picking, c
arping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on how to get mass-balanced
ailerons on our birds ASAP.-
Hingeless ailerons? -I'm not qualified to comment technically, but bureau
cratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless ailerons is like a
sking them to contemplate the impact of angels on the economy. -They won'
t know what to say.
I'm joining ZBAG immediately. -That group has done good work and I should
have joined sooner. -Being cheap was being stupid.-
I'm reading up on how to "pickle" an engine
I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane is grounded.
-
We can't say we didn't see this coming.-
I'm grounded and unhappy, but I think the NTSB did a good piece of work.
-We have to get those hingeless ailerons flying. -
Frank Derfler
AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
See my discussion of -All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (
blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com -
Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com
=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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This just posted on the Zenith site:
NTSB Issues Safety Recommendation to FAA
April 15, 2009:
NTSB Safety Recommendation to FAA: http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf
Zenith Aircraft first became aware of the above NTSB Safety Recommendation Memo
on April 14, 2009, at the same time the NTSB issued its press release to the
public.
We continue to believe wing flutter will not occur if the control cables are adjusted
properly. Nonetheless, we are carefully considering the points raised
in the memo, including whether the Zodiac CH-601XL is susceptible to wing flutter.
Each accident discussed in the NTSB memo occurred under different circumstances.
Some of the accidents are still being investigated and what caused those
accidents has not been determined.
Zenith Aircraft will communicate with the FAA about the issues raised in the NTSB
memo. We will provide more information after we thoroughly consider the issues
raised in the NTSB memo and we have spoken with the FAA about those issues.
ZENITH AIRCRAFT CO.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Control surfaces and wings complete
Fuselage ready to rivet
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239326#239326
Message 10
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[quote="lwinger"]This just posted on the Zenith site:
.[/quote]
Where the heck did you see that on their website?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239334#239334
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Front page under the "NTSB Safety Recommendation."
http://zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239335#239335
Message 12
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Front page, first link under the 650 picture.
http://www.zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 13
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[quote="Gig Giacona"]Front page under the "NTSB Safety Recommendation."
http://zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html[/quote]
Thanks
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239338#239338
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After considering all my options, I have decided what to do about my Zodiac XL.
1. My plane is grounded until aileron mass balance is
installed. This requires a design I don't have yet, so the time
required for this delay is undefined.
2. I'm going to Sun n Fun next week to look at other kits and/or
S-LSA planes. I want something to fly while my XL is in limbo.
Anybody else going?
Paul
XL grounded
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
Where and how do you join ZBAG? I'm more than willing to provide some finan
cial support for further testing of our airplane to get it safely in the ai
r again. Like other have said, "It'll be one of the most tested ELSA in the
air".
--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendat
ions
Hi Frank,
I spent a few years in the gumint business myself.-- I agree with all y
ou said and have grounded my plane without waiting for the FAA bureaucrats
to make up their "Minds".
I'm no expert on pickling engines, but the impression I got is all you real
ly need to do is spray some special goop into each cylinder to prevent corr
osion.- When you are ready to use the engine again, just blow the goop ou
t by removing a spark plug in each cylinder and cranking the engine a few t
imes around.- I suspect you can find the special goop at any aviation oil
distributor.
Paul
XL grounded
At 04:58 AM 4/15/2009, you wrote:
In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is shouting, "Put Ma
ss Balanced Ailerons on those birds."-
Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and that is the solu
tion we will get.
We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget about nit-picking, c
arping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on how to get mass-balanced
ailerons on our birds ASAP.-
Hingeless ailerons?- I'm not qualified to comment technically, but bureau
cratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless ailerons is like a
sking them to contemplate the impact of angels on the economy.- They won'
t know what to say.
I'm joining ZBAG immediately.- That group has done good work and I should
have joined sooner.- Being cheap was being stupid.-
I'm reading up on how to "pickle" an engine
I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane is grounded.
--
We can't say we didn't see this coming.-
I'm grounded and unhappy, but I think the NTSB did a good piece of work.-
We have to get those hingeless ailerons flying.-
Frank Derfler
AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: My First Impressions of the Safety Recommendations |
Walter,
this is the link to ZBAG- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zbag/
We=B4ve been moving into shadows until now, we=B4ve exchanged info with sev
eral
worldwide agencies. I=B4m proud to be one of their first menbers.
Bye,.
2009/4/15 Walter Carey <careywf@sbcglobal.net>
> Where and how do you join ZBAG? I'm more than willing to provide some
> financial support for further testing of our airplane to get it safely in
> the air again. Like other have said, "It'll be one of the most tested ELS
A
> in the air".
>
> --- On *Wed, 4/15/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>* wrote:
>
> From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: My First Impressions of the Safety
> Recommendations
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 8:23 AM
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> I spent a few years in the gumint business myself. I agree with all you
> said and have grounded my plane without waiting for the FAA bureaucrats t
o
> make up their "Minds".
>
> I'm no expert on pickling engines, but the impression I got is all you
> really need to do is spray some special goop into each cylinder to preven
t
> corrosion. When you are ready to use the engine again, just blow the goo
p
> out by removing a spark plug in each cylinder and cranking the engine a f
ew
> times around. I suspect you can find the special goop at any aviation oi
l
> distributor.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
>
>
> At 04:58 AM 4/15/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> - In as much as it can in bureaucratic writing, the NTSB is shouting,
> "Put Mass Balanced Ailerons on those birds."
> - Mass balanced ailerons are the solution the NTSB wants and that is
> the solution we will get.
> - We ..as a group of owners and builders.. should forget about
> nit-picking, carping, and whining and focus like a laser beam on how t
o get
> mass-balanced ailerons on our birds ASAP.
