Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:43 AM - Fund Raiser List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
1. 03:30 AM - Re: 601 nose gear (Thruster87)
2. 04:01 AM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 06:12 AM - Re: SAIB (BobTezyk)
4. 06:33 AM - Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Karl Polifka)
5. 07:19 AM - 601 hds/hd wanted to buy!!! desperate!!! (wmiller)
6. 07:41 AM - Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Sabrina)
7. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: SAIB (Paul Mulwitz)
8. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Bill Pagan)
10. 08:25 AM - The real work of the update on the CH601XL (mhubel)
11. 08:45 AM - Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Sabrina)
12. 09:17 AM - Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 09:48 AM - Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Scotsman)
14. 09:50 AM - Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Scotsman)
15. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: 601XL down in Arkansas (Bryan Martin)
16. 10:18 AM - Re: 601XL down in Arkansas (Sabrina)
17. 10:42 AM - NO Hull insurance ?????? (fritz)
18. 10:43 AM - Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL (Jay Maynard)
19. 10:44 AM - Q&A With Chris Heintz (Frank Derfler)
20. 10:55 AM - Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (John Smith)
21. 11:32 AM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (annken100)
22. 11:44 AM - Re: NO Hull insurance ?????? (Bill Steer)
23. 11:51 AM - Re: NO Hull insurance ?????? (mhubel)
24. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Zenith601 wing mod (Craig Payne)
25. 11:55 AM - Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL (mhubel)
26. 12:08 PM - Re: Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL (Paul Mulwitz)
27. 01:05 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Terry Phillips)
28. 01:21 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Bill Pagan)
29. 01:24 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (annken100)
30. 01:34 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Greg Cox)
31. 01:38 PM - Re: Re:Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Gary Gower)
32. 02:29 PM - load test question (hallert)
33. 02:50 PM - Re: load test question (J.T. Machin)
34. 03:16 PM - Re: load test question (Bryan Martin)
35. 03:52 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (John Smith)
36. 04:34 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (PatrickW)
37. 04:53 PM - Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Craig Payne)
38. 04:55 PM - Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade (PatrickW)
39. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Paul Mulwitz)
40. 04:58 PM - Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade (LHusky@aol.com)
41. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (J.T. Machin)
42. 05:16 PM - Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade (Ronald Steele)
43. 06:01 PM - Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade (PatrickW)
44. 06:58 PM - Re: Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade (Ronald Steele)
45. 09:14 PM - Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Gary Gower)
46. 09:56 PM - Re:Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Gary Gower)
47. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (John Smith)
48. 10:13 PM - Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Gary Gower)
49. 10:20 PM - Re: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? (Gary Gower)
Message 0
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Fund Raiser List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way
of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for
the Lists.
Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment
tool as your typical magazine subscription!
Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is
fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 nose gear |
Ron Lendon wrote:
>
> Thruster87 wrote:
> >
> > craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> > > Hmm, I've read this three times and don't see how it differs from the design
on the ZAC aircraft (except maybe the 3/8 inch rods). What am I missing?
> > >
> > > -- Craig
> > >
> > > --
> > Fork 3/4" thick [solid as I understand it] ours are only two plates by 1/4"
each Cheers
>
>
> My prints show that 6G1-2 & 6G1-5 plate thickness as 3/16" not 1/4".
Hi Ron, I didn't measure mine just looked at the damaged part.But I'm going to
put extra strength into it, one way or another to counter the side ways weakness
Cheers T87
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271867#271867
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
Hi Jay,
After further reading and thinking over the situation I would like to
add to my previous comments on your question.
I am delighted that Chris made the personal effort to come up with
the change package. My biggest concern with any changes was that
they might have negative impacts on the rest of the airframe
design. I decided I wanted someone with design responsibility to
review the changes and offer the opinion that the changes would at
least not reduce the overall design safety. To have Chirs himself do
this is a bonus in my opinion. He is retired, but apparently he
hasn't given up personal responsibility for this design.
Part of my own thoughts over the last few months has been what to do
in the event that my Zodiac was still grounded when my lease on the
Tecnam runs out next Spring. The most important idea I had was
this: The difference between having a plane to fly and no plane to
fly is much greater than the difference between having one model
plane vs. another model. I submit this is a good way for those who
are worried about possible performance or handling changes in the
Zodiacs to consider when the new design improvements are installed in
their planes.
With the FAA, EAA, Chris Heintz, and probably Santa Claus urging all
owners to install the design changes, I hope everyone will do
this. For my money, the improvement in safety is much more important
than a possible reduction of a knot or two in speed or a few pounds
of useful load.
To those owners who are just now discovering that owning an airplane
includes unexpected expenses I offer my sympathy. In truth this
applies to all airplanes.
I remember someone commenting a few months ago about "The horse that
can't be rode". Hopefully these changes will transform the Zodiac XL
(and its twin the 650) into the well behaved design we all wanted
when we chose it.
Paul
XL getting ready to order upgrade kit
At 06:49 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote:
>I hope so. The question I have for you, Paul, is: Will you accept the changes
>as AMD issues them, or will you insist that they include other changes if
>you don't think they addressed the issues?
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Paul,
My experience does not support your theory.
I had a forced landing several weeks ago in a 601XL without the modifications and
neither the FAA or the insurance company took any of the actions you said they
would. The SAIB question never came up in any of the interviews or communication.
--------
do not archive
Regards,
Bob Tezyk
N78QT - 601XL QB/ Jab3300
Working on the Wings
http://neo.datamatrix.com/eaglesnestestates/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=23
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271890#271890
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
I just talked to Zenith. The wing mod parts, and pricing, will be ready in
a few days. You can lean back in your foxholes.
