---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/16/09: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:55 AM - Re: First real result of the NTSB report (Iberplanes IGL) 2. 01:03 AM - Re: zbag group (Iberplanes IGL) 3. 05:18 AM - Mass Balanced Ailerons (Frank Derfler) 4. 05:47 AM - An Even More Detailed AVWEB ARTICLE (Frank Derfler) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: Mass Balanced Ailerons (Rene Felker) 6. 07:07 AM - Re: First real result of the NTSB report (n85ae) 7. 07:11 AM - aileron flutter/hard landings (KARL POLIFKA) 8. 08:16 AM - Re: zbag group (Walter Carey) 9. 08:34 AM - An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (Frank Derfler) 10. 08:51 AM - Re: Sun n Fun (Walter Carey) 11. 09:05 AM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 09:27 AM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (Craig Payne) 13. 09:38 AM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (John Davis) 14. 09:42 AM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (Gig Giacona) 15. 10:03 AM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (Paul Mulwitz) 16. 10:10 AM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (John Davis) 17. 01:07 PM - Main gear flex (pavel569) 18. 01:19 PM - Re: FAA Safety Recommendation - 601XL (Scotsman) 19. 02:10 PM - Re: Main gear flex (Gig Giacona) 20. 02:20 PM - Re: Main gear flex (Herb Heaton) 21. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: Main gear flex (Bryan Martin) 22. 02:36 PM - Re: Main gear flex (Gig Giacona) 23. 03:30 PM - Re: Main gear flex (pavel569) 24. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: Main gear flex (Craig Payne) 25. 04:58 PM - Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube (special4) 26. 06:04 PM - Re: aileron flutter (Ron Lendon) 27. 06:46 PM - Re: Mass Balanced Ailerons (Tim Juhl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: First real result of the NTSB report From: Iberplanes IGL Hello Jay, I understand your concern and I fully respect your position. But try to imagine "what are the feelings of those pilot still grounded (since october) in Europe? Also those builders, like myself, who had received a notification "to pospone building" until more info is available. Unfair right? 2009/4/16 Jay Maynard > > Well, the first real result of the NTSB report has happened: the DPE I was > going to take my CFI-SP checkride with tomorrow postponed it until the > issue > is resolved. We talked about it for a while, and I explained what I knew > about the issue; she said she'd think about it some more and let me know. > > I've spent six months getting ready for the checkride. Now, I have no idea > when, or if, I'll be able to get it done. There's only one other DPE who > does CFI-SP checkrides in the region, and no FAA inspector does them. I > have > no idea where else I could go within reasonable flying distance of KFRM. > > I understand and respect her decision. I'm not going to ask anyone to get > in > my airplane who's not completely comfortable with the choice. > > I've got lots of words to use for the situation. None of them are usable on > this forum. > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml > > -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: zbag group From: Iberplanes IGL same here. I=B4m running my own company in Spain and I have bandwith to giv e to my ZBAG fellows. 2009/4/16 bfriedman.zenith > bfriedman.zenith@gmail.com> > > If the ZBAG group would like a *simple* website, just let me know. I can > put something together this weekend, no charge. > > Brent Friedman > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Mass Balanced Ailerons From: Frank Derfler The article on aileron balancing referenced here by Eddie Seve (thank you Eddie) and written by Tony Bingelis http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html is very interesting. It describes the practice of hand balancing an aileron set for a specific airplane taking into consideration the paint, etc on the aileron. Interesting reading and highly recommended. An A&P I consulted yesterday told me that some light aircraft don't use a weight suspended on an arm as I'm used to seeing on Pipers, but rather use a rod of lead on the trailing edge of the aileron. One can hope it's that simple. Finally, it was interesting to see, as reported by EAA, that the FAA wasn't so quick to comply with the NTSB recommendation. http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-04-15_zodiac.asp-- If you read the slightly different report below from AvWebBiz, a different FAA spokesperson was even stronger to push back. The link is http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1351-full.html#200146 Is the FAA AHEAD of the NTSB? .. FAA RESPONDS TO ZODIAC CONCERNS The FAA is already looking into concerns about all versions of the Zodiac aircraft, which were raised at an industry meeting back in February, FAA spokeswoman Laura J. Brown told *AVweb* on Tuesday, but she added that the agency has no immediate plans to call for the airplanes to be grounded. "The manufacturer already has told owners to check the aileron control cable tensions," she said. The FAA has formed a special review team with members from the FAA and the industry to investigate the problem. Brown added that the FAA has told the ASTM that it should conduct a review of its LSA standards regarding aerodynamic flutter. More... -- Frank Derfler, AMD-made 601XL in the