> - Hingeless ailerons? I'm not qualified to comment technically, but
> bureaucratically, asking the FAA/NTSB to contemplate hingeless aileron
s is
> like asking them to contemplate the impact of angels on the economy.
They
> won't know what to say.
> - I'm joining ZBAG immediately. That group has done good work and I
> should have joined sooner. Being cheap was being stupid.
> - I'm reading up on how to "pickle" an engine
> - I'm calling my insurance company and telling them the airplane is
> grounded.
> - We can't say we didn't see this coming.
> - I'm grounded and unhappy, but I think the NTSB did a good piece of
> work. We have to get those hingeless ailerons flying.
>
>
> Frank Derfler
> AMD-made 601XL in the Florida Keys
>
>
> *
>
> " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenit
h601-List
> =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
> blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
===========
w.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
===========
===========
com/contribution
===========
> *
>
>
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 17
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First off, I'm not convinced that aileron flutter is responsible for any of the
accidents cited by the NTSB letter.? There has been absolutely no proof of such
a connection, only conjecture. In fact, flutter was ruled out as a cause in
one of the accidents cited in that letter - by the NTSB's own accident report.?
In other NTSB accident reports probable causes other than flutter have been
given, that the NTSB letter now says were "probably" caused by flutter. What
changed in the time between those official accident reports and the NTSB warning
letter?
Second, I don't believe that hinged or? hingless has anything to do with flutter.?
If anything, I believe that the weight of an aileron trim tab and servo would
have more effect since it would add to the total weight of the aileron; and
that additional weight would be further from the hinge point.? Does anyone know
FOR A FACT how many of the accident airplanes had aileron trim?
________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | First real result of the NTSB report |
Well, the first real result of the NTSB report has happened: the DPE I was
going to take my CFI-SP checkride with tomorrow postponed it until the issue
is resolved. We talked about it for a while, and I explained what I knew
about the issue; she said she'd think about it some more and let me know.
I've spent six months getting ready for the checkride. Now, I have no idea
when, or if, I'll be able to get it done. There's only one other DPE who
does CFI-SP checkrides in the region, and no FAA inspector does them. I have
no idea where else I could go within reasonable flying distance of KFRM.
I understand and respect her decision. I'm not going to ask anyone to get in
my airplane who's not completely comfortable with the choice.
I've got lots of words to use for the situation. None of them are usable on
this forum.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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| Subject: | Re: First real result of the NTSB report |
The EAA reports FAA's reaction:
http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-04-15_zodiac.asp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239405#239405
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| Subject: | Mass balancing of Ailerons - How to |
Hello to all,
I found this How to article by Tony Bingelis;
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
It sounds like a good starting point and even covers basic requirements for load
testing of the attached counter weight.
I am going to explore this option to see what I can come up with for my 601XL.
I'll post photo's of progress at http://www.mykitlog.com/eddieseve
Cheers,
Eddie Seve
601XL - 150 hours
Jab 3300
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239418#239418
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| Subject: | Re: aileron flutter |
I have just re-read the NTSB request letter to the FAA and counted several citations
from the ZBAG community. The same group who went off to determine if there
was a problem with the design seem to have convinced several government authorities
of the designs weakness without proving anything. If they (ZBAG) have
proved anything it needs to be published so we all are signing out of the same
book.
We all have a stake in this now. I can't think of to many things to stop this other
than full physical testing to destruction of several of the airplanes that
have been built by different methods, Factory built, Kit Built, Quick Built
and Scratch Built. That would be quite expensive. Maybe it will just go away,
but if we keep fanning the flames it certainly won't go away.
It's not like these airplanes are all falling out of the sky. I have flown in
three CH 601 XL's and they all functioned as expected. I know that does not make
me an expert but the point about those flights is they were non events because
they were conducted responsibly. That is the pilots real job, managing risk.
off the soap box
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239445#239445
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If the ZBAG group would like a *simple* website, just let me know. I
can put something together this weekend, no charge.
Brent Friedman
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| Subject: | Re: aileron flutter |
Hi Ron,
Sorry if I am getting into the argument, but there are a few things
you said that got me going.
First, I don't think it matters what information the NTSB might have
heard or considered in their decision making process. For my money,
they are the top of the food chain when it comes to determining
causes for accidents. If I can't accept their judgement, then I must
put myself above the whole world in the judgement and reasoning
arena. I might have a big ego, but not that big.
Second, I don't agree with you that lots of planes need to be tested
to destruction. The NTSB laid out a series of actions meant to
resolve this issue. I personally feel the vibration testing is the
most important part of the analysis they demanded. Since the
beginning of this problem I have felt it is based on some sort of
mechanical oscillation that causes the low frequency noise cited by
surviving pilots. If this oscillation tendency can be isolated then
it can be removed from the structure. This is similar to the history
of the Lockheed Electra. If found, this would indeed constitute a
valid explanation for all the troubles and amount to a proof.
On a more mundane level, I have to respect the NTSB's judgement that
aileron mass balancing will correct all this trouble. I agree that
nothing has been proven, but as I mentioned above the NTSB is the
best source for this kind of judgement. For me, that means my plane
is grounded until a satisfactory aileron mass balance design is
installed. I hope this can be done in just a few days or weeks, but
I doubt a truly satisfying design will surface by then. The way
Zenith is dragging their feet and making comments about their doubts
I don't think we will get anything from Chris or one of the other
really qualified engineers for a long time. My take on all this is
Sebastian will get in the way of a speedy resolution and there is
nothing any of us can do to change that.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:58 PM 4/15/2009, you wrote:
>It's not like these airplanes are all falling out of the sky.
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