Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:22 AM - Re: Another Z-BAGing (aprazer)
2. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Another Z-BAGing (Jay Maynard)
3. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Another Z-BAGing (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 10:13 AM - Re: Another Z-BAGing definition please (fritz)
5. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Another Z-BAGing definition please (Iberplanes IGL)
6. 12:40 PM - Z-BAGing definition please, analyze what ? (fritz)
7. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Another Z-BAGing (KARL POLIFKA)
8. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Another Z-BAGing (Rick Lindstrom)
9. 04:08 PM - Elevator Control Cables 601XL (Peter W Johnson)
10. 04:13 PM - Re: Elevator Control Cables 601XL (Paul Mulwitz)
11. 07:13 PM - Re: Elevator Control Cables 601XL (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
12. 08:48 PM - Re: Elevator Control Cables 601XL (Peter W Johnson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing |
I've got a suggestion for all ZBAG'rs!
Focus your efforts on Cirrus -- as this brand of aircraft has contributed to 78
deaths in 110 accidents since 4-10-04!
Then, take a look at Cessna, Beech, Piper, etc...
During the same time period, Zenith had 24 deaths in 46 accidents.
All aircraft have the tendency to fall out of the air, as if you didn't know.
Pilots, passengers, etc. are encountering chance every time a plane takes to the
air.
Now, please drop the matter as you know not how much unnecessary damage you are
creating!
Mack
601XL/3300
N990MK
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253726#253726
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing |
On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 09:22:09AM -0700, aprazer wrote:
> Focus your efforts on Cirrus -- as this brand of aircraft has contributed
> to 78 deaths in 110 accidents since 4-10-04!
>
> Then, take a look at Cessna, Beech, Piper, etc...
>
> During the same time period, Zenith had 24 deaths in 46 accidents.
How many Cirrus, Cessna, Beech, Piper, and so on aircraft are flying, and
how many Zodiacs?
> All aircraft have the tendency to fall out of the air, as if you didn't
> know.
Sure. That doesn't mean we have to ignore problems specific to the type if
they exist - and the accident rates say they do.
> Pilots, passengers, etc. are encountering chance every time a plane takes
> to the air.
That doesn't mean we have no obligation to minimize risks and fix problems.
> Now, please drop the matter as you know not how much unnecessary damage
> you are creating!
I'm not going to just wash my hands of the Zodiac's safety. That would be
the ultimate in irresponsibility to myself, my loved ones, and aviation in
general.
You can forget about improving aviation safety if you want to. I'll not so
politely ignore demands that I do so.
Even if, as your message shows, you don't give a fuzzy rat's posterior about
being safe, I do.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing |
Hi Mack,
That is an interesting comparison of apples to oranges.
To be a reasonable accident comparison it needs to consider how much
flying was done in each of the airplane makes listed. Perhaps you
have the best numbers. I would guess Cirrus has 100 times as many
flight hours as Zenith and Cessna 1000 or 10,000 times as
many. Remember Cessna accounts for the top three models of light
planes shipped in history - the 172, 182, and 150/152. Also, most
Cessnas and Pipers are old and worn pretty thin.
I agree with you completely that all types of planes have fatal
accidents. It is only a rare exception where a given make and model
have a much higher rate of accidents than other ones. There is also
the issue of what kind of accident happens. When a freshly minted
Sport Pilot takes off in IMC you can't really blame the plane for the
outcome. On the other hand, when a plane has the wings come off in
level flight in the traffic pattern you have to wonder what
happened. When a plane as unpopular as the Zodiac XL (probably less
than 1000 flying before the problems surfaced - a lot less now) has 5
or 10 wing separations in two years you really need to wonder what is
behind the failures.
I really wish we could stop blaming ZBAG for the problems in the
Zodiac XL. They didn't create the problems and blaming them only
inflames the community.
I know you and many other Zenith people wish this whole problem would
just go away. Unfortunately, it is going to take some design changes
for that to happen.
Paul
XL grounded
At 09:22 AM 7/19/2009, you wrote:
>
>I've got a suggestion for all ZBAG'rs!
>
>Focus your efforts on Cirrus -- as this brand of aircraft has
>contributed to 78 deaths in 110 accidents since 4-10-04!