Karl
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 601 hds/hd wanted to buy!!! desperate!!! |
Hi guys:
Great site, just discovered it. I live in Calgary Ab, Canada and have been
looking to buy a HDS now for several months. although these planes are plentiful
in the States, there are not many that come up for sale in Canada. I thought I
might have better luck tossing out a thread to this group to see if anyone knows
of aircraft for sale. I have placed several ads on Barnstormers but have had
little luck. My budget is around 30K give or take. I will list in order of
priority what I am after, but will probably be interested in almost any
combination. would also prefer a Canadian registered plane (importing is
possible but troublesome)but once again would import for the right airplane.
Here it goes!!!
HDS TAILDRAGGER with a Rotax-Lycoming-Continental
HDS TALDRAGGER Corvair
HDS " " " Subaru
HD TAILDRAGGER
Would also take a Nose wheel if it had a Rotax-cont-Lycoming
So basicly am looking for a tailwheel plane with a non-automotive type
engine........But hey, can't be picky. So iam willing to entertain just about
anything!!!!!
Cheers!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271906#271906
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
Update Package...
PRICING?
It should be free!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271912#271912
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi Bob,
The SAIB wasn't issued until Saturday November, 7 2009. Nobody
except the authors, the super-secret FAA, and the sworn-to-secrecy
Heintz associates was aware it was in progress.
I think things changed Saturday when all this became public.
Paul
At 06:12 AM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>My experience does not support your theory.
>
>I had a forced landing several weeks ago in a 601XL without the
>modifications and neither the FAA or the insurance company took any
>of the actions you said they would. The SAIB question never came up
>in any of the interviews or communication.
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
Hi Sabrina,
If you can convince Sebastian to send me an upgrade kit for free,
I'll take you out for a free dinner.
Paul
At 07:41 AM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
>Update Package...
>
>PRICING?
>
>It should be free!
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
I agree it should be free.- I paid the extra $ for a QBK and now have to
disassemble and rebuild a bunch of stuff I paid extra for. ;8^(
Bill Pagan
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith601 wing mod
Update Package...
PRICING?
It should be free!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271912#271912
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | The real work of the update on the CH601XL |
I have been looking at the drawings posted by Zenith. It would appear that to implement
these changes one must remove all the rivets from the top of the wings
and effectively completely dis-assemble the center consul and wing spar area
in the fuselage. While building the plane was interesting, doing it half again
might be a bit much. It looks like this is a 150-200 hour "update" assuming
no problems are encountered. This significantly dwarfs the cost of any kit.
AMD says this is to be done by a licensed mechanic on their planes. That would
be at least a $20K update. Am I missing something?
If not, might an engine and radios be worth anything?
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271925#271925
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
At the very least they should send us, at no charge, a letter we can keep in our
cockpit if we get ramp checked telling the FAA:
If built to original plans,
What are the V speeds?
What are the ultimate G forces?
What is the maximum gross weight?
Not that I have any plans on flying it for the rest of 2009--we just talked to
Avemco, no hull coverage is available, mods or no mods.
Another comment: I just finished helping my parents roof our house, I was surprised
to see that roofing shingles were used to test the upgraded 650XL. They
vary in weight and size considerablythere is no way the FAA should accept such
testing. We put on 54 bundles of three tab 30 year shingles on our house.
Depending upon which one was more damp than the other, the bundle could weigh
nearly twice as much.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271926#271926
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL |
Hi Mike,
I agree with your basic logic, but I think you have overestimated the
time to do the updates. Of course, we haven't yet seen all the
updates, so we are both a bit premature.
If you have assembled this stuff yourself, and get all the materials
and parts in their expected condition from ZAC, I think you could do
all this stuff in a week or two of full time effort. If you haven't
yet reached this point in construction then the changes add even less
effort. Of course, scratch builders will need more time to obtain
materials and prepare parts similar to the factory kit parts.
The people I feel the most empathy for are the ones who have
purchased an already built experimental Zodiac XL. They will have
few great choices about how to get the changes done.
The wing/carry through/seat modifications shown in the posted
drawings do involve removing a lot of rivets and replacing them along
with additional parts. The alignment, drilling, deburring, and other
steps on existing parts are already done and don't get changed. Once
you get some practice, drilling out these rivets only takes a few
seconds, maybe a minute, each.
For anyone who wants my technique, I drill rivets just skin deep
starting with #40 drill. Then I continue with #30 and #20 if needed
until the head pops off. Then it is just a matter of removing the
stem from the hole with either the appropriate drill or a punch and
mallet. It really is faster to do then describe if you don't count
time for changing drill bits. If you do a whole bunch of rivets at
once then the drill changing time becomes trivial. The other little
pointer is after you get all the rivets removed from the skin you
might want to find all the remains and remove them from the wing
before reclosing it.
For a mechanic who is not familiar with this construction method and
doesn't have the special tools like the rivet setter this could
indeed take 200 or more hours. Just a wild guess on my part: This
might justify returning the plane to AMD for modifications. That may
be what the writers of the FAA document had in mind when they
mentioned ferry permits.
One part of this you didn't include (I think) is possibly repainting
the wings. This could indeed be a big expense.
Paul
At 08:25 AM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
>
>I have been looking at the drawings posted by Zenith. It would
>appear that to implement these changes one must remove all the
>rivets from the top of the wings and effectively completely
>dis-assemble the center consul and wing spar area in the
>fuselage. While building the plane was interesting, doing it half
>again might be a bit much. It looks like this is a 150-200 hour
>"update" assuming no problems are encountered. This significantly
>dwarfs the cost of any kit.
