Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:01 AM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (John Bolding)
2. 03:48 AM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Terry Turnquist)
3. 10:19 AM - Re: I don't understand... (Sabrina)
4. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Gary Gower)
5. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Gary Gower)
6. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Gary Gower)
7. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (J.T. Machin)
8. 01:14 PM - Re: I don't understand... (Sabrina)
9. 01:23 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Greg Cox)
10. 03:14 PM - Re: Push Rods (Thruster87)
11. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... ()
12. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Gary Gower)
13. 08:01 PM - Push/Pull tubes (New Design) (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
The one that pops to mind instantly is the rod bolts on the engine
LO&SLO John
----- Original Message -----
> If a bolt is properly torqued and has some locking feature it is just as
> reliable as a rivet. Our aircraft has hundreds of non serviceable bolts,
> never been a problem. Certified aircraft as well.
>
> Jim Machin
> 601xl Quick build, 0-200 >
>
> >
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
One answer may be that the "upgrades" are designed to be builder manageable. To
use AN rivets would require the dismantling of the entire wing and not everyone
has the equipment or the ability to set the size of solid rivets that would
be required to attach the 1/8" extruded angle through the upper spar cap.
do not archive
Terry
601XL Plans
________________________________
From: John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 4:56:22 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
The one that pops to mind instantly is the rod bolts on the engine
LO&SLO John
----- Original Message -----
> If a bolt is properly torqued and has some locking feature it is just as reliable
as a rivet. Our aircraft has hundreds of non serviceable bolts, never been
a problem. Certified aircraft as well.
>
> Jim Machin
> 601xl Quick build, 0-200 >
>
> >
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Hello Jim!
I am talking about the outboard AN3 spar cap hardware, not the two AN4 spar cap
bolts at the root.
I have always been told that AN3 bolts are the most abused bolt in the industry.
They are often over-torqued loosing their integrity without any indication.
So too the AN4 has at least double, if not 3 times the torque rating with a
much larger (20 v 5) margin for error.
But their weight adds up really quickly.
(Our rod bolts are cotter keyed in our 0-200As)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276196#276196
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Just my point of view...---
-
In all my years of flying ultralights and experimentals- (plus a few Cess
nas once in a while),- I-dont- know yet a pilot/builder that will onl
y fly his airplane since he finished the building process.
-
During the year. lots of the Saturdays (Sundays?), during the rain season h
ere (grass airfield wet) and -most of the winter time, we spend lots of t
ime repairing, upgradiing, detailing, mantaining, etc- our airplanes.-
Some of this mantainance or repairs could take lots of hours (like the Zac
Upgrade).-- The airplane has to be always in Perfect Shape. This is par
t of the fun, not a reason to complain.
-
-Is like our cars,- I dont know wht but only the wife's car needs just
gasoline to run...-:-)-
-:-)- :-)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
601XL- JAB 3300- waiting for the Upgrade Kit.
Owning a salt water (big) boat sure-needs lots of cleaning and mantainanc
e...- everytime it-used "for fun".- Sure-Not for me. :-)
-
--
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, mhubel <mhubel@nemon.com> wrote:
From: mhubel <mhubel@nemon.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
While I can see your point, to some degree I can understand. Some of us dec
ided to build a plane once with no intention of ever doing it again. It was
fun once. Then it was time to fly it. This "upgrade" is a very significant
fraction of the original build time.
I had doubts myself. Had it not been for the two others who have offered to
help do the modifications, my enthusiasm to do this would be very low.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276087#276087
le, List Admin.
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Hello Sabrina,
-
Not to directly desagree with you,- but a wodden and rag airplane has AN
bolts in the wing spars, they get recovered several times (10 or 20 years)
before most of the bolts are changed.-- Sure this not count the "struct
ural" bolts that hold the wings, (same as our alu planes)- but the bolts
that hold the metal-fittings-that-hold-the struts to the spars, mai
n supports plates, etc...
-
Why will be diferent in our airplanes?--
Can we aply some clear =E8poxy barnish over the exposed bolt-and nut area
, -so they will prevent corrosion, but still see the security "red paint
dot"? Is it needed?
-
I am sure that lots of aluminum (certified) aircraft have several AN bolts
inside the wings...- I am sure non of them change all the bolts in a year
ly basis...
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Just thinking a lot about the upgrade comments from all of us...
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
If your XL winged craft is parked outside, the upgrade could actually degra
de the strength of the main spar over time since Zenith has moved back towa
rd main spar AN bolts that cannot be inspected and re-torqued. I don't know
if it would take months or more than a year, but at some point while I am
in college I would be in worse shape than I am now.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276092#276092
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/an_762.jpg
le, List Admin.
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
This-was my point in my last mail I answered to Sabrina...- Only the "s
tructural" bolts need to be serviced as a mantainance basis.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Hope my English was better...