FL Keys See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:24 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: An Even More Detailed AVWEB ARTICLE From: Frank Derfler This AVWeb piece has even more information in one place. Although most of the information is known to readers of this list, it seems to be a good summary ( I haven't done fact-checking on it) http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1352-full.html#200158 -- Frank Derfler, 601XL in the FL Keys See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:48 AM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Mass Balanced Ailerons My RV-10 has a steel pipe in the leading edge of the aileron...simple. Per plans. Rene' Felker RV-10 N423CF Flying 801-721-6080 From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Derfler Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:18 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: Mass Balanced Ailerons The article on aileron balancing referenced here by Eddie Seve (thank you Eddie) and written by Tony Bingelis http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html is very interesting. It describes the practice of hand balancing an aileron set for a specific airplane taking into consideration the paint, etc on the aileron. Interesting reading and highly recommended. An A&P I consulted yesterday told me that some light aircraft don't use a weight suspended on an arm as I'm used to seeing on Pipers, but rather use a rod of lead on the trailing edge of the aileron. One can hope it's that simple. Finally, it was interesting to see, as reported by EAA, that the FAA wasn't so quick to comply with the NTSB recommendation. http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-04-15_zodiac.asp-- If you read the slightly different report below from AvWebBiz, a different FAA spokesperson was even stronger to push back. The link is http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1351-full.html#200146 Is the FAA AHEAD of the NTSB? .. FAA RESPONDS TO ZODIAC CONCERNS The FAA is already looking into concerns about all versions of the Zodiac aircraft, which were raised at an industry meeting back in February, FAA spokeswoman Laura J. Brown told AVweb on Tuesday, but she added that the agency has no immediate plans to call for the airplanes to be grounded. "The manufacturer already has told owners to check the aileron control cable tensions," she said. The FAA has formed a special review team with members from the FAA and the industry to investigate the problem. Brown added that the FAA has told the ASTM that it should conduct a review of its LSA standards regarding aerodynamic flutter. More... -- Frank Derfler, AMD-made 601XL in the FL Keys See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: First real result of the NTSB report From: "n85ae" I would not be surprised, if another of the first real results is likely to be that a lot of crash victim families are probably working up lawsuits related to the crashes. Which backed by the report may well win against Zenith. Or at least cause enough financial duress fighting that I'd be surprised if Zenith survives into the future. I previously built a Kitfox and a lot of builder's lost money when Skystar went belly up. So I'd highly recommend if you're building anything Zenith, and intend to finish it that buying all your remaining parts now might not be a bad idea. Cable tension can easily be blamed on the builder/pilot. But lack of mass balance on the aileron's is not something that can be so easily defended against. That's my thought's anyway. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239506#239506 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:23 AM PST US From: "KARL POLIFKA" Subject: Zenith601-List: aileron flutter/hard landings While I do think there are legitimate questions regarding aileron flutter ( and a variety of possible cause including operator/maintainer actions), som e of the NTSB stuff is a bit odd. Witnesses on the ground seeing vibration on an airplane entering the patter n. An eagle maybe, not a person. Pitch sensitivity. Well, yes. If you don't notice that and fly accordingl y, you shouldn't be flying. The discussion over IAS versus CAS. This isn't exactly the X-15. Is this relevant? It is unfortunate that Zenith remains somewhat evasive -- but I think I see lawyers in the background. Let's hope this gets resolved quickly. Has anyone had problems with firewall and stiffener damage from semi-hard l andings? Karl ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: aileron flutter Hi Ron, Sorry if I am getting into the argument, but there are a few things you said that got me going. First, I don't think it matters what information the NTSB might have heard or considered in their decision making process. For my money, they are the top of the food chain when it comes to determining causes for accidents. If I can't accept their judgement, then I must put myself above the whole world in the judgement and reasoning arena. I might have a big ego, but not that big. Second, I don't agree with you that lots of planes need to be tested to destruction. The NTSB laid out a series of actions meant to resolve this issue. I personally feel the vibration testing is the most important part of the analysis they demanded. Since the beginning of this problem I have felt it is based on some sort of mechanical oscillation that causes the low frequency