Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:19 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Pete54)
2. 03:01 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Scotsman)
3. 04:39 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 05:09 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (T. Graziano)
6. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Peter Chapman)
7. 08:32 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Scotsman)
8. 08:33 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (PatrickW)
9. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Carlos Sa)
10. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Doug - SportAviation)
11. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Jim Belcher)
12. 09:46 AM - News (sort of) from Mexico, MO on XL changes. (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 10:08 AM - uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance cost (fritz)
14. 10:56 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (DaveG601XL)
15. 11:37 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance cost (LarryMcFarland)
16. 11:39 AM - Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance cost (Doug - SportAviation)
17. 12:01 PM - Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) (Jim Belcher)
18. 12:07 PM - Re: Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) (Jim Belcher)
19. 01:56 PM - Re: Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) (Thruster87)
20. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight (Doug - SportAviation)
21. 11:13 PM - Re: Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) (Scotsman)
22. 11:38 PM - 601XL Cowling (Peter W Johnson)
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
The smuggled drawings!
Not on the drawings are the changes to the elevator trim horn - which has to be
reversed. In the UK we have to fit a large trim tab (the original test aircraft
had a heavy prop). We now have a mod to reduce the effectiveness of that
bigger trim tab......
--------
Pete Morris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260157#260157
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/0265_0001_918.tif
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
Hi Pete, I cannot access the tif file you uploaded to the thread...can you upload
in a different format or any ideas why I cannot download them?
Cheers
James
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260162#260162
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
Hi James,
Thanks for posting the drawings.
After looking at them, I have a couple of questions. I don't know if
you are the right person to ask or not, but you are at least "The
Messenger" so I will give it a try.
1. I could not find any definition for the balance weights (6BA01-2,
6BA01-3). Do you know how these weights are constructed? How much
do they weigh?
2. The image shows hinged ailerons. Do you have any idea how this
design might translate to hingeless ailerons? (Are all UK Zodiacs
built with piano hinges on ailerons?)
Thanks,
Paul
Camas, WA, USA
At 03:00 AM 8/28/2009, you wrote:
><james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
>Hi Pete, I cannot access the tif file you uploaded to the
>thread...can you upload in a different format or any ideas why I
>cannot download them?
>
>Cheers
>
>James
>
>--------
>Cell +27 83 675 0815
>
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
James,
I think it is interesting that you choose to use the term "pilot/builder".? In
fact, the only thing common among all the XL crashes is that NONE of the involved
pilots were the builders of the airplane that crashed.
I am assuming that the latest crash you refer to is the one in Utah.? It is STRICTLY
a personal opinion, but I believe the same thing happened to that unfortunate
pilot as the phenomena that ended Steve Fossett's storied life - inadvertent
entry into a mountain down draft that the pilot and his airplane simply could
not overcome.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
James Roberts wrote:
Sorry Karl, but if I remember correctly the latest XL crash was on an aircraft
that had recently tensioned the cables and had these confirmed as being correct
(I think it was 6 hours before the incident flight but I stand corrected). Is
it not possible that the issue is more complex than just tightening the cables?
As in the descriptions of the Bonanza incident, the first place which receives
the blame in a crash of unknown cause is the pilot which is not dissimilar to
our situation except it is the pilot/builder. The matter is highly subjective
without clear evidence but I do find it unusual (especially in the latest
incident) that a commercial pilot would fly outside of the envelope of the
aircraft (especially with the aircraft's history of wing failure) as it would
appear that the aircraft in question's aileron cables were appropriately
tensioned.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
Or, the stick was used to remove the wings. As I have related
previously, I was letting a passenger, who was a Piper Tomahawk owner,
fly. It was a gusty day and on climb out at about 80 - 90 kts, the nose
pitched up. He slammed the stick forward to lower the nose and gave the
seat belts a good workout. He did not go too far forward with the stick
as I blocked the stick with my hand; however I have no doubt, he would
have put us through the canopy if not for the belts.