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, J.T. Machin <stormyflight@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: J.T. Machin <stormyflight@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
>
I guess I don't understand.
If a bolt is properly torqued and has some locking feature it is just as re
liable as a rivet. Our aircraft has hundreds of non serviceable bolts, neve
r been a problem.- Certified aircraft as well.
Jim Machin
601xl Quick build, 0-200
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Ronald Steele <rsteele@rjsit.com> wrote:
> From: Ronald Steele <rsteele@rjsit.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 7:46 PM
> --> Zenith601-List message posted
> by: Ronald Steele <rsteele@rjsit.com>
>
> I certainly understand "no solid rivets" comment.- I
> have every intention to rivet mine, but I'll be buying a
> bunch of cheap aluminum at Home Depot and a bunch of extra
> rivets to practice with.- Fortunately my airport is
> "infested" with RV builders, so I have some more experienced
> people around.
> I just can't see having the inspection headache and
> weight.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> <psm@att.net>
> >
> > As I understand it this coin has two bad sides . . .
> >
> > We discussed this situation at my last EAA chapter
> meeting.- One member (who happens to be a supervisor at
> Boeing) mentioned a potential problem with aircraft
> rivets.- His point was that if the rivets are not
> properly set they may not compress the parts they are
> supposed to hold together.- This is not an issue
> (according to him) with bolts since the torque applied is
> directly reflected in the joint.
> >
> > I didn't really understand his comments, but the
> bottom line is there are potential problems with bolts or
> rivets - especially rivets set by builders who may have
> selected the Zodiac design because it didn't require setting
> any hard rivets.
> >
> > Paul
> > XL upgrade kit on order
> >
> >
> > At 06:52 PM 12/3/2009, you wrote:
> >> the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of
> the main spar over time since Zenith has moved back toward
> main spar AN bolts that cannot be inspected and re-torqued.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser.- Click on
> out more about
> Gifts provided
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.homebuilthelp.com
> - - - - - - - -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> Email Forum -
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> ---- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
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>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Hi Sabrina,
How are you doing?
You are right about the AN3's being delicate little things hence my comment about
being properly torqued. But it is not hard hard to do if you have the right
torque wrench and believe what it is telling you. Also, hole quality is critical
since the bolts don't squish to fill the hole. My comment was just saying
that if done right, it works just as well as a rivet and there should be no
tendency to come loose (no re-torquing required). There are also some non-driven
rivets that we use a lot called Hyloks which are set using wrenches. A little
pricey at about $5 each, but would definitely do the job.
Jim
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
> From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
> Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:16 AM
> --> Zenith601-List message posted
> by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
>
> Hello Jim!
>
> I am talking about the outboard AN3 spar cap hardware, not
> the two AN4 spar cap bolts at the root.
>
> I have always been told that AN3 bolts are the most abused
> bolt in the industry. They are often over-torqued
> loosing their integrity without any indication. So too
> the AN4 has at least double, if not 3 times the torque
> rating with a much larger (20 v 5) margin for
> error.
>
> But their weight adds up really quickly.
>
> (Our rod bolts are cotter keyed in our 0-200As)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276196#276196
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser. Click on
> out more about
> Gifts provided
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.homebuilthelp.com
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Hey Jim, doing just fine... I will be on my way to Miami for a cruise in two weeks
time... :O)
Gary... torquing an AN3 bolt within its 5 in pound range is hard when you are
retofitting a 1/8" angle to a couple 1/4" doublers. The tendancy is to overtorque
because it feels like you are still bringing the materials into contact.
Even worse, the nylo nut can give you a couple inch pounds of drag, depending
upon the temperature. So too, I have not found a torque wrench yet that appears
accurate to me at that low of a torque range. Even Aircraft Spruces' $200
dial type is only +/-2% accurate and that is NOT 2% of your value but 4% of
its range. With wood, the wood should compress long before the AN3 will be damaged.
As Jim points out, it is an art to be learned.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276222#276222
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Gary,
Have you also noticed that they only need gas when we get in to drive the
dammed things, how do they get them to run so long on the low fuel light?
Regards,
Greg Cox
Zenith Zodiac CH650, VH-ZDC
Sydney, Australia (Cecil Hills)
Web - www.mykitlog.com/aussiech650
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Saturday, 5 December 2009 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
Just my point of view...
In all my years of flying ultralights and experimentals (plus a few Cessnas
once in a while), I dont know yet a pilot/builder that will only fly his
airplane since he finished the building process.
During the year. lots of the Saturdays (Sundays?), during the rain season
here (grass airfield wet) and most of the winter time, we spend lots of
time repairing, upgradiing, detailing, mantaining, etc our airplanes.
Some of this mantainance or repairs could take lots of hours (like the Zac
Upgrade). The airplane has to be always in Perfect Shape. This is part of
the fun, not a reason to complain.