>
>AMD says this is to be done by a licensed mechanic on their planes.
>That would be at least a $20K update. Am I missing something?
>
>If not, might an engine and radios be worth anything?
>
>--------
>Mark Hubelbank
>N708HU
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
Wow...I have never even seen Sabrina vaguely irritated before when posting on the
site.
I couldn't agree more....especially when the FAA states that the modification kit
is required to "meet a safe condition for operation". I understand the disclaimer/waiver
that we all signed but if built to specs and maintained properly
we should have bought a "safe" aircraft. That is not what the FAA is suggesting
with the original design in the statement above.
PS. You should try the anticipated costs if you have to import the upgrade to
South Africa when paying in Rand and paying local excessive import duties. If
you think you guys have a problem share a thought for us poor buggers!
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271938#271938
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
That being said I am happy that we have something workable on the table to alleviate
the majority of stakeholder's concerns.
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271940#271940
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL down in Arkansas |
The pilot has been identified in news articles as Charles Cummings of
North Aurora, IL. In that case this is probably the accident airplane:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=538CJ
An E-AB with a Jabiru 3300.
On Nov 9, 2009, at 1:00 AM, lwhitlow wrote:
> I think I saw the pic you are referring to Paul
>
> What you described as a radiator looks like my oil cooler on the
> Jabriu 3300. I can see the brackets and what looks like a piece of
> the rubber baffle strip that joins up with the hole in the cowl. I
> just took mine off the other day to work on the cowl.
>
> If it is a Jabriu then this cannot be an AMD plane. They all have
> O-200's
>
> Larry Whitlow
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL down in Arkansas |
The picture from Arkansas looks a lot like the Zodiac hangared at Sky Haven at
my home airport, KARR, Aurora Municipal Airport in Sugar Grove, IL.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271946#271946
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | NO Hull insurance ?????? |
could you get hull insurance before this last accident? or is this
restriction something new? Are other insurance companies doing the same
thing?
Fritz---- do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:45 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith601 wing mod
>
> At the very least they should send us, at no charge, a letter we can keep
> in our cockpit if we get ramp checked telling the FAA:
>
> If built to original plans,
>
> What are the V speeds?
>
> What are the ultimate G forces?
>
> What is the maximum gross weight?
>
> Not that I have any plans on flying it for the rest of 2009--we just
> talked to Avemco, no hull coverage is available, mods or no mods.
>
> Another comment: I just finished helping my parents roof our house, I was
> surprised to see that roofing shingles were used to test the upgraded
> 650XL. They vary in weight and size considerably?"there is no way the
> FAA should accept such testing. We put on 54 bundles of three tab 30
> year shingles on our house. Depending upon which one was more damp than
> the other, the bundle could weigh nearly twice as much.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271926#271926
>
>
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL |
On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 08:49:41AM -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> I agree with your basic logic, but I think you have overestimated the time
> to do the updates. Of course, we haven't yet seen all the updates, so we
> are both a bit premature.
I'm told to expect about 80 hours A&P labor to do the upgrade for my
airplane. AMD is very strongly recommending that the upgrade be done at the
factory for AMD aircraft.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Q&A With Chris Heintz |
Everyone should read (and re-read) the Q&A with Chris Heintz. Seven pages
of questions and pretty straight forward answers. See
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/qa-chris-heintz-1a.pdf
See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com.
See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or
(blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modificati
ons are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.- Thes
e mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to
a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.- At a mini
mal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders?=0A=0A=0A
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Mr. or Ms. Nameless,
Zenith is not GM or Ford. I don't see how Zenith can provide the mod kits for
free. From what I've read, Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with
probably more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free modification kits
would serve to hasten the demise of Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine
it would suck a lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support for
the modifications.
The modifications are a good thing. The mods take a great airplane and make it
that much better.
Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not turn against them.
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271956#271956
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: NO Hull insurance ?????? |
When I was looking around for insurance, Avemco obviously did not want
to provide hull insurance. The price they quoted was very high. Other
companies - SkySmith, Falcon (EAA), etc. - would provide hull insurance
at a much cheaper price, but their liability cost more. I was insuring
a 601HD, though, not an XL.
Bill
fritz wrote:
>
> could you get hull insurance before this last accident? or is this
> restriction something new? Are other insurance companies doing the
> same thing?
>
> Fritz---- do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
> To: <zenith601-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:45 AM
> Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith601 wing mod
>
>
>>
>> At the very least they should send us, at no charge, a letter we can
>> keep in our cockpit if we get ramp checked telling the FAA:
>>
>> If built to original plans,
>>
>> What are the V speeds?
>>
>> What are the ultimate G forces?
>>
>> What is the maximum gross weight?
>>
>> Not that I have any plans on flying it for the rest of 2009--we just
>> talked to Avemco, no hull coverage is available, mods or no mods.
>>
>> Another comment: I just finished helping my parents roof our house,
>> I was surprised to see that roofing shingles were used to test the
>> upgraded 650XL. They vary in weight and size considerably?"there is
>> no way the FAA should accept such testing. We put on 54 bundles of
>> three tab 30 year shingles on our house. Depending upon which one was
>> more damp than the other, the bundle could weigh nearly twice as much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271926#271926
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: NO Hull insurance ?????? |
I just spoke to my insurance agent and things are not at all clear. I have it insured
through the EAA using the Falcon Insurance agency. The underwriter is Global
Aerospace.
It seems they are taking a very wait and see attitude here. Depending on the finding
of the NTSB on this last crash, the insurance could be anywhere from a bit
more expensive (already double what a Grumman AA-1 would be) to impossible
to get. We probably won't know for 3-6 months.