noise cited by surviving pilots. If this oscillation tendency can be isolated then it can be removed from the structure. This is similar to the history of the Lockheed Electra. If found, this would indeed constitute a valid explanation for all the troubles and amount to a proof. On a more mundane level, I have to respect the NTSB's judgement that aileron mass balancing will correct all this trouble. I agree that nothing has been proven, but as I mentioned above the NTSB is the best source for this kind of judgement. For me, that means my plane is grounded until a satisfactory aileron mass balance design is installed. I hope this can be done in just a few days or weeks, but I doubt a truly satisfying design will surface by then. The way Zenith is dragging their feet and making comments about their doubts I don't think we will get anything from Chris or one of the other really qualified engineers for a long time. My take on all this is Sebastian will get in the way of a speedy resolution and there is nothing any of us can do to change that. Paul XL grounded do not archive At 07:58 PM 4/15/2009, you wrote: >It's not like these airplanes are all falling out of the sky. =========== =========== =========== =========== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:47 AM PST US From: Walter Carey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: zbag group Brent, - - I'm not a member of ZBAG, but I would like to see a website devoted to the "problem". I'll join and financially support ZBAG when I get an address for them. Walt in Dayton, Ohio.- --- On Wed, 4/15/09, bfriedman.zenith wrote: From: bfriedman.zenith Subject: Zenith601-List: zbag group If the ZBAG group would like a *simple* website, just let me know. I can p ut something together this weekend, no charge. Brent Friedman ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube From: Frank Derfler This video has been viewed over 2000 times, so it is nothing new, but I don't remember it being mentioned here. I got the lead from a "list lurker" named Brad. Thank you, Brad. This video shows that a weight can be added to the 601XL quite nicely. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM -- Frank Derfler 601XL in the Florida Keys See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:20 AM PST US From: Walter Carey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Sun n Fun Hi Paul, - - See you at Sun-N-Fun. Walt Carey from Dayton, Ohio. Wings, empennage, f laps, etc, complete. Fuselage 25%. Jabiru FWF kit and 3300A engine purchase d. Building on hold till this thing is resolved.- --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Paul Mulwitz wrote: From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith601-List: Sun n Fun After considering all my options, I have decided what to do about my Zodiac XL. 1. My plane is grounded until aileron mass balance is installed. This requires a design I don't have yet, so the time required for this delay is undefined. 2. I'm going to Sun n Fun next week to look at other kits and/or S-LSA planes. I want something to fly while my XL is in limbo. Anybody else going? Paul XL grounded ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:50 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube Hi Frank, That balance weight looks very nice, but I'm afraid it raises as many questions as it answers. It appears the rear channel has been nearly completely removed where the balance bar goes through it. What impact does this have on the strength of the wing? Considering the color and welding shown it appears steel was used for most or all of the parts. Does this heavy material add a significant load to the rest of the wing design? Is all this steel really necessary to prevent flutter? Does this prevent aileron flutter? Does this prevent wing flutter? I truly hope we get a competent design from one of the engineers actually responsible for the Zodiac XL. Hopefully this would be Chris Heintz, but it might be one of the many other engineers who work on the Zenith drawings. I have no idea how to get Zenith/Zenair to come up with this design since they seem to be dragging their feet at every step. Paul XL grounded At 08:30 AM 4/16/2009, you wrote: > I got the lead from a "list lurker" named Brad. Thank you, > Brad. This video shows that a weight can be added to the 601XL > quite nicely. >See >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM >-- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:54 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube Hmm, seems they had some flutter at "150 mph" (!) -- Craig From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Derfler Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:30 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube This video has been viewed over 2000 times, so it is nothing new, but I don't remember it being mentioned here. I got the lead from a "list lurker" named Brad. Thank you, Brad. This video shows that a weight can be added to the 601XL quite nicely. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM -- Frank Derfler 601XL in the Florida Keys See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:17 AM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube Paul, Keep in mind that Zenith has already submitted a design for a mass aileron balance to the UKs Light Aircraft Association so they can get the grounding in the UK lifted. The UK does certify to a lower gross weight but presumably the aileron balance should be applicable to our planes as well. The UK LAA guys are supposed to be fitting a test plane out with the new mod. John Davis Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Hi Frank, > > That balance weight looks very nice, but I'm afraid it raises as many > questions as it answers. > > It appears the rear channel has been nearly completely removed where > the balance bar goes through it. What impact does this have on the > strength of the wing? > > Considering the color and welding shown it appears steel was used for > most or all of the parts. Does this heavy material add a significant > load to the rest of the wing design? Is all this steel really > necessary to prevent flutter? > > Does this prevent aileron flutter? Does this prevent wing flutter? > > I truly hope we get a competent design from one of the engineers > actually responsible for the Zodiac XL. Hopefully this would be Chris > Heintz, but it might be one of the many other engineers who work on > the Zenith drawings. I have no idea how to get Zenith/Zenair to come > up with this design since they seem to be dragging their feet at every > step. > > Paul > XL grounded > > > At 08:30 AM 4/16/2009, you wrote: >> I got the lead from a "list lurker" named Brad. Thank you, Brad. >> This video shows that a weight can be added to the 601XL quite nicely. >> See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM >> -- > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube From: "Gig Giacona" I would be especially worried about how that weight (It looks awful heavy) would effect the hingeless ailerons. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239546#239546 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:34 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube Hi John, Do you have a copy of this design's drawings? I don't. Last I heard this design was considered a secret. Paul do not archive At 09:33 AM 4/16/2009, you wrote: >Paul, > >Keep in mind that Zenith has already submitted a design for a mass >aileron balance to the UKs Light Aircraft Association so they can >get the grounding in the UK lifted. The UK does certify to a lower >gross weight but presumably the aileron balance should be >applicable to our planes as well. The UK LAA guys are supposed to be >fitting a test plane out with the new mod. > >John Davis ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:32 AM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube Hi Paul, No, I dont have the design. The UK LAA folks must have it, not suer if anyone outside of that group has seen it. My point was that they have a design and there shouldnt be much involved in them releasing it. Its not like they have to start from scratch... John Paul Mulwitz wrote: > > Hi John, > > Do you have a copy of this design's drawings? I don't. > > Last I heard this design was considered a secret. > > Paul > do not archive > > At 09:33 AM 4/16/2009, you wrote: >> Paul, >> >> Keep in mind that Zenith has already submitted a design for a mass >> aileron balance to the UKs Light Aircraft Association so they can get >> the grounding in the UK lifted. The UK does certify to a lower gross >> weight but presumably the aileron balance should be applicable to >> our planes as well. The UK LAA guys are supposed to be fitting a test >> plane out with the new mod. >> >> John Davis > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Main gear flex From: "pavel569" One building question in this "grounding" war time. Placement of my radiator. To have Stratus Subaru as my powerplant, I'm trying to shift the water radiator as aft as possible to balance this heavier engine. I have a set of Alu pipes for using with air intake from Larry McFarland. They are 32" long and I'd like to keep the length as is. It will move the radiator way back so it will be partially under the main gear. Does anybody know how much the landing gear center section flexes down when land hard? I can move the radiator up or down by fabricating its side brackets. Generally, is it a good idea or is it better to keep it forward, in front of the gear channel? -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PL (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239591#239591 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: FAA Safety Recommendation - 601XL From: "Scotsman" Agree. Must be a couple of bruised egos on this site though... Glad to see that there will be forced changes to allow us to get safely airborne...might be able to start building again soon. James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239596#239596 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Main gear flex From: "Gig Giacona" pavel569 wrote: > > Generally, is it a good idea or is it better to keep it forward, in front of the gear channel? I would think so. Watch this video. http://www.zenithair.com/video/gear_drop_test.mpeg -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239610#239610 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:22 PM PST US From: "Herb Heaton" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Main gear flex Pavel, Check out the gear drop test on the Zenith site: http://www.zenithair.com/video/gear_drop_test.mpeg I have the same problem with my radiator, so I am placing it behind the main gear with the coolant tubes outboard under the gear attach brackets. I wouldn't put anything across the