(I still can not believe an experienced pilot would have done something
like that!)
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 524 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
James,
I think it is interesting that you choose to use the term
"pilot/builder". In fact, the only thing common among all the XL
crashes is that NONE of the involved pilots were the builders of the
airplane that crashed.
I am assuming that the latest crash you refer to is the one in Utah.
It is STRICTLY a personal opinion, but I believe the same thing happened
to that unfortunate pilot as the phenomena that ended Steve Fossett's
storied life - inadvertent entry into a mountain down draft that the
pilot and his airplane simply could not overcome.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
James Roberts wrote:
Sorry Karl, but if I remember correctly the latest XL crash was on an
aircraft
that had recently tensioned the cables and had these confirmed as being
correct
(I think it was 6 hours before the incident flight but I stand
corrected). Is
it not possible that the issue is more complex than just tightening the
cables?
As in the descriptions of the Bonanza incident, the first place which
receives
the blame in a crash of unknown cause is the pilot which is not
dissimilar to
our situation except it is the pilot/builder. The matter is highly
subjective
without clear evidence but I do find it unusual (especially in the
latest
incident) that a commercial pilot would fly outside of the envelope of
the
aircraft (especially with the aircraft's history of wing failure) as it
would
appear that the aircraft in question's aileron cables were appropriately
tensioned.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
At 06:00 28-08-09, you wrote:
><james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
>Hi Pete, I cannot access the tif file you uploaded to the
>thread...can you upload in a different format or any ideas why I
>cannot download them?
>
>C
It is a multipage TIFF file that I'm not sure many browsers or
graphics programs naturally read.
There may well be better solutions, but I use plugin
AlternaTIFF (www.alternatiff.com), available for different web browsers.
Free but requires registration.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
Paul - not me I'm afraid I believe that it was another guy who posted the plans...unfortunately
I cannot access the link.
Jay - Mea culpa...after reading the various news articles it appeared to infer
that he was the builder and/or involved in the build. It is a pertinent point
though that you raise...is the reason for the wing failures due to overhandling/flying
outside of the envelope due to the lack of familiarity with the sensitivity
of control etc?...possibly.
However, even the pilot/builder will not have experienced the sensitivity of the
XLs controls until his or her first flight (just the same as a person who buys
a completed XL). So is it realistic to suggest that a pilot/builder will be
more prone to ignoring/being unaware of the over controlling risk?
Similarly, if that were the case, I would expect to hear of similar wing failure
incidents on other homebuilts where the owner is not the builder. It is personal
opinion but I am not convinced by the theory that pilot error is the primary
cause of all of the number of accidents that we have observed.
Cheers
James
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260209#260209
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
Pete54 wrote:
> I know a guy building a recent xl kit which was imported from the US (mine is
a CZAW kit), his airframe has a considerable number of beefed up components within
it compared with mine - generally around the centre section, but also including
the aft wing spar attachment.
What were the differences, especially since this was a recent kit from Zenith?
Did they have anything in common with the new UK recommendations? (I couldn't
view the tif file, so apologies in advance if that would have answered my question).
Thanks,
Patrick
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260211#260211
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
You can use the "Windows Pictures and Fax Viewer" (download the file, then
right click on it and select the Viewer).
Optionally, using Files Explorer, right click the tiff file and select
Preview.
Note that there are* two pairs of buttons *at the bottom of the viewer. The
left most will take you from file to file within the same folder.
The other pair will flip pages within a TIFF file - you can also flip pages
with the page up/down keys on your keyboard.
The file in question has 4 pages.
Carlos
2009/8/28 Peter Chapman <pchap@primus.ca>
>
> At 06:00 28-08-09, you wrote:
>
>> james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>>
>> Hi Pete, I cannot access the tif file you uploaded to the thread...can you
>> upload in a different format or any ideas why I cannot download them?