Anyone want to buy an engine and radios with a big metal bracket attached?
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271958#271958
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith601 wing mod |
I for one do NOT think the upgrade should be free. Like Chris H I don't
think there is an underlying common cause to the accidents and I don't think
ZAC is at fault.
But on a more practical note the cost of the materials in the kits will be
minimal compared to the labor of doing the work. And (in the great ZAC
tradition) you can scratch-build the needed parts.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:41 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith601 wing mod
Update Package...
PRICING?
It should be free!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271912#271912
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL |
I figure one takes any personal estimate and double it to get to reality. That
is how I got 200 hours.
Even assuming we do all this. will anyone write insurance for it after? That is
not at all clear.
Anyone want an engine, and radios with a big metal bracket attached?
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271961#271961
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: The real work of the update on the CH601XL |
Hi Mark,
As some other posters have said, I consider the current situation as
a step forward. Yes, there are some expenses to overcome. When you
are done, I expect the XL/650 to be easily insurable and after some
time easy to sell for a good price.
This all depends on the accident experience we have in the
future. If the accidents stop (particularly the structural failures)
then the Zodiac will gain the reputation it deserves. Indeed it will
probable become a "Folk Hero" as the Bonanza and Swift have. It is
ideal in many ways, and not the first leading edge airplane to
experience accident problems. Consider the history of the V-Tail
Bonanza, Yankee, Swift, Electra, and probably many others. Once the
problems are fixed the planes become popular because they are leading
edge designs. Until the accident history proves the problems have
been fixed they will have little value in the marketplace.
Insurance companies are in the business of getting paid for taking
risks. Even from the worst possible perspective, the accident rate
on the Zodiacs has been low. If the fleet of flyable planes is 1,000
or so than it is well under 1 percent of the planes that have been
involved in accidents. That is not very scary to an insurance
company - just an excuse for high premiums.
I am hopeful that the problems will soon be a thing of the past.
Paul
XL ready to order update kit.
At 11:55 AM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
>Even assuming we do all this. will anyone write insurance for it
>after? That is not at all clear.
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What
is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give
rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the
airplane will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver
that level of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I
cannot imagine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less.
Sure I could scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy
to pay Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with
the mod package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders
incorporate the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new
spar cap replaced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my
first solid rivet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders.
With practice, I think I could learn.
I agree with Ken and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's
means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep
their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roger
will be there when I have a question.
I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and
producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open
publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe.
That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to
reestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in
particular. Bravo Zenair!
Terry
At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:
>After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the
>modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality
>reasons. These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would
>be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and
>labor. At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders?
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
$1000.00?!?!?!- Let me bend over now.- I'm thinking more like a couple
hundred at most.
Bill Pagan
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net> wrote:
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What
is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give
rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the airplan
e will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver that leve
l of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I cannot i
magine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less. Sure I c
ould scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy to pay
Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with the mod
package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders incorporat
e the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new spar cap repl
aced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid ri
vet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice,
I think I could learn.
I agree with Ken and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's
means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep
their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roge
r will be there when I have a question.
I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and
producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open
publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe.
That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to r
eestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in part
icular. Bravo Zenair!
Terry
At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:
After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modificati
ons are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.- Thes
e mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to
a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.- At a mini
mal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders?
Terry Phillips- ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons ar
e done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
=0A=0A=0A
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Terry,
I don't think the mod kit will be anywhere near $1000.00. I get the feeling that
Zenith will provide these kits for $500 or less. Either way, I agree that
buying the kit from Zenith is the easiest way to go.
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271970#271970
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
There is no way possible that the price of this kit, if there is one,
should be anything like $1000. ZAC can supply a full upgrade kit from
the XL601 to the CH650 for less than $200, this included a full set of
new drawings, a complete rudder kit, new nose leg and several other
items. If you can scratch build the parts for less than $200 don't you
think ZAC can build them for less than that? Surely there has been
enough speculation, let's all have some patience and wait and see what
they offer. Suggesting the kit could cost $1000 is ridiculous and not at
all helpful.
Kind regards,
Greg Cox
Sydney, Australia
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Phillips
Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue.
What is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I
can give rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that
the airplane will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will
deliver that level of performance. When I look at the parts involved in
dwgs 1-3, I cannot imagine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so,
probably less. Sure I could scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or
so, but I am happy to pay Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will
be a few issues with the mod package, but those will be ironed out as
more and more builders incorporate the mods. I for one, would like to
see the bolts in the new spar cap replaced with solid rivets.
Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid rivet, but I suspect
that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice, I think I could
learn.
I agree with Ken and others that providing free mod kits is beyond
Zenair's means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the
package, keep their work force intact and the company in business, so
that Caleb or Roger will be there when I have a question.
I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650
and producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see
the open publication of the DER report on the load tests for the
modified airframe. That is just the kind of customer commitment that I
believe is needed to reestablish the Zenair brand in general and the
601XL/650 reputation in particular. Bravo Zenair!
Terry
At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:
After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the
modifications are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality
reasons. These mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would
be equivalent to a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and
labor. At a minimal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit
builders?
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re:Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Sure,- keep American jobs...- and-a Great Aircraft Factory...-
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying 701 912S- 272 happy hrs
(My brother Larry) ready for a long weekend-flyin near Puerto Vallarta-th
is Friday (Monday a local holiday).
