---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/01/09: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:16 AM - PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! (Matt Dralle) 1. 01:11 AM - Re: 601 nose gear (aussiech650) 2. 04:56 AM - Re: Complete 601XL kit for sale. (cleone24) 3. 08:00 AM - Re: XL rear spar (Jim Belcher) 4. 08:27 AM - 601 XL Project For Sale W/Cont O-200 (Clyde Barcus) 5. 08:41 AM - Re: 601 XL Project For Sale W/Cont O-200 (Jim Belcher) 6. 08:44 AM - 601XL for sale (Correction) (Clyde Barcus) 7. 09:51 AM - Re: XL rear spar (jaybannist@cs.com) 8. 11:14 AM - Re: Complete 601XL kit for sale. (Walter Carey) 9. 11:23 AM - Chat Reminder (George Race) 10. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 (Jim Belcher) 11. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 (Craig Payne) 12. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 (Karl Polifka) 13. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 (Floyd Wilkes) 14. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 (Jim Belcher) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:48 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith601-List: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! Dear Listers, Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's solely through the Contributions of List members that these Matronics Lists are possible. There is NO advertising to support the Lists. You might have noticed the conspicuous lack of flashing banners and annoying pop-ups on the Matronics Email List email messages and web site pages such as the Matronics List Forums ( http://forums.matronics.com ), the List Wiki ( http://wiki.matronics.com), or other related pages such as the List Search Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ), the List Browser ( http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements. During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every couple of days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages. The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all of the bills associated with running these lists. Your personal Contribution counts! Once again, this year I've got a terrific line up of free gifts to go along with the various Contribution levels. Most all of these gifts have been provided by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on Matronics Lists and have been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates. This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/). These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites. Each one offers a unique and very useful aviation-related product line. I would like publicly to thank Bob, Andy, and Jon for their generous support of the Lists again this year!! You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All three methods afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying Contribution amount!! To make your Contribution, please visit the secure site below: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral support over the years! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:03 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 nose gear From: "aussiech650" I assume (you know what they say about that) they are saying they have drilled a hole in the base plate on the gear leg for drainage and therefore this would also require holes in the gear forks to allow that drainage to take place. My CH650 leg only has one hole drilled in the bottom of the nose leg at the back just above the weld. I have added an item to my annual inspection checklist to ensure this hole is clear and spray some water dispersant in the hole. Greg Cox Sydney Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270403#270403 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:11 AM PST US From: "cleone24" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Complete 601XL kit for sale. I am interested. Please advise if you still have it. cleone24@mchsi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Carey To: 601XL builders Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:23 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Complete 601XL kit for sale. If anyone is interested or knows of someone thinking of buying a 601 kit, the following is for sale: Complete 601XL kit, including aux 12 gal fuel tanks (48 gal total), landing/nav/strobe lights, ect. Wings 90 %, flaps 100%, ailerons 100%, empennage 100%, fuselage 25% complete. Built to plans. Workmanship rated "excellent" on both EAA Technical Advisor visits, and "excellent" by NAAA (National Aircraft Appraisers Association) appraiser in Jun 09. $10,000 firm. Contact Walt Carey at 937-426-8095 or at www.careywf@sbcglobal.net. Located Dayton, Ohio. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:38 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: XL rear spar On Saturday 31 October 2009 11:53, jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Let's put this hole in the rear spar in perspective. See attached pdf. > Comments?? Jay - In re-reading yesterday's mail., I feel I failed, in my reply to you, to correctly address the issue. I may (I hope not) have given the impression I was just being diagreeable, and flipping off the question. I thought some on the truss vs hole in the spar issue, and why I felt as I did. Here's what I came up with: A truss is usually made by adding triangular bracing to a pair of parallel supports. The advantage over just using a solid piece of wood, metal, or whatever, is that the brace is lighter. As I recall, it can never be as strong as a solid piece of the same material of the same general size, but it can be lighter and cheaper. But a major difference between it and a solid piece of material is that one determines the strength needed, and either designs or has built an appropriate truss. That's a design to requirement process. Conversely, when one has a solid piece of metal, like a spar, or perhaps a wood stud in a wall, there is sometimes a need to have a hole penetrate the material. Of course, round holes are generally used, so that the stress is more equally distributed. The question then becomes, how big a hole, and how close to the edge can the hole be, before impacting the strength of the material? That, I believe, is the question in the case of the hole in the 601XL rear spar. I see the truss as being a question of how we make it strong enough, and the hole a question of how we not impact the strength. Similar issues, but not quite the same. -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. Do not drink and derive. ============================================ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:18 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Zenith601-List: 601 XL Project For Sale W/Cont O-200 I have concluded my hip and joint problems (Along with up-coming surgery) will make it extremely difficult for