>
>Then, take a look at Cessna, Beech, Piper, etc...
>
>During the same time period, Zenith had 24 deaths in 46 accidents.
>
>All aircraft have the tendency to fall out of the air, as if you didn't know.
>
>Pilots, passengers, etc. are encountering chance every time a plane
>takes to the air.
>
>Now, please drop the matter as you know not how much unnecessary
>damage you are creating!
>
>Mack
>601XL/3300
>N990MK
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing definition please |
What or who is a "ZBAG'r"-------definition please
----- Original Message -----
From: "aprazer" <aprazer@cableone.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 12:22 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Another Z-BAGing
>
> I've got a suggestion for all ZBAG'rs!
>
> Focus your efforts on Cirrus -- as this brand of aircraft has contributed
> to 78 deaths in 110 accidents since 4-10-04!
>
> Then, take a look at Cessna, Beech, Piper, etc...
>
> During the same time period, Zenith had 24 deaths in 46 accidents.
>
> All aircraft have the tendency to fall out of the air, as if you didn't
> know.
>
> Pilots, passengers, etc. are encountering chance every time a plane takes
> to the air.
>
> Now, please drop the matter as you know not how much unnecessary damage
> you are creating!
>
> Mack
> 601XL/3300
> N990MK
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> --------
> The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253726#253726
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing definition please |
Zenith builders Analysis Group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Started
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 6
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| Subject: | Z-BAGing definition please, analyze what ? |
thank you for the reply--- never heard of this group-- what do they
analyze ?
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Iberplanes IGL
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Another Z-BAGing definition please
Zenith builders Analysis Group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Started
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing |
I have been monitoring the matronics posts on the 601XL for the last six mo
nths for obvious reasons (we have one with 240 hours on it now). I am stru
ck by the increasing intensity of the "discussion", the willingness of some
to accept a one-size-fits-all NTSB explanation (and one with very question
able statements), those who are clearly exceeding the design specs and have
other very bad and potentially fatal habits, and those who have not adapte
d their flying techniques to the airplane.
Accepting a NTSB explanation at face value, or thinking that whatever they
say = "safety", is a not fully productive approach. Flutter may be an ex
isting problem -- but that is not the whole story.
Those of you who freely admit to exceeding design specs may yet rip the win
gs off your airplanes. Someone may then call it a flutter problem when, in
reality, it is a pilot problem. That is not a Zenith problem, but you wil
l make it look like one.
The 601XL is pitch sensitive. It takes about 10 seconds to figure that out
-- sort of the difference between a Porsche and a truck. This is not a C-1
72 so don't go whapping the stick around like it is. That alone can lead t
o structural problems. Do not try and do silly unachievable things like "c
ountering turbulence" with rapid control inputs, as someone alluded to -- i
t doesn't work in any airplane. In other words, be a better pilot.
Many years ago I was picking an airplane at the Cessna factory for a foreig
n delivery (C-185/U-17). I asked the chief designer why they didn't have m
ore rudder authority, like the O-1 Birddog, on their standard designs. He,
appropriately, gave me a patient look and explained that they designed air
planes for people who were okay at driving cars. Oh. The 601XL is not a C
essna. Adapt or get something else.
I suspect that many of the 601XL problems reside in the left seat -- but pr
obably not all of them. Let's all calm down.
Karl
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Another Z-BAGing |
Hi, Karl, and THANK YOU for stating what may not be so obvious to those following
the whole online 601XL debacle. I recently spent 3,000 words writing an article
that essentially makes your very same points - even as far as using the Skyhawk
as an example of an airplane that will fly just fine DESPITE how many pilots
fly it.
One thing that is at the very core of this issue is the dichotomy of the market
for the 601, versus what it needs to be flown safely. The whole Zenith line is
cheap to acquire, and very simple to build and maintain (unlike some of the
fast glass out there). But despite the low cost and minimal skill needed to build,
the 601 still rewards those who develop the skill to fly with a light, precise
touch. This isn't hard, but it does feel unusual at first to those used
to the control pressures needed to get a Skyhawk or Cherokee to do anything like
changing attitude. And once a pilot gets used to flying with the fingertips,
it's really hard to go back to flying airplanes that need comparitively massive
control input pressures. Kind of like giving up a sports car for a truck
without power steering.