Building 601 XL Jab 3300- fuselage- almost ready (just need a little wo
rk in the center spars:-).--- Working on wings (not closed yet), happ
y and ready to order the Upgrade kit...-
(Is more dificult and expensive to-learn to speak mandarin :-)
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, annken100 <annken100@aol.com> wrote:
From: annken100 <annken100@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
Mr. or Ms. Nameless,
Zenith is not GM or Ford.- I don't see how Zenith can provide the mod kit
s for free. From what I've read, Zenith already has multiple law suits pend
ing with probably more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free mod
ification kits would serve to hasten the demise of Zenith. If you think it
sucks now, I imagine it would suck a lot more if Zenith weren't around to p
rovide support for the modifications.
The modifications are a good thing.- The mods take a great airplane and m
ake it that much better.
Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not turn against the
m.
Ken Pavlou
--------
601 XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271956#271956
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | load test question |
If I put a 6 g load on a 1320 lb airplane I would expect to see 7920 lbs or 3600
kg for the ultimate test weight - not the 2446 kg total listed in the report.
Can anyone explain?
Ted Haller AMD 601XL N620TH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271977#271977
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: load test question |
You don't have to account for any of the weight that is in the wing or is distributed
within the wing, like the fuel.
Jim Machin
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, hallert <hallert@verizon.net> wrote:
> From: hallert <hallert@verizon.net>
> Subject: Zenith601-List: load test question
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 2:29 PM
> --> Zenith601-List message posted
> by: "hallert" <hallert@verizon.net>
>
> If I put a 6 g load on a 1320 lb airplane I would expect to
> see 7920 lbs or 3600 kg for the ultimate test weight - not
> the 2446 kg total listed in the report. Can anyone explain?
>
> Ted Haller AMD 601XL N620TH
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271977#271977
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser. Click on
> out more about
> Gifts provided
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.homebuilthelp.com
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
>
>
>
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: load test question |
The wings themselves have a certain amount of weight. The weight of
the wings counted is in addition to the weight of the external load
stacked on the wing for load calculations.
Also, the wing root structure supports the weight of the fuselage
only, the weight of the wings themselves and fuel carried in the wings
is not lifted by the wing root structure. This fact is also accounted
for in the load testing and reduces the total weight needed for the
test.
>
> If I put a 6 g load on a 1320 lb airplane I would expect to see 7920
> lbs or 3600 kg for the ultimate test weight - not the 2446 kg total
> listed in the report. Can anyone explain?
>
> Ted Haller AMD 601XL N620TH
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Mr. Ken Pavlou,=0A-=0AAny Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Fo
rd.- Zenith do produce products some of which are good while others are q
uestionable.- Like any other business entities, companies producing good
products thrive while companies producing questionable products perish.-
While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it objectionable for any compan
y to further ask its customer to cough $$$- to correct something that may
be defective.- Zenith called the modifications as "upgrades" but upgrade
s are usually optional and not necessary for intended safe operations.- I
f the so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe op
erations, then I would wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a premiu
m; -but if the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws,-
then designer/manufacturer should absorb the costs.=0A=0A=0A=0A____________
____________________=0AFrom: annken100 <annken100@aol.com>=0ATo: zenith601-
list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, November 9, 2009 1:32:02 PM=0ASubject: Zeni
th601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?=0A=0A--> Zenith601-Lis
t message posted by: "annken100" <annken100@aol.com>=0A=0AMr. or Ms. Namele
ss,=0A=0AZenith is not GM or Ford.- I don't see how Zenith can provide th
e mod kits for free. From what I've read, Zenith already has multiple law s
uits pending with probably more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding
free modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of Zenith. If you
think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a lot more if Zenith weren't ar
ound to provide support for the modifications.=0A=0AThe modifications are a
good thing.- The mods take a great airplane and make it that much better
.=0A=0ANow, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not turn agai
nst them.=0A=0AKen Pavlou=0A=0A--------=0A601 XL / Corvair=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARe
ad this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
=========================0A
======0A=0A=0A
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
If Zenith makes them available, I will purchase from them.
They've got to be hanging on by a thread, financially, and they need our support.
We builders are much better off if they remain in business.
We all gave a lot of thought into which aircraft to buy or build. At one point
in time every one of us here considered the Zodiac to be the best aircraft for
our needs. With these upgrades, I feel that the Zodiac can again be that aircraft.
The folks who really stand to lose out are the guys just starting out on the new
750's. They don't have an iron in this fire at all, yet if Zenith goes under
the 750 builders will lose out too.
Patrick
N63PZ
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271993#271993
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
But this shows one of Zenith's strengths when compared to the other major
manufactures (Vans, Rans, etc): except for the 801 the plans are real,
complete plans - not assembly instructions. Yes it would be bad, painful and
undeserved if Zenith folded. But as the many scratch builders demonstrate if
all you have are the plans you can build (or finish) your plane.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 5:35 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
If Zenith makes them available, I will purchase from them.
They've got to be hanging on by a thread, financially, and they need our
support. We builders are much better off if they remain in business.
We all gave a lot of thought into which aircraft to buy or build. At one
point in time every one of us here considered the Zodiac to be the best
aircraft for our needs. With these upgrades, I feel that the Zodiac can
again be that aircraft.
The folks who really stand to lose out are the guys just starting out on the
new 750's. They don't have an iron in this fire at all, yet if Zenith goes
under the 750 builders will lose out too.
Patrick
N63PZ
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271993#271993
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade |
Anybody thinking about installing Wing Lockers when they do their upgrades...?
Pro's/Con's...?
Patrick
N63PZ
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271997#271997
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Mr. Smith,
I agree with your comment to a certain degree, but I don't think it
applies in this case.
Zenith is not the manufacturer of kit built planes, the builder
is. Zenith manufactures parts for kits and also distributes
documents such as drawings and assembly instructions. In my
experience they have always stood behind any parts that had problems
or were shipped in error (e.g. two lefts and no rights when a left
and right are needed). That is the extent of their responsibility
both in my opinion and in the clear language of the contracts each of
us signed with them.