me to get in and out of a high wing aircraft so I am putting it up for sale. It is roughly 60 to 70% finished, the kit is complete with dual sticks, dual brakes, nav lights, strobes, wheel pants and wing lockers. The Continental O-200 is complete with logs and accessories excepting exhaust. My price is $14,000 for everything, I will consider trades, especially classic car/project. I want to sell the engine and kit together. If you have any interest, contact me off line at barcusc@comcast.net. Clyde Barcus (615) 822-2135 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:20 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: 601 XL Project For Sale W/Cont O-200 Best of luck on the surgery. I know it can be a real problem to get in and out of aircraft wtih physical limitations, and I'm sorry you won't be able to enjoy your aircraft. On Sunday 01 November 2009 10:19, Clyde Barcus wrote: > I have concluded my hip and joint problems (Along with up-coming surgery) > will make it extremely difficult for me to get in and out of a high wing > aircraft so I am putting it up for sale. It is roughly 60 to 70% finished, > the kit is complete with dual sticks, dual brakes, nav lights, strobes, > wheel pants and wing lockers. The Continental O-200 is complete with logs > and accessories excepting exhaust. My price is $14,000 for everything, I > will consider trades, especially classic car/project. I want to sell the > engine and kit together. If you have any interest, contact me off line at > barcusc@comcast.net. > > Clyde Barcus > (615) 822-2135 -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. Do not drink and derive. ============================================ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:02 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Zenith601-List: 601XL for sale (Correction) Obviously I meant low wing, I was thinking about a flying a high wing after rehab. Regards Clyde ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: XL rear spar From: jaybannist@cs.com Jim, As far as I am concerned, we are sharing points of view, not arguing. On reading your last post, I think you are overlooking the fact that the spar is not like a rectangular wood beam or a stud; it has top and bottom flanges. What you say would be absolutely true if there were no flanges. Edge distance would certainly be critical. But there are flanges; doubl e flanges when you count the skins. That makes the vertical part of the spar a web, not a stand-alone beam. It would be more like a metal stud than a wood stud. Those guys are pretty light weight, full of holes in the web and they are very "floppy" until you stabilize and reinforce the flanges with gypsum wallboard. Then they are as strong, or stronger than a solid wood stud. The same with that spar. It is very "floppy" until the flanges are stabilized and reinforced by the skins. And again, that web, where the hole is, primarily serves to locate the flanges, not to ca rry bending loads. Once again, look at the size and location of the "holes " in a truss. That hole in the spar can be practically flange to flange and not effect the strength of the structural system. I say "practically" , because from a durability point, the hole should obviously not touch the radius between the web and the flange. Yes, a truss does save weight, but it absolutely can be as strong as a so lid beam. All structural members contribute to dead load. Given two str uctural members of the same strength, the lighter one always wins because it allows more live load; and carrying the live load is why we have the structure in the first place. Jay - m> Jay - In re-reading yesterday's mail., I feel I failed, in my reply to you, to correctly address the issue. I may (I hope not) have given the impression I was just being diagreeable, and flipping off the question. I thought some on the truss vs hole in the spar issue, and why I felt as I did. Here's what I came up with: A truss is usually made by adding triangular bracing to a pair of parallel supports. The advantage over just using a solid piece of wood, metal, or whatever, is that the brace is lighter. As I recall, it can never be as strong as a solid piece of the same material of the same general size, but it can be lighter and cheaper. But a major difference between it and a solid piece of material is that on e determines the strength needed, and either designs or has built an appropriate truss. That's a design to requirement process. Conversely, when one has a solid piece of metal, like a spar, or perhaps a wood stud in a wall, there is sometimes a need to have a hole penetrate th e material. Of course, round holes are generally used, so that the stress is more equally distributed. The question then becomes, =9Chow big a ho le, and how close to the edge can the hole be, before impacting the strength of the material?=9D That, I believe, is the question in the case of the hole in the 601XL rear spar. I see the truss as being a question of how we make it strong enough, and the hole a question of how we not impact the strength. Similar issues, but not quite the same. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:37 AM PST US From: Walter Carey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Complete 601XL kit for sale. I still have the complete kit as I only listed it a few day ago. If still interersted, send snail mail address and I will mail youdetailed info on kit and copy of appraisal. Also have FWF kit for Jabiru 3300 that's for sale (price not determined yet)and new Jabiru 3300A (hydraulic lifters) engine that I may or may not sell. It's a beautiful engine. Haven't determined price I want to sell them for as of yet. Waltin Dayton, Ohio. --- On Sun, 11/1/09, cleone24 wrote: From: cleone24 Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Complete 601XL kit for sale. I am interested. Please advise if you still have it.cleone24@mchsi..com ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Carey Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 4:23 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Complete 601XL kit for sale. If anyone is interested or knows of someone thinking of buying a 601 kit, the following is for sale: Complete 601XL kit, includingaux 12 gal fuel tanks (48 gal total), landing/nav/strobe lights, ect. Wings 90 %,flaps 100%, ailerons 100%, empennage 100%, fuselage 25% complete. Built to plans.Workmanship rated "excellent" on both EAA Technical Advisor visits, and "excellent" by NAAA (National Aircraft Appraisers Association)appraiser inJun 09. $10,000 firm. Contact Walt Carey at 937-426-8095 or at www.careywf@sbcglobal.net. Located Dayton, Ohio. href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:34 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith601-List: Chat Reminder Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT www.mykitairplane.com Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page. George ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:08 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 Thanks. I reviewed the relevant area of the video, and looked up the fasteners on the Internet. You're right on both counts: they look like they'd work better, but it looks like enough to do the XL would cost $300-$400. However, unless I come up with something like looks like it would work, that may be the only choice. On Monday 26 October 2009 19:47, Sabrina wrote: > > I used 13 (7 top, 6 bottom) Camloc CM1 adjustable depth receptacles. I > made up my own brackets and mounted them to the firewall. My cowling is > mounted outside the sideskins. > > At 4 minutes into this video you can see the brackets: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQfypsw8k4 > > I am at school and do not have access to my plans or build photos. > > They are not cheap, but they hold much better than my attempts with Dzus > fasteners. