---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/05/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 PM - Re: I don't understand... (Louie928) 2. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Jim Belcher) 3. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Bryan Martin) 4. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (afterfxllc@aol.com) 5. 04:15 PM - Re: I don't understand... (Louie928) 6. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 05:10 PM - Dzus Fasteners? (Brian Manlove) 8. 06:19 PM - Chronical of Upgrade Effort (leinad) 9. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (JohnDRead@aol.com) 10. 11:10 PM - Re: Re: I don't understand... (Afterfxllc@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... From: "Louie928" Jim, Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go ahead and bolt it together sloppy holes and all. stormyflight(at)yahoo.com wrote: > > Also, hole quality is critical since the bolts don't squish to fill the hole. My comment was just saying that if done right, it works just as well as a rivet and there should be no tendency to come loose (no re-torquing required). There are also some non-driven rivets that we use a lot called Hyloks which are set using wrenches. A little pricey at about $5 each, but would definitely do the job. > > Jim > -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276370#276370 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:22 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have thought the next letter size larger would be "B." Or do I totally misunderstand your statement? On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote: > > Jim, > Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is > important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely > ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit > especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is > permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size > larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next > letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size > for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the > next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may > remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the > weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin > wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and > for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go > ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all. ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. Do not drink and derive. ============================================ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:01 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... The next "letter" size drill bit larger than an A3 bolt would be a #12 at 0.189". Letter drill bits start at A (0.234") and go up in size to Z (0.413"). Numbered drill bits start at #1 (0.228") and go down in size to #80 (0.0135"). > > Jim, > Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go ahead and bolt it together ! > sloppy holes and all. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... From: afterfxllc@aol.com Guys You are making too big a deal out of this. If the hole is sloppy drill it one bolt size bigger. But everyone here has someone close that has a rive t gun so get on the RV list and see if you can find someone to help you se t the rivets. After the prep is done it only takes 20 mins to re rivet the spar. What we are looking for here is the clamping force more than shear . Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Martin Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... et> The next "letter" size drill bit larger than an A3 bolt would be a #12 at .189". Letter drill bits start at A (0.234") and go up in size to Z (0.413 "). umbered drill bits start at #1 (0.228") and go down in size to #80 (0.0135 "). Jim, Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is mportant and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely gnored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit specially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is ermissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size larger han the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next letter size arger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size for an AN3 bolt? C 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the next larger bolt size. s that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may remove too much of the cap aterial, and if very many had to be used the weight would increase too muc h. eam the "too big" hole and make a thin wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for ight press fit in the reamed hole and for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being to o nal about this and should just go ahead and bolt it togethe! r ! sloppy holes and all. -- ryan Martin 61BM, CH 601 XL, AM Subaru, Stratus redrive. -======================== ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. 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From: "Louie928" I was trying to find a way to judge whether a hole diameter would be too large for a AN3 bolt. Using the AC 43-13 method doesn't exactly work because there is no letter size drill under size A. Carrying over to the same method using number drill sizes as a gauge for acceptable hole size for AN3 bolt should work. Looks like if a #11 drill slides through with clearance, then a AN4 bolt should be used. z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote: > Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill > index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have > thought the next letter size larger would be "B." > > Or do I totally misunderstand your statement? > > On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote: > > > > > > > Jim, > > Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is > > important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely > > ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit > > especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is > > permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size > > larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next > > letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size > > for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the > > next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may > > remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the > > weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin > > wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and > > for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go > > ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all. > > > > > > ============================================ > Do not archive. > ============================================ > Jim B Belcher > BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science > A&P/IA > Retired aerospace technical manager > > Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. > Do not drink and derive. > ============================================ -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276387#276387 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:59 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... A # 11 will slide thru and a # 10 should be tight. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:26 PM PST US From: Brian Manlove Subject: Zenith601-List: Dzus Fasteners? Too bad that the bolt points can't have a skin panel attached with dzus fasteners... if they're good enough for passenger jets, why not a 140 KT airplane? How much of an opening do you need to have an inspection door to verify the bolts are still there? Brian M. Don't want ZenithAir to succumb to lawyers and the "me generation..." ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Chronical of Upgrade Effort From: "leinad" If anyone is interested I've begun to chronicle the effort to upgrade to my aircraft on my website. http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us/zodiac/index.html Dan -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276402#276402 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:22 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... There is a number drill that is 0.189 dia, that would be a good fit for an AN3 bolt. John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 12/5/2009 5:15:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, louieo@gorge.net writes: --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Louie928" I was trying to find a way to judge whether a hole diameter would be too large for a AN3 bolt. Using the AC 43-13 method doesn't exactly work because there is no letter size drill under size A. Carrying over to the same method using number drill sizes as a gauge for acceptable hole size for AN3 bolt should work. Looks like if a #11 drill slides through with clearance, then a AN4 bolt should be used. z601b(at)anemicaardvark.c wrote: > Forgive me for barging into the middle of your conversation, but in my drill > index, the letter size drills continue on up in diameter to "Z." I would have > thought the next letter size larger would be "B." > > Or do I totally misunderstand your statement? > > On Saturday 05 December 2009 14:34, Louie928 wrote: > > > > > > > Jim, > > Your point about the criticality of the hole size for these AN3 bolts is > > important and has been bothering me in that it seems to have been largely > > ignored by Zenith. AC 43-13 has a paragraph on the importance of bolt fit > > especially in "primary connecting elements". It says, " Generally, it is > > permissible (to measure the hole) to use the first-letter size drill size > > larger than the nominal bolt diameter,...". For AN3 bolts there is no next > > letter size larger since size A is 0.234". So what is the maximum hole size > > for an AN3 bolt? AC 43-13 says if the fit is too loose to ream out to the > > next larger bolt size. Is that permissible here? Seems like an AN4 bolt may > > remove too much of the cap material, and if very many had to be used the > > weight would increase too much. Ream the "too big" hole and make a thin > > wall bushing from 6061-T6 sized for light press fit in the reamed hole and > > for the AN3 bolt? Maybe I'm being too anal about this and should just go > > ahead and bolt it together ! sloppy holes and all. > > > > > > ============================================ > Do not archive. > ============================================ > Jim B Belcher > BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science > A&P/IA > Retired aerospace technical manager > > Mathematics and alcohol do not mix. > Do not drink and derive. > ============================================ -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276387#276387 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:28 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: I don't understand... 3/16 = .1875 #12 = .1890 #11 = .1910 #10 = .1935 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.