Zenith never guaranteed the design was good. On the other hand they
have expended a great deal of effort and money in an attempt to
improve the design to deal with the accidents and government
actions. I expect them to eat those costs and only to charge their
customers, us, for additional materials and labor they perform to
produce the parts. If they want to charge for the design prints and
instructions I will pay their fee, but I would be very surprised if
they chose to do that. It would be inconsistent with their past behavior.
I am happy to pay for the needed parts to upgrade my airplane to the
new design level. I would do this whether there were accidents
involved or not. My goal is to have the best and safest plane I can,
and the price of additional parts is a small one in my opinion. The
labor to tear down my plane and install the parts is a much greater
price for me to pay, but that is all part of the formula of choosing
to build a plane from a kit.
I am much less happy to pay outrageous taxes to my state for the cost
of my plane and registration and excise taxes, etc. However, I pay
those too. It is all part of the cost of airplane ownership.
Paul
XL ready to order upgrade parts.
At 03:40 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
>Mr. Ken Pavlou,
>
>Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Ford. Zenith do
>produce products some of which are good while others are
>questionable. Like any other business entities, companies producing
>good products thrive while companies producing questionable products
>perish. While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it
>objectionable for any company to further ask its customer to cough
>$$$ to correct something that may be defective. Zenith called the
>modifications as "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and
>not necessary for intended safe operations. If the so-called Zenith
>Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe operations, then I
>would wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a premium; but if
>the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws, then
>designer/manufacturer should absorb the costs.
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade |
I am actually thinking about adding the wing lockers now that I have to
tear the wings apart. Still have not decided fully.
Larry Husky
Madras, Oregon
In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:56:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
pwhoyt@yahoo.com writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
Anybody thinking about installing Wing Lockers when they do their
upgrades...?
Pro's/Con's...?
Patrick
N63PZ
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271997#271997
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
I have owned a Mooney for 20 years and I don't remember a single instance of them
offering to pay for a required AD, even when there was an unsafe condition
due to a design issue. Lycoming and Hartzell too.
Jim Machin
601 XL
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:40 PM
> Mr. Ken Pavlou,
>
> Any Joe off the street can tell
> Zenith is not GM/Ford. Zenith do produce products some
> of which are good while others are questionable. Like
> any other business entities, companies producing good
> products thrive while companies producing questionable
> products perish. While I like to see Zenith flourish,
> I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its
> customer to cough $$$ to correct something that may be
> defective. Zenith called the modifications as
> "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and
> not necessary for intended safe operations. If the
> so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly
> unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly
> agree that the upgrade carry a premium; but if the
> "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design
> flaws,then designer/manufacturer should absorb the
> costs.
>
>
>
>
> From:
> annken100 <annken100@aol.com>
> To:
> zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon,
> November 9, 2009 1:32:02 PM
> Subject:
> Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
>
> "annken100" <annken100@aol.com>
>
> Mr. or Ms. Nameless,
>
> Zenith is not GM or Ford. I don't see how Zenith
> can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read,
> Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably
> more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free
> modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of
> Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a
> lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support
> for the modifications.
>
> The modifications are a good thing. The mods take a
> great airplane and make it that much better.
>
> Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not
> turn against them.
>
> Ken Pavlou
>
> --------
> 601 XL / Corvair
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2ww.aeroelectric.com/"
> er's Bookstore wwtp://www.homebuilthelp.com/"
> target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
> _bsp;
> =======================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> provided
>
>
Message 42
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade |
If anyone is thinking about doing this, be aware that the 650 lockers
are a bit different than the 601 and, in my opinion, a bit better.
Not a big deal, but worth cosidering
Ron
(Wings, not closed)
On Nov 9, 2009, at 7:55 PM, PatrickW wrote:
>
> Anybody thinking about installing Wing Lockers when they do their
> upgrades...?
>
> Pro's/Con's...?
>
> Patrick
> N63PZ
>
> --------
> Patrick
> XL/650/Corvair
> N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271997#271997
>
>
Message 43
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade |
rsteele(at)rjsit.com wrote:
> be aware that the 650 lockers are a bit different than the 601 and, in my opinion,
a bit better.
How are they different?
BTW - congrats to you guys who had the foresight to not close your wings. I'd
be further along in my build if I wasn't so far along....
- Pat
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272011#272011
Message 44
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Retrofitting Wing Lockers with the Upgrade |
Without looking at the plans: the "flanges" around the sides and back
are wider on the 650, stiffing on the cover is a bit different, and
the biggy, the hinge is mounted with the pin down rather than with the
pin up. Shimming the hinge to the top skin different. I think maybe
the rear bulkhead is slightly different. Sorry, don't have the plans
at hand.
Ron
On Nov 9, 2009, at 9:01 PM, PatrickW wrote:
>
>
> rsteele(at)rjsit.com wrote:
>> be aware that the 650 lockers are a bit different than the 601 and,
>> in my opinion, a bit better.
>
> How are they different?
>
> BTW - congrats to you guys who had the foresight to not close your
> wings. I'd be further along in my build if I wasn't so far along....
>
>
> - Pat
>
> --------
> Patrick
> XL/650/Corvair
> N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272011#272011
>
>
Message 45
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Bill....- Please!- Lets NOT speculate...- Thats for the girls at the
laundry shop :-)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Bill Pagan <pdn8r@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
$1000.00?!?!?!- Let me bend over now.- I'm thinking more like a couple
hundred at most.