>>
>> C
>>
>
> It is a multipage TIFF file that I'm not sure many browsers or graphics
> programs naturally read.
>
> There may well be better solutions, but I use plugin AlternaTIFF (
> www.alternatiff.com), available for different web browsers.
> Free but requires registration.
>
>
> Peter Chapman
> Toronto, ON
>
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
I have some experience teaching people to fly the Zodiac as I'm a CFI and
used my Zodiac for a while as a teaching platform. A repeatable
characteristic among those who fly high(er)-wing-loaded aircraft and are
transitioning to the Zodie is their heavy-handedness on the controls. This
generalizes from private pilots to ATPs. In fact, there were two other CFIs
I couldn't sign-off to fly the Zodiac because they couldn't land it - an
almost unbreakable PIO near the ground for both. They were the instructors
who spent most of their time in twins. It's clear (to me) there is a certain
kinesthetic sense required to fly the Zodiac which is conflict with those
built up in other GA airplanes. This seems to be borne out from the
insurance stats. One-finger control to press on the stick to change attitude
followed by trim is the drill I would often use.
Another "quirk" of the Zodiac is the location/height of the gear (I'm
referring to a 2007 AMD airplane) and the angle of incidence of the wing
(lower angle of incidence, not like the 650 is now or the 601 was earlier).
This combination requires a deliberate rotating of the airplane for takeoff.
Without the rotation the airplane will just continue down the runway never
taking off. Given the weight distribution wrt the gear location, the
deliberate action required to rotate is too much stick for maintaining the
nose angle one wants for climbout. Thus, it almost immediately results in a
nose-too-high attitude once the airplane leaves the ground.
The challenge is ensuring folks don't panic at this point and shove the nose
down (gotta ensure you box the stick with your hands!). That can result in a
"good belt workout" at a critical altitude. If one takes off at 60 knots,
there's enough kinetic energy in the airplane for a nice easy correction.
love the plane,
Doug
Near 400 hrs in N601DN
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of T. Graziano
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
Or, the stick was used to remove the wings. As I have related previously, I
was letting a passenger, who was a Piper Tomahawk owner, fly. It was a
gusty day and on climb out at about 80 - 90 kts, the nose pitched up. He
slammed the stick forward to lower the nose and gave the seat belts a good
workout. He did not go too far forward with the stick as I blocked the
stick with my hand; however I have no doubt, he would have put us through
the canopy if not for the belts.
(I still can not believe an experienced pilot would have done something like
that!)
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 524 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
James,
I think it is interesting that you choose to use the term "pilot/builder".
In fact, the only thing common among all the XL crashes is that NONE of the
involved pilots were the builders of the airplane that crashed.
I am assuming that the latest crash you refer to is the one in Utah. It is
STRICTLY a personal opinion, but I believe the same thing happened to that
unfortunate pilot as the phenomena that ended Steve Fossett's storied life -
inadvertent entry into a mountain down draft that the pilot and his airplane
simply could not overcome.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
James Roberts wrote:
Sorry Karl, but if I remember correctly the latest XL crash was on an
aircraft
that had recently tensioned the cables and had these confirmed as being
correct
(I think it was 6 hours before the incident flight but I stand corrected).
Is
it not possible that the issue is more complex than just tightening the
cables?
As in the descriptions of the Bonanza incident, the first place which
receives
the blame in a crash of unknown cause is the pilot which is not dissimilar
to
our situation except it is the pilot/builder. The matter is highly
subjective
without clear evidence but I do find it unusual (especially in the latest
incident) that a commercial pilot would fly outside of the envelope of the
aircraft (especially with the aircraft's history of wing failure) as it
would
appear that the aircraft in question's aileron cables were appropriately
tensioned.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
On Friday 28 August 2009 10:33, PatrickW wrote:
> What were the differences, especially since this was a recent kit from
> Zenith? Did they have anything in common with the new UK recommendations?
> (I couldn't view the tif file, so apologies in advance if that would have
> answered my question).