center of the main gear strut. Herb Colorado Springs, CO Subaru EA-81 Turbo Wiring Panel ----- Original Message ----- From: pavel569 To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Main gear flex > One building question in this "grounding" war time. Placement of my radiator. To have Stratus Subaru as my powerplant, I'm trying to shift the water radiator as aft as possible to balance this heavier engine. I have a set of Alu pipes for using with air intake from Larry McFarland. They are 32" long and I'd like to keep the length as is. It will move the radiator way back so it will be partially under the main gear. Does anybody know how much the landing gear center section flexes down when land hard? I can move the radiator up or down by fabricating its side brackets. Generally, is it a good idea or is it better to keep it forward, in front of the gear channel? -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PL (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239591#239591 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:05 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Main gear flex Looks like a good three to four inches of flex there. A more efficient location might be behind the main gear (look at a P-51 Mustang) and you might even get away with a smaller radiator, but it would require more plumbing. On Apr 16, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Gig Giacona wrote: > > > > > pavel569 wrote: >> >> Generally, is it a good idea or is it better to keep it forward, in >> front of the gear channel? > > > I would think so. Watch this video. > > http://www.zenithair.com/video/gear_drop_test.mpeg > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Main gear flex From: "Gig Giacona" Not a water cooled guy but how big around are these coolant lines? I'm thinking longer lines = more water = more weight. Weight = Bad. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239617#239617 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Main gear flex From: "pavel569" Thanks for your replies, guys. I'll try to fit the radiator with all braces to find out how much clearance I can get, but I'll have to stay in front of the main gear, I guess. I want to keep it simple as much as possible. Better move the battery behind the seats or even add one more to balance the plane. -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PL (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239632#239632 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:13 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Main gear flex Remember that pipes have friction. You can't just keep extending the lines without having an impact on their flow rate. There is a formula for this somewhere. You could do some calculations before building or built and test. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Main gear flex Looks like a good three to four inches of flex there. A more efficient location might be behind the main gear (look at a P-51 Mustang) and you might even get away with a smaller radiator, but it would require more plumbing. On Apr 16, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Gig Giacona wrote: > > > > > pavel569 wrote: >> >> Generally, is it a good idea or is it better to keep it forward, in >> front of the gear channel? > > > I would think so. Watch this video. > > http://www.zenithair.com/video/gear_drop_test.mpeg > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: An example of 601XL mass balance on YouTube From: "special4" Paul The aileron balance design is from the Airfox guys in Brasil, and will not work with the Horner wingtips. They use different wingtips. But most probably it could be modified. Peter Sonders -------- Sportsflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239638#239638 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: aileron flutter From: "Ron Lendon" Paul, No apology necessary, I like a good debate. I do agree the design could be made better and as an experimental product we should just do that and not wait for the government to push for us. I had a conversation one day with a friend and he asked me who gave me permission to build the plane, I replied if he meant my wife. His response floored me, he thought I actually needed the government permission just to go out to my garage and build an airplane. He really doesn't understand freedom and I do think that is what is happening here. Here we are free people and we wait for some government body to guide us on decisions we can and should be making for ourselves. The whole purpose of this forum is to solve problems. I see waiting for NTSB, FAA to be counter productive and a bad influence. I guess I could say I Love my Country, But I fear my government. psm(at)att.net wrote: > Hi Ron, > > Sorry if I am getting into the argument, but there are a few things > you said that got me going. > > Be well, I'm going to SnF -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239645#239645 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:21 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Mass Balanced Ailerons From: "Tim Juhl" My Cessna 172 had a lead strip riveted along the lower front edge of the aileron. I believe the geometry was such that the weight was forward of the hinge during at least part of it's travel. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239649#239649 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.