Bill Pagan
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net> wrote:
From: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
I am a home builder, so the labor costs for the mods are not an issue. What
is critical to me is that I want to build an airplane in which I can give
rides to my friends and relatives without the nagging fear that the airplan
e will self destruct. I believe that the mod package will deliver that leve
l of performance. When I look at the parts involved in dwgs 1-3, I cannot i
magine a cost from Zenair of more than $1000 or so, probably less. Sure I c
ould scratch build the parts for perhaps $200 or so, but I am happy to pay
Zenair to make the parts. I believe there will be a few issues with the mod
package, but those will be ironed out as more and more builders incorporat
e the mods. I for one, would like to see the bolts in the new spar cap repl
aced with solid rivets. Admittedly, I've yet to drill out my first solid ri
vet, but I suspect that it is a common job for RV builders. With practice,
I think I could learn.
I agree with Ken and others that providing free mod kits is beyond Zenair's
means at this critical juncture. I'd rather pay them for the package, keep
their work force intact and the company in business, so that Caleb or Roge
r will be there when I have a question.
I want to commend Zenair for addressing the problems with the 601XL/650 and
producing a comprehensive solution. I was especially happy to see the open
publication of the DER report on the load tests for the modified airframe.
That is just the kind of customer commitment that I believe is needed to r
eestablish the Zenair brand in general and the 601XL/650 reputation in part
icular. Bravo Zenair!
Terry
At 10:22 AM 11/9/2009 -0800, you wrote:
After reading Heintz's Q&A and FAA SAIB I got the sense that the modificati
ons are necessary if not mandatory for safety and legality reasons.- Thes
e mods to the Zodiac if compared to automotive world would be equivalent to
a recall which cost customers ZERO dollar in parts and labor.- At a mini
mal Zenith should supply the mod kit for free to kit builders?
Terry Phillips- ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons ar
e done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith6
01-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
=0A=0A=0A
Message 46
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
Perfect example- Jim,- I think the same, but was not able to find the c
orrect words.
-
Gary Gower.
601XL- will upgrade to have fun building and enjoy better the plane.
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, J.T. Machin <stormyflight@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: J.T. Machin <stormyflight@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
>
I have owned a Mooney for 20 years and I don't remember a single instance o
f them offering to pay for a required AD, even when there was an unsafe con
dition due to a design issue.- Lycoming and Hartzell too.
Jim Machin
601 XL
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:40 PM
> Mr. Ken Pavlou,
> -
> Any Joe off the street can tell
> Zenith is not GM/Ford.- Zenith do produce products some
> of which are good while others are questionable.- Like
> any other business entities, companies producing good
> products thrive while companies producing questionable
> products perish.- While I like to see Zenith flourish,
> I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its
> customer to cough $$$- to correct something that may be
> defective.- Zenith called the modifications as
> "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional and
> not necessary for intended safe operations.- If the
> so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly
> unnecessary for safe operations, then I would wholeheartedly
> agree that the upgrade carry a premium; -but if the
> "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design
> flaws,-then designer/manufacturer should absorb the
> costs.
>
>
>
>
> From:
> annken100 <annken100@aol.com>
> To:
> zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon,
> November 9, 2009 1:32:02 PM
> Subject:
> Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
>
> "annken100" <annken100@aol.com>
>
> Mr. or Ms. Nameless,
>
> Zenith is not GM or Ford.- I don't see how Zenith
> can provide the mod kits for free. From what I've read,
> Zenith already has multiple law suits pending with probably
> more waiting. An onslaught of builders demanding free
> modification kits would serve to hasten the demise of
> Zenith. If you think it sucks now, I imagine it would suck a
> lot more if Zenith weren't around to provide support
>- for the modifications.
>
> The modifications are a good thing.- The mods take a
> great airplane and make it that much better.
>
> Now, more than ever, is the time to support Zenith and not
> turn against them.
>
> Ken Pavlou
>
> --------
> 601 XL / Corvair
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2ww.aeroelectric.com/"
> er's Bookstore wwtp://www.homebuilthelp.com/"
> target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
> _bsp; - - - - - - -
> - - - ====================
===
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>- - ---
>
>
> provided
>
>
- - -
le, List Admin.
//mail.yahoo.com
Message 47
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
I don't know about your kit but my center spar and wing spars were complete
ly built by Zenith.- All I had to do was to mount the center spar and att
ach some parts to the wing spars.- Now Zenith wanted me to remove those p
arts so that I could "fix" the spars that Zenith built.- Something-was
wrong with that picture!- I couldn't imagine those with-Zenith quick bu
ilt-kit would feel.- We all had to sign the contract to make purchases
with Zenith but that would not completely release Zenith from liability as
we shall see in pending and upcoming lawsuits.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________
__________________=0AFrom: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>=0ATo: zenith601-list@
matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, November 9, 2009 6:55:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenit
h601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?=0A=0A--> Zenith601-List
message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>=0A=0AMr. Smith,=0A=0AI agree
with your comment to a certain degree, but I don't think it applies in thi
s case.=0A=0AZenith is not the manufacturer of kit built planes, the builde
r is.- Zenith manufactures parts for kits and also distributes documents
such as drawings and assembly instructions.- In my experience they have a
lways stood behind any parts that had problems or were shipped in error (e.
g. two lefts and no rights when a left and right are needed).- That is th
e extent of their responsibility both in my opinion and in the clear langua
ge of the contracts each of us signed with them.=0A=0AZenith never guarante
ed the design was good.- On the other hand they have expended a great dea
l of effort and money in an attempt to improve the design to deal with the
accidents and government actions.- I expect them to eat those costs and o
nly to charge their customers, us, for additional materials and labor they
perform to produce the parts.- If they want to charge for the design prin
ts and instructions I will pay their fee, but I would be very surprised if
they chose to do that.- It would be inconsistent with their past behavior
.=0A=0AI am happy to pay for the needed parts to upgrade my airplane to the
new design level.- I would do this whether there were accidents involved
or not.- My goal is to have the best and safest plane I can, and the pri
ce of additional parts is a small one in my opinion.- The labor to tear d
own my plane and install the parts is a much greater price for me to pay, b
ut that is all part of the formula of choosing to build a plane from a kit.