Is like our cars, I dont know wht but only the wife's car needs just
gasoline to run... :-)
:-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
601XL JAB 3300 waiting for the Upgrade Kit.
Owning a salt water (big) boat sure needs lots of cleaning and
mantainance... everytime it used "for fun". Sure Not for me. :-)
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, mhubel <mhubel@nemon.com> wrote:
From: mhubel <mhubel@nemon.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
<http://us.mc520.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mhubel@nemon.com> >
While I can see your point, to some degree I can understand. Some of us
decided to build a plane once with no intention of ever doing it again. It
was fun once. Then it was time to fly it. This "upgrade" is a very
significant fraction of the original build time.
I had doubts myself. Had it not been for the two others who have offered to
help do the modifications, my enthusiasm to do this would be very low.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276087#27608
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276087#276087> * The
Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com= --> http://www.bsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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Message 10
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[quote="BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net"]List
I am thinking of changing the aileron cables to push rods while I have the wings
open for the "upgrades"
If anyone has photos, drawings, part numbers or tubing sizes I would appreciate
any info. Please e-mail me off list.
I have removed the ailerons primarily to keep from flying it and found no damage
or loose rivets.
Does anyone know if the upgrade kits are shipping for the E-AB builders?
Bobby
Hobbs stopped at 96 hrs.
> [b]
I put push pull rods in mine using 1 1/4" x 0.058" 6061-T6 and I machined end
fittings [held on by two AN3 bolts] to take the same steel threaded rod and eye
as the Zenith supplied in the kit.Cheers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276234#276234
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Everybody grab your desktop and hold on tight!! I agree with Paul
M. After properly torqueing the bolt, if you still have doubts, a
generous dab of Proseal at the head-to-spar points, and some more on
the bolt threads, will hold that bolt's torque long after you and I
(particularly I) are long gone. I think you could do the same thing with
JB Weld. If it's tough enough to thread, it certainly would hold for the
life of the plane. I would trust a steel AN bolt a lot more than my
feeble attempt to properly set a large rivet, which, by the way, will
laugh at a wussy 2X rivet gun.
Just talked to my A&P/IA who's done my planes for 30 years about the
bolts. He's OK with them, therefore, so am I.
Paul R
standing in line to pickup
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz<mailto:psm@att.net>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
<psm@att.net<mailto:psm@att.net>>
As I understand it this coin has two bad sides . . .
We discussed this situation at my last EAA chapter meeting. One
member (who happens to be a supervisor at Boeing) mentioned a
potential problem with aircraft rivets. His point was that if the
rivets are not properly set they may not compress the parts they are
supposed to hold together. This is not an issue (according to him)
with bolts since the torque applied is directly reflected in the
joint.
I didn't really understand his comments, but the bottom line is there
are potential problems with bolts or rivets - especially rivets set
by builders who may have selected the Zodiac design because it didn't
require setting any hard rivets.
Paul
XL upgrade kit on order
At 06:52 PM 12/3/2009, you wrote:
>the upgrade could actually degrade the strength of the main spar
>over time since Zenith has moved back toward main spar AN bolts that
>cannot be inspected and re-torqued.
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Hello Sabrina,
-
Reading your coment, yes you- have a point.-
I have a small dial torque wrench and take lots of care with AN-3 bolts,-
- sure only use them once...- Need retorque,- trash them and use new
ones...
-
Have a great vacation trip!-- Big diference in climate.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
Hey Jim, doing just fine...- I will be on my way to Miami for a cruise in
two weeks time...- :O)
Gary...- torquing an AN3 bolt within its 5 in pound range is hard when yo
u are retofitting a 1/8" angle to a couple 1/4" doublers.- The tendancy i
s to overtorque because it feels like you are still bringing the materials
into contact.- Even worse, the nylo nut can give you a couple inch pounds
of drag, depending upon the temperature.- So too, I have not found a tor
que wrench yet that appears accurate to me at that low of a torque range.
---Even Aircraft Spruces' $200 dial type is only +/-2% accurate and t
hat is NOT 2% of your value but 4% of its range.---With wood, the woo
d should compress long before the AN3 will be damaged.
As Jim points out, it is an art to be learned.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276222#276222
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Push/Pull tubes (New Design) |
Well I got my new parts today and the new push/pull tube is gonna work out
just like I thought.
I won't have the wing finished until the end of the week and the new .035
tubes won't be here until the 9th.
I will add a .125 plate to the spar and rivet the new angle brackets to
them. I will also add a access hole to the underside of the wing to service
the new bell crank.
Here is a pic.
You can see more pics and also all my upgrade videos at my blog on the
Zenith.aero site here is the link
_http://www.zenith.aero/profiles/blogs/jeff-garretts-blog_ (http://www.zenith.aero/profiles/blogs/jeff-garretts-blog)
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