My 601XL kit, delivered in October of last year, does not have all of the
stiffners added by the drawing. Six additional vertical stiffners are added,
three on either side of the center.
Two of these are pretty much the same as the attach points added for the stick
option. Two are inboard of this, between the stick attach and the center of
the carry-through spar.
The other two are "L" brackets added to the existing outboard wing attach
uprights.
I converted the drawings (the tiff actually has several drawings within it) so
I could read them. If there's enough interest, I'll post them in jpeg format.
I think I'll wait and see if Chris Heintz comments on these changes. I'm not
that convinced they do anything worthwhile.
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 12
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| Subject: | News (sort of) from Mexico, MO on XL changes. |
I just had a telephone conversation with Sebastian Heintz regarding
the LAA drawings now circulating on the net. My impression of the
drawings was that they were originally done by Chris Heintz since
they conform to his drawing style, and I wanted to discuss how to
find the specified materials.
Sebastian told me that the drawings were indeed NOT done by
Chris. Chris has apparently seen the drawings but has some issues with them.
He also told me he is in possession of a drawing for the control
change mentioned at Oshkosh. He doesn't want to release this drawing
until it has been flight tested.
The general idea was that Chris intends to write comments on the LAA
drawings. He also has been working with German engineers on a mass
balance change which has not yet been completed.
I also asked about the promised report from the California engineers
mentioned at Sun n Fun. Sebastian said the output from that group
was self-contradictory and generally useless. He is depending on the
work of the German group along with Chris's efforts with that group.
Sebastian agreed with me that we need to be cautious that any changes
we might make to our planes don't introduce new problems. That is
the role the responsible engineers must fill in reviewing any new
changes. This is nothing new - it applies to all changes proposed to
the designs after they hit the world.
We should expect comments from Chris to be published in the next few
weeks. After waiting this long, we just need to exercise a little
more patience.
Paul
XL awaiting engineering changes
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| Subject: | uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance cost |
This seems to be borne out from the insurance stats (see below)
Doug and others----- what are you folks paying for insurance/coverage
???? Does it cost a lot more for the 601 than for the 701 or 750 for
the same type of coverage ?
Fritz --------------do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug - SportAviation
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
I have some experience teaching people to fly the Zodiac as I'm a CFI
and used my Zodiac for a while as a teaching platform. A repeatable
characteristic among those who fly high(er)-wing-loaded aircraft and are
transitioning to the Zodie is their heavy-handedness on the controls.
This generalizes from private pilots to ATPs. In fact, there were two
other CFIs I couldn't sign-off to fly the Zodiac because they couldn't
land it - an almost unbreakable PIO near the ground for both. They were
the instructors who spent most of their time in twins. It's clear (to
me) there is a certain kinesthetic sense required to fly the Zodiac
which is conflict with those built up in other GA airplanes. This seems
to be borne out from the insurance stats. One-finger control to press on
the stick to change attitude followed by trim is the drill I would often
use.
Another "quirk" of the Zodiac is the location/height of the gear (I'm
referring to a 2007 AMD airplane) and the angle of incidence of the wing
(lower angle of incidence, not like the 650 is now or the 601 was
earlier). This combination requires a deliberate rotating of the
airplane for takeoff. Without the rotation the airplane will just
continue down the runway never taking off. Given the weight
distribution wrt the gear location, the deliberate action required to
rotate is too much stick for maintaining the nose angle one wants for
climbout. Thus, it almost immediately results in a nose-too-high
attitude once the airplane leaves the ground.
The challenge is ensuring folks don't panic at this point and shove
the nose down (gotta ensure you box the stick with your hands!). That
can result in a "good belt workout" at a critical altitude. If one takes
off at 60 knots, there's enough kinetic energy in the airplane for a
nice easy correction.
love the plane,
Doug
Near 400 hrs in N601DN
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of T.