=0A=0AI am much less happy to pay outrageous taxes to my state for the cost
of my plane and registration and excise taxes, etc.- However, I pay thos
e too.- It is all part of the cost of airplane ownership.=0A=0APaul=0AXL
ready to order upgrade parts.=0A=0AAt 03:40 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:=0A=0A>
Mr. Ken Pavlou,=0A> =0A> Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/
Ford.- Zenith do produce products some of which are good while others are
questionable.- Like any other business entities, companies producing goo
d products thrive while companies producing questionable products perish.
- While I like to see Zenith flourish, I find it objectionable for any co
mpany to further ask its customer to cough $$$- to correct something that
may be defective.- Zenith called the modifications as "upgrades" but upg
rades are usually optional and not necessary for intended safe operations.
- If the so-called Zenith Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for sa
fe operations, then I would wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a p
remium;- but if the "upgrades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaw
==============0A=0A=0A
Message 48
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
If in any case we sadly damage a part (or section) of-our Zenith-airpla
ne.
We can make the parts to rebuilt it from scratch OR decide to buy some OR a
ll the parts from ZAC, even years later...-- There are several examples
world wide, at least one locally... And his plane is now flying and he is
a happy pilot once more.
-
Have you ever think about any other kit airplane owner?--1,000.00's of
dollars lost in the write off -- just for a "simple"-hard landing or
-a slow nose gear folding with roll over...
(I got a photo of one in a *.pps)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Happy ZAC airplanes owner...
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
>
But this shows one of Zenith's strengths when compared to the other major
manufactures (Vans, Rans, etc): except for the 801 the plans are real,
complete plans - not assembly instructions. Yes it would be bad, painful an
d
undeserved if Zenith folded. But as the many scratch builders demonstrate i
f
all you have are the plans you can build (or finish) your plane.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 5:35 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
If Zenith makes them available, I will purchase from them.
They've got to be hanging on by a thread, financially, and they need our
support.- We builders are much better off if they remain in business.
We all gave a lot of thought into which aircraft to buy or build.- At one
point in time every one of us here considered the Zodiac to be the best
aircraft for our needs.- With these upgrades, I feel that the Zodiac can
again be that aircraft.
The folks who really stand to lose out are the guys just starting out on th
e
new 750's.- They don't have an iron in this fire at all, yet if Zenith go
es
under the 750 builders will lose out too.
Patrick
N63PZ
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271993#271993
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 49
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free? |
One extra comment to Paul's post...- I fly in mountain area, lots of turb
ulence, now in the 701,- so I will happy pay for the 601 XL upgrades, jus
t for the extra peace of mind when I will finaly enjoy it...-
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Fun is...- Flying at 8,500 ft ASL with a canyon below and a mountain on t
he side.
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Should the Modification Kit Be Free?
Mr. Smith,
I agree with your comment to a certain degree, but I don't think it applies
in this case.
Zenith is not the manufacturer of kit built planes, the builder is.- Zeni
th manufactures parts for kits and also distributes documents such as drawi
ngs and assembly instructions.- In my experience they have always stood b
ehind any parts that had problems or were shipped in error (e.g. two lefts
and no rights when a left and right are needed).- That is the extent of t
heir responsibility both in my opinion and in the clear language of the con
tracts each of us signed with them.
Zenith never guaranteed the design was good.- On the other hand they have
expended a great deal of effort and money in an attempt to improve the des
ign to deal with the accidents and government actions.- I expect them to
eat those costs and only to charge their customers, us, for additional mate
rials and labor they perform to produce the parts.- If they want to charg
e for the design prints and instructions I will pay their fee, but I would
be very surprised if they chose to do that.- It would be inconsistent wit
h their past behavior.
I am happy to pay for the needed parts to upgrade my airplane to the new de
sign level.- I would do this whether there were accidents involved or not
.- My goal is to have the best and safest plane I can, and the price of a
dditional parts is a small one in my opinion.- The labor to tear down my
plane and install the parts is a much greater price for me to pay, but that
is all part of the formula of choosing to build a plane from a kit.
I am much less happy to pay outrageous taxes to my state for the cost of my
plane and registration and excise taxes, etc.- However, I pay those too.
- It is all part of the cost of airplane ownership.
Paul
XL ready to order upgrade parts.
At 03:40 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
> Mr. Ken Pavlou,
>
> Any Joe off the street can tell Zenith is not GM/Ford.- Zenith do produ
ce products some of which are good while others are questionable.- Like a
ny other business entities, companies producing good products thrive while
companies producing questionable products perish.- While I like to see Ze
nith flourish, I find it objectionable for any company to further ask its c
ustomer to cough $$$- to correct something that may be defective.- Zeni
th called the modifications as "upgrades" but upgrades are usually optional
and not necessary for intended safe operations.- If the so-called Zenith
Zodiac "upgrades" were truly unnecessary for safe operations, then I would
wholeheartedly agree that the upgrade carry a premium;- but if the "upgr
ades" were necessary to fix inherent design flaws, then designer/manufactur
er should absorb the costs.
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|