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269579#269579 > > -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. Do not drink and derive. ============================================ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:01 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 MilSpec also has a line of adjustable Camloc clones. A number of VAF guys did a group buy a few years ago: http://www.milspecproducts.com/index.html http://www.milspecproducts.com/26002700c-lock.htm#receptacles I don't know if they cost more or less than the Camloc parts. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 4:34 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 Thanks. I reviewed the relevant area of the video, and looked up the fasteners on the Internet. You're right on both counts: they look like they'd work better, but it looks like enough to do the XL would cost $300-$400. However, unless I come up with something like looks like it would work, that may be the only choice. On Monday 26 October 2009 19:47, Sabrina wrote: > > I used 13 (7 top, 6 bottom) Camloc CM1 adjustable depth receptacles. I > made up my own brackets and mounted them to the firewall. My cowling is > mounted outside the sideskins. > > At 4 minutes into this video you can see the brackets: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQfypsw8k4 > > I am at school and do not have access to my plans or build photos. > > They are not cheap, but they hold much better than my attempts with Dzus > fasteners. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269579#269579 > > -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. Do not drink and derive. ============================================ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:10 PM PST US From: "Karl Polifka" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 While it was about 3-4 years ago when I bought camlocs for the same application -- although difficult to buy at the time they were about, on average, $4 each. Karl -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Belcher" Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 6:34 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 > > > Thanks. I reviewed the relevant area of the video, and looked up the > fasteners > on the Internet. You're right on both counts: they look like they'd work > better, but it looks like enough to do the XL would cost $300-$400. > > However, unless I come up with something like looks like it would work, > that > may be the only choice. > > > On Monday 26 October 2009 19:47, Sabrina wrote: >> >> I used 13 (7 top, 6 bottom) Camloc CM1 adjustable depth receptacles. I >> made up my own brackets and mounted them to the firewall. My cowling is >> mounted outside the sideskins. >> >> At 4 minutes into this video you can see the brackets: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQfypsw8k4 >> >> I am at school and do not have access to my plans or build photos. >> >> They are not cheap, but they hold much better than my attempts with Dzus >> fasteners. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269579#269579 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > ============================================ > Do not archive. > ============================================ > Jim B Belcher > BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science > A&P/IA > Retired aerospace technical manager > > Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. > Do not drink and derive. > ============================================ > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:11 PM PST US From: "Floyd Wilkes" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 Jim, I used hinges to connect the bottom cowl to the fuselage. Pictures at http://picasaweb.google.com/floyd.wilkes/2008_02_07# I used nutplates and screws to attach the top cowl. I take off the top cowl then just pull the pin and the bottom is off. This method is used a lot by the RV folks. This is a fairly cheap way to do it. Floyd Wilkes 601XL O-200 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 Thanks. I reviewed the relevant area of the video, and looked up the fasteners on the Internet. You're right on both counts: they look like they'd work better, but it looks like enough to do the XL would cost $300-$400. However, unless I come up with something like looks like it would work, that may be the only choice. On Monday 26 October 2009 19:47, Sabrina wrote: > > I used 13 (7 top, 6 bottom) Camloc CM1 adjustable depth receptacles. I > made up my own brackets and mounted them to the firewall. My cowling is > mounted outside the sideskins. > > At 4 minutes into this video you can see the brackets: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQfypsw8k4 > > I am at school and do not have access to my plans or build photos. > > They are not cheap, but they hold much better than my attempts with Dzus > fasteners. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269579#269579 > > -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. Do not drink and derive. ============================================ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:42 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling attachment, O200 I would agree it should be less expensive, and probably adequate structurally. But doesn't the bend in the piano wire in the hinge make it difficult to remove? On Sunday 01 November 2009 18:56, Floyd Wilkes wrote: > > Jim, > > I used hinges to connect the bottom cowl to the fuselage. Pictures at > http://picasaweb.google.com/floyd.wilkes/2008_02_07# > > I used nutplates and screws to attach the top cowl. > > I take off the top cowl then just pull the pin and the bottom is off. > This method is used a lot by the RV folks. > > This is a fairly cheap way to do it. ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. 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