Graziano
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:02 AM
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
Or, the stick was used to remove the wings. As I have related
previously, I was letting a passenger, who was a Piper Tomahawk owner,
fly. It was a gusty day and on climb out at about 80 - 90 kts, the nose
pitched up. He slammed the stick forward to lower the nose and gave the
seat belts a good workout. He did not go too far forward with the stick
as I blocked the stick with my hand; however I have no doubt, he would
have put us through the canopy if not for the belts.
(I still can not believe an experienced pilot would have done
something like that!)
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 524 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for
flight
James,
I think it is interesting that you choose to use the term
"pilot/builder". In fact, the only thing common among all the XL
crashes is that NONE of the involved pilots were the builders of the
airplane that crashed.
I am assuming that the latest crash you refer to is the one in Utah.
It is STRICTLY a personal opinion, but I believe the same thing
happened to that unfortunate pilot as the phenomena that ended Steve
Fossett's storied life - inadvertent entry into a mountain down draft
that the pilot and his airplane simply could not overcome.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
James Roberts wrote:
Sorry Karl, but if I remember correctly the latest XL crash was on an
aircraft
that had recently tensioned the cables and had these confirmed as being
correct
(I think it was 6 hours before the incident flight but I stand
corrected). Is
it not possible that the issue is more complex than just tightening the
cables?
As in the descriptions of the Bonanza incident, the first place which
receives
the blame in a crash of unknown cause is the pilot which is not
dissimilar to
our situation except it is the pilot/builder. The matter is highly
subjective
without clear evidence but I do find it unusual (especially in the
latest
incident) that a commercial pilot would fly outside of the envelope of
the
aircraft (especially with the aircraft's history of wing failure) as it
would
appear that the aircraft in question's aileron cables were appropriately
tensioned.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h
ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">
http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
Doug,
I flew your airplane when it was based at CAMS Flight in Florida for a checkout
prior to flying mine on it's first flight. It was great to have a 601XL available
so close to Sun-N-Fun when I attended in 2008. My favorite picture here
at work my me next to your beautiful airplane with palm trees in the background.
I was pleased that the Instructor there was very thorough in describing the pitch
control of the XL. I had heard about pitch sensitivity on the forums and was
glad to see he was on top of it. The checkout went smoothly as a result with
me careful not to get into pitch PIO.
Of the small handful of rides I have given to pilots and non-pilots, it is the
certified pilots that I am most watchful of. I have briefed them all about the
pitch sensitivity prior to relinquishing the stick. The non-pilots have been
very good at keeping to small movements. This is probably due to their unfamiliarity
with flying, in general, combined with a bit of apprehension (dare I
call it fear?). Most of the pilots start ham fisting it right away. I do not
have much of a stomach for negative G's and have immediately grabbed the stick
on several occasions to tame them down.
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
100 hours and climbing!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260247#260247
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance |
cost
Fritz,
Without going thru the variables of pilot time, aircraft history etc,
you'd find insurance for normal Liability at approx $300., Ground only
not in motion at approx $800.
and Full Coverage in motion, storage, in flight etc for nearly $1500. or
less. These numbers are 601HDS at 140 hours, pilot at 500 hours and a
good steel hangar on a
full service International airport. Most of my friends are liability
only, and I've moved from full coverage to ground only not in motion.
Next year, it'll be liability only.
I'd think aircraft models in light aircraft would be priced to basic
replacement value.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
fritz wrote:
> This seems to be borne out from the insurance stats (see below)
>
> Doug and others----- what are you folks paying for insurance/coverage
> ???? Does it cost a lot more for the 601 than for the 701 or 750
> for the same type of coverage ?
>
> Fritz --------------do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance cost |
I pay $1,600 per yr with a hull value of $89K, $0 deductible
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:54 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight/ insurance
cost
This seems to be borne out from the insurance stats (see below)
Doug and others----- what are you folks paying for insurance/coverage ????
