Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - 2009 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
2. 01:45 AM - Re: 601XL down in Arkansas (dustinheit)
3. 07:03 AM - Chat Room (George Race)
4. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: 601XL down in Arkansas (LarryMcFarland)
5. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: 601XL down in Arkansas (Bryan Martin)
6. 02:13 PM - Trailering a 601XL (dfmoeller)
7. 03:15 PM - Re: Trailering a 601XL (jaybannist@cs.com)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: Trailering a 601XL (Craig Spainhower)
9. 03:24 PM - Re: Trailering a 601XL (mhubel)
10. 04:28 PM - Re: Trailering a 601XL (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 2009 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous
contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through
the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL down in Arkansas |
Hello All,
I have noticed all of these posts are in regard to the 601XL that crashed in Fulton
County Arkansas. The man in the plane, Charles Cummings, is my grandfather.
I know the National Safety Transportation Board had recommended grounding the
601XL several times before my grandfather's crash and never did anything about
it until after my grandfather had died in the accident. The two wings of the
plane were peeled off by "flutter" in mid-air, and he crashed in a field. I
went to the crash site to get an idea of what might have caused the accident.
I originally thought my grandpa had a heart attack, hit the wheel, and pushed
down on it causing a downward crash. However, the wings were found far away from
the crash, one in a pond nearby, and the other several hundred feet behind
the main compartment. There was only a pit in the ground of where the crash occurred,
no ground marks... like that of what I would have expected from an emergency
landing. Not only did the FAA neglect to ground this type of aircraft,
but the engineer of the aircraft keeps saying to everyone that it is fine to
fly, although the wings causes "flutter" and rips the damn wings off the plane
in mid-air. I am very sad because of this event, and I miss him very much. He
raised me from childhood. Can anyone give me any advice on what I should do
to prevent this fatal injury to other pilots? My email is dustinheit@aol.com
Please contact me if you have any advice. He loved to fly. God Bless him and
may God welcome him into His arms.
Dustin Cummings Heitschmidt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278404#278404
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <blocked::http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page.
George
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL down in Arkansas |
Hi Dustin,
My condolences for your loss. The recent focus on the 601XL this past
year or more has been over the 6 aircraft that seem to have lost their
wings in flight.
The first assumption was that there was flutter. This was examined and
tested with sufficient means to determine that it was not likely to have
been flutter. Of
the several hundred XLs, only 2 or 3 have reported the possibility of
flutter in flight. The recent recommendations that the XL be grounded
until a resolution
be found has resulted in a precautionary retrofit kit to strengthen the
center spar, attach points and wings. The kit is being produced at this
time.
It is also possible that, as you commented, your grandfather may have
suffered a heart attack and pushed the controls forward enough to over
stress the wing
attach points and leave the wings a considerable distance behind point
of impact. At 120 mph, things occur quickly and parts could have been
strewn a hundred yards.
About 12 people have died in similar circumstances so far. I believe the
Zenith is doing as much as can be done at this time. They will
eventually be able to come to a conclusion as to the real cause. Because
they do not have deep pockets, I would suspect this may or not impact
their ability to stay in business long term.
I would suggest you permit enough time to pass to find the real reason
for your grandfather's accident and then decide what's respectfully
appropriate for his untimely passing.
Larry McFarland
601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
dustinheit wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have noticed all of these posts are in regard to the 601XL that crashed in
Fulton County Arkansas. The man in the plane, Charles Cummings, is my grandfather.
I know the National Safety Transportation Board had recommended grounding
the 601XL several times before my grandfather's crash and never did anything
about it until after my grandfather had died in the accident. The two wings of
the plane were peeled off by "flutter" in mid-air, and he crashed in a field.
I went to the crash site to get an idea of what might have caused the accident.
I originally thought my grandpa had a heart attack, hit the wheel, and pushed
down on it causing a downward crash. However, the wings were found far away
from the crash, one in a pond nearby, and the other several hundred feet behind
the main compartment. There was only a pit in the ground of where the crash
occurred, no ground marks... like that of what I would have expected from an
emergency landing. Not only did the FAA neglect to gro!
> und this type of aircraft, but the engineer of the aircraft keeps saying to
everyone that it is fine to fly, although the wings causes "flutter" and rips
the damn wings off the plane in mid-air. I am very sad because of this event,
and I miss him very much. He raised me from childhood. Can anyone give me any
advice on what I should do to prevent this fatal injury to other pilots? My
email is dustinheit@aol.com Please contact me if you have any advice. He loved
to fly. God Bless him and may God welcome him into His arms.
>
> Dustin Cummings Heitschmidt
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278404#278404
>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL down in Arkansas |
I'm sorry for your loss, Dustin.
Not much will be known about what caused the accident that resulted in your grandfather's
death until the NTSB has finished its investigation. Unfortunately,
even then the exact cause may not be known. Small aircraft have no "black boxes"
that can give investigators critical data about the crash. It isn't yet practical
or affordable to install such devices on small aircraft. All the information
has to be deduced from the accident scene, and it is not always easy to
come to a satisfactory answer. That can be pretty frustrating, but it is a fact
of life.
One problem is that a common cause has not ever been found for this group of accidents.
It's difficult to take corrective action if you can't find a problem
to correct. Keep in mind that one of the first of these airplanes to be built,
the Zenith factory demonstrator, has over 1300 hours on it. Many of those hours
were flown with a full load on long cross country flights to trade shows and
air shows. Hundreds of people have gotten demo rides in this airplane over the
years. For several years, the designer, Chris Heintz himself, flew his 601XL
all over the country. His sons now run the business and have doubtless flown
many hours in these aircraft themselves. My own airplane has over 300 hours on
it with no evidence of a problem. Many other 601XLs have hundreds of hours on
them with no structural issues. With this history, the designer has good reason
to believe that the design is basically sound.
Because of these recent accidents, the 601XL has become one of the most thoroughly
tested airplanes in this class and still no definite critical weakness has
been found. This testing has ruled out the possibility of flutter