Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:37 PM - Re: I don't understand... (Louie928)
2. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Jim Belcher)
3. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Bryan Martin)
4. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (afterfxllc@aol.com)
5. 04:15 PM - Re: I don't understand... (Louie928)
6. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
7. 05:10 PM - Dzus Fasteners? (Brian Manlove)
8. 06:19 PM - Chronical of Upgrade Effort (leinad)
9. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (JohnDRead@aol.com)
10. 11:10 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Jim,
Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is important
and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely ignored by
Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit especially in
"primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is permissible (to measure
the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger than the nominal
bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size larger since size
A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says
if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. Is that permissible
here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap material,
and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too much. Ream the
"too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press
fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about
this and should just go ahead and bolt it together sloppy holes and all.
stormyflight(at)yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Also, hole quality is critical since the bolts don't squish to fill the hole.
My comment was just saying that if done right, it works just as well as a
rivet and there should be no tendency to come loose (no re-torquing required).
There are also some non-driven rivets that we use a lot called Hyloks which
are set using wrenches. A little pricey at about $5 each, but would definitely
do the job.
>
> Jim
>
--------
Louis W. Ott
601XL beginner Quick Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276370#276370
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill
index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have
thought the next letter size larger would be "B."
Or do I totally misunderstand your statement?
On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote:
>
> Jim,
> Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is
> important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely
> ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit
> especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is
> permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size
> larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next
> letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size
> for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the
> next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may
> remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the
> weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin
> wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and
> for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go
> ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all.
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
The next "letter" size drill bit larger than an A3 bolt would be a #12 at 0.189".
Letter drill bits start at A (0.234") and go up in size to Z (0.413"). Numbered
drill bits start at #1 (0.228") and go down in size to #80 (0.0135").
>
> Jim,
> Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is important
and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely ignored
by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit especially in
"primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is permissible (to measure
the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger than the nominal
bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size larger since
size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13
says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. Is that
permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap material,
and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too much. Ream
the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press
fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about
this and should just go ahead and bolt it together !
> sloppy holes and all.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
Guys
You are making too big a deal out of this. If the hole is sloppy drill it
one bolt size bigger. But everyone here has someone close that has a rive
t gun so get on the RV list and see if you can find someone to help you se
t the rivets. After the prep is done it only takes 20 mins to re rivet the
spar. What we are looking for here is the clamping force more than shear
.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand...
et>
The next "letter" size drill bit larger than an A3 bolt would be a #12 at
.189". Letter drill bits start at A (0.234") and go up in size to Z (0.413
").
umbered drill bits start at #1 (0.228") and go down in size to #80 (0.0135
").
Jim,
Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is
mportant and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely
gnored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit
specially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is
ermissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size
larger
han the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter
size
arger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3
bolt?
C 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt
size.
s that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the
cap
aterial, and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too muc
h.
eam the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for
ight press fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being to
o
nal about this and should just go ahead and bolt it togethe!
r !
sloppy holes and all.
--
ryan Martin
61BM, CH 601 XL,
AM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
I was trying to find a way to judge whether a hole diameter would be too large
for a AN3 bolt. Using the AC 43-13 method doesn't exactly work because there is
no letter size drill under size A. Carrying over to the same method using number
drill sizes as a gauge for acceptable hole size for AN3 bolt should work.
Looks like if a #11 drill slides through with clearance, then a AN4 bolt should
be used.
z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote:
> Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill
> index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have
> thought the next letter size larger would be "B."
>
> Or do I totally misunderstand your statement?
>
> On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Jim,
> > Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is
> > important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely
> > ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit
> > especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is
> > permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size
> > larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next
> > letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size
> > for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the
> > next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may
> > remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the
> > weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin
> > wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and
> > for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go
> > ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all.
> >
> >
>
> ============================================
> Do not archive.
> ============================================
> Jim B Belcher
> BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
> A&P/IA
> Retired aerospace technical manager
>
> Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
> Do not drink and derive.
> ============================================
--------
Louis W. Ott
601XL beginner Quick Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276387#276387
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
A # 11 will slide thru and a # 10 should be tight.
Message 7
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Too bad that the bolt points can't have a skin panel attached with dzus
fasteners... if they're good enough for passenger jets, why not a 140 KT
airplane?
How much of an opening do you need to have an inspection door to verify
the bolts are still there?
Brian M.
Don't want ZenithAir to succumb to lawyers and the "me generation..."
Message 8
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| Subject: | Chronical of Upgrade Effort |
If anyone is interested I've begun to chronicle the effort to upgrade to my aircraft
on my website.
http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us/zodiac/index.html
Dan
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276402#276402
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
There is a number drill that is 0.189 dia, that would be a good fit for an
AN3 bolt.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 12/5/2009 5:15:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
louieo@gorge.net writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Louie928" <louieo@gorge.net>
I was trying to find a way to judge whether a hole diameter would be too
large for a AN3 bolt. Using the AC 43-13 method doesn't exactly work because
there is no letter size drill under size A. Carrying over to the same
method using number drill sizes as a gauge for acceptable hole size for AN3
bolt should work. Looks like if a #11 drill slides through with clearance,
then a AN4 bolt should be used.
z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote:
> Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my
drill
> index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would
have
> thought the next letter size larger would be "B."
>
> Or do I totally misunderstand your statement?
>
> On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Jim,
> > Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts
is
> > important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been
largely
> > ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt
fit
> > especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it
is
> > permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill
size
> > larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no
next
> > letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum
hole size
> > for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out
to the
> > next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4
bolt may
> > remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used
the
> > weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a
thin
> > wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed
hole and
> > for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just
go
> > ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all.
> >
> >
>
> ============================================
> Do not archive.
> ============================================
> Jim B Belcher
> BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
> A&P/IA
> Retired aerospace technical manager
>
> Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
> Do not drink and derive.
> ============================================
--------
Louis W. Ott
601XL beginner Quick Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276387#276387
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: I don't understand... |
3/16 = .1875
#12 = .1890
#11 = .1910
#10 = .1935
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