Does it cost a lot more for the 601 than for the 701 or 750 for the same
type of coverage ?
Fritz --------------do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug - SportAviation <mailto:Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
I have some experience teaching people to fly the Zodiac as I'm a CFI and
used my Zodiac for a while as a teaching platform. A repeatable
characteristic among those who fly high(er)-wing-loaded aircraft and are
transitioning to the Zodie is their heavy-handedness on the controls. This
generalizes from private pilots to ATPs. In fact, there were two other CFIs
I couldn't sign-off to fly the Zodiac because they couldn't land it - an
almost unbreakable PIO near the ground for both. They were the instructors
who spent most of their time in twins. It's clear (to me) there is a certain
kinesthetic sense required to fly the Zodiac which is conflict with those
built up in other GA airplanes. This seems to be borne out from the
insurance stats. One-finger control to press on the stick to change attitude
followed by trim is the drill I would often use.
Another "quirk" of the Zodiac is the location/height of the gear (I'm
referring to a 2007 AMD airplane) and the angle of incidence of the wing
(lower angle of incidence, not like the 650 is now or the 601 was earlier).
This combination requires a deliberate rotating of the airplane for takeoff.
Without the rotation the airplane will just continue down the runway never
taking off. Given the weight distribution wrt the gear location, the
deliberate action required to rotate is too much stick for maintaining the
nose angle one wants for climbout. Thus, it almost immediately results in a
nose-too-high attitude once the airplane leaves the ground.
The challenge is ensuring folks don't panic at this point and shove the nose
down (gotta ensure you box the stick with your hands!). That can result in a
"good belt workout" at a critical altitude. If one takes off at 60 knots,
there's enough kinetic energy in the airplane for a nice easy correction.
love the plane,
Doug
Near 400 hrs in N601DN
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of T. Graziano
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
Or, the stick was used to remove the wings. As I have related previously, I
was letting a passenger, who was a Piper Tomahawk owner, fly. It was a
gusty day and on climb out at about 80 - 90 kts, the nose pitched up. He
slammed the stick forward to lower the nose and gave the seat belts a good
workout. He did not go too far forward with the stick as I blocked the
stick with my hand; however I have no doubt, he would have put us through
the canopy if not for the belts.
(I still can not believe an experienced pilot would have done something like
that!)
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 524 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
James,
I think it is interesting that you choose to use the term "pilot/builder".
In fact, the only thing common among all the XL crashes is that NONE of the
involved pilots were the builders of the airplane that crashed.
I am assuming that the latest crash you refer to is the one in Utah. It is
STRICTLY a personal opinion, but I believe the same thing happened to that
unfortunate pilot as the phenomena that ended Steve Fossett's storied life -
inadvertent entry into a mountain down draft that the pilot and his airplane
simply could not overcome.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
James Roberts wrote:
Sorry Karl, but if I remember correctly the latest XL crash was on an
aircraft
that had recently tensioned the cables and had these confirmed as being
correct
(I think it was 6 hours before the incident flight but I stand corrected).
Is
it not possible that the issue is more complex than just tightening the
cables?
As in the descriptions of the Bonanza incident, the first place which
receives
the blame in a crash of unknown cause is the pilot which is not dissimilar
to
our situation except it is the pilot/builder. The matter is highly
subjective
without clear evidence but I do find it unusual (especially in the latest
incident) that a commercial pilot would fly outside of the envelope of the
aircraft (especially with the aircraft's history of wing failure) as it
would
appear that the aircraft in question's aileron cables were appropriately
tensioned.
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) |
I've had an off-list request to post the converted (from TIFF) plans
somewhere. I just put them up on my web site:
hjttp://www.anemicaardvark.com/Z601XL/UKMods20090828.pdf
Firefox will open these directly under Windows XP, or you should be able to
ftp them from this same address. I used the pdf format, since it appears to
be widely available, and allowed all the pages to be included in a single
document.