Already I can hear the screams accusing me of being a Zenith shill or 601 apologist.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Everyone who puts their butt in
a 601 has a keen interest in flying it safely and returning successfully to earth
in a single piece. But this isn't an issue that is either "all airplane"
or "all pilot skill". It's a combination of the two.
Unfortunately, we all know exactly where the failure point is when the airframe
is stressed beyond its G load limits or someone attempts to fly with slack aileron
cables. The tragic results are repeatable and predictable.
Could the airframe be made stronger, thus moving the failure point somewhere else
at higher G loads? Probably. Would I like to retrofit my airframe with such
a mod? Sure, if it doesn't add excessive weight. Is it really necessary? I don't
think so (which assumes that I can stay out of the heavy bumps and fly lightly).
I've already limited the down deflection of my elevator to 15 degrees
and insured the cable tensions are up to snuff. Now it's really up to me to fly
where the weather isn't with a light touch on the stick.
Glad to do it.
Rick Lindstrom
N42KP
-----Original Message-----
>From: KARL POLIFKA <jfowler120@verizon.net>
>Sent: Jul 19, 2009 3:44 PM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Another Z-BAGing
>
>I have been monitoring the matronics posts on the 601XL for the last six months
for obvious reasons (we have one with 240 hours on it now). I am struck by
the increasing intensity of the "discussion", the willingness of some to accept
a one-size-fits-all NTSB explanation (and one with very questionable statements),
those who are clearly exceeding the design specs and have other very bad
and potentially fatal habits, and those who have not adapted their flying techniques
to the airplane...
Message 9
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| Subject: | Elevator Control Cables 601XL |
Hi Guys,
I'm sure this has been mentioned before but...
I have installed my elevator cables and there seems to be a difference in
tension between normal and fully up elevator. If this is normal, when do I
check the tension, normal or fully up?
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://zodiac.cpc-world.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Control Cables 601XL |
Hi Peter,
Keep in mind the "Up" cable must support the weight of the
elevator. I am not sure how this changes with different elevator
positions, but I suspect the forces on the two elevator cables will
always be different from each other.
Paul
XL grounded
At 04:07 PM 7/19/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>
>I'm sure this has been mentioned before but...
>
>I have installed my elevator cables and there seems to be a difference in
>tension between normal and fully up elevator. If this is normal, when do I
>check the tension, normal or fully up?
>
>Cheers
>
>Peter
>Wonthaggi Australia
>http://zodiac.cpc-world.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Control Cables 601XL |
Just a thought. I just closed my arm rest and thought, how will I make
cable adjustment. When I do need to adjust the cables I will move the
turnbuckles so I can get to them using the door that I have added (like the 601xl,
I think) just aft of the rear spar on the bottom. This will require adding
a short section of cable to the bracket and reducing the cables length.
Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE
.
Keep in mind the "Up" cable must support the weight of the
elevator. I am not sure how this changes with different elevator
positions, but I suspect the forces on the two elevator cables will
always be different from each other.
Paul
XL grounded
.
**************Can love help you live longer? Find out now.
(http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu
slove00000001)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Elevator Control Cables 601XL |
Jerry,
I have moved the turnbuckles so they are accessible from the rear access
door. They are much easier to adjust. I tried holding the elevator in the up
position and the elevator cable is still tight. Is there some asymmetry in
the cable geometry?
Cheers
Peter
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Monday, 20 July 2009 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Elevator Control Cables 601XL
Just a thought. I just closed my arm rest and thought, how will I make cable
adjustment. When I do need to adjust the cables I will move the turnbuckles
so I can get to them using the door that I have added (like the 601xl, I
think) just aft of the rear spar on the bottom. This will require adding a
short section of cable to the bracket and reducing the cables length. Jerry
of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE
.
Keep in mind the "Up" cable must support the weight of the
elevator. I am not sure how this changes with different elevator
positions, but I suspect the forces on the two elevator cables will
always be different from each other.
Paul
XL grounded
.
_____
Can love help you live longer? Find
<http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relations
hips/?ncid=emlweuslove00000001> out now.
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