1) I will leave this file up for a few days, after which the space will likely
be used for other things. If you want it, it would be wisest to download it
while you're thinking of it.
2) The server at my web site is Linux based, and is thus case sensitive. You
need to keep the upper and lower case as shown above.
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) |
On Friday 28 August 2009 14:00, Jim Belcher wrote:
> <z601a@anemicaardvark.com>
>
> I've had an off-list request to post the converted (from TIFF) plans
> somewhere. I just put them up on my web site:
>
> hjttp://www.anemicaardvark.com/Z601XL/UKMods20090828.pdf
>
> Firefox will open these directly under Windows XP, or you should be able to
> ftp them from this same address. I used the pdf format, since it appears to
> be widely available, and allowed all the pages to be included in a single
> document.
>
> 1) I will leave this file up for a few days, after which the space will
> likely be used for other things. If you want it, it would be wisest to
> download it while you're thinking of it.
>
> 2) The server at my web site is Linux based, and is thus case sensitive.
> You need to keep the upper and lower case as shown above.
"hjttp" in line 8 should be "http"
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) |
z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote:
> On Friday 28 August 2009 14:00, Jim Belcher wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I've had an off-list request to post the converted (from TIFF) plans
> > somewhere. I just put them up on my web site:
> >
> > hjttp://www.anemicaardvark.com/Z601XL/UKMods20090828.pdf
> >
> > Firefox will open these directly under Windows XP, or you should be able to
> > ftp them from this same address. I used the pdf format, since it appears to
> > be widely available, and allowed all the pages to be included in a single
> > document.
> >
> > 1) I will leave this file up for a few days, after which the space will
> > likely be used for other things. If you want it, it would be wisest to
> > download it while you're thinking of it.
> >
> > 2) The server at my web site is Linux based, and is thus case sensitive.
> > You need to keep the upper and lower case as shown above.
> >
> >
>
> "hjttp" in line 8 should be "http"
> --
> ============================================
> Do not archive.
> ============================================
> Jim B Belcher
> BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
> A&P/IA
> Retired aerospace technical manager
> ============================================
http://www.anemicaardvark.com/Z601XL/UKMods20090828.pdf
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260277#260277
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight |
David,
I'm glad you were able to be introduced to the Zodie in my airplane; and
thanks for the kind words about it.
Best of continued good fortune to you and your airplane.
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 1:56 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
Doug,
I flew your airplane when it was based at CAMS Flight in Florida for a
checkout prior to flying mine on it's first flight. It was great to have a
601XL available so close to Sun-N-Fun when I attended in 2008. My favorite
picture here at work my me next to your beautiful airplane with palm trees
in the background.
I was pleased that the Instructor there was very thorough in describing the
pitch control of the XL. I had heard about pitch sensitivity on the forums
and was glad to see he was on top of it. The checkout went smoothly as a
result with me careful not to get into pitch PIO.
Of the small handful of rides I have given to pilots and non-pilots, it is
the certified pilots that I am most watchful of. I have briefed them all
about the pitch sensitivity prior to relinquishing the stick. The
non-pilots have been very good at keeping to small movements. This is
probably due to their unfamiliarity with flying, in general, combined with a
bit of apprehension (dare I call it fear?). Most of the pilots start ham
fisting it right away. I do not have much of a stomach for negative G's and
have immediately grabbed the stick on several occasions to tame them down.
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
100 hours and climbing!
Read this topic online here:
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Converted UK Mods (TIFF to PDF) |
thanks Jim...
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260328#260328
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Hi Guys,
I received my camlocs for the cowling from ASSC the other day.
Attached is a photo. The photo shows:-
40S5-3S SS CAMLOC STUD
4002-NS CAMLOC GROMMET
214-16ND CAMLOC 4002 Receptacle
How do I get the stud into the grommet. Do I have to remove the pin? If so,
how?
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
<http://zodiac.cpc-world.com/> http://zodiac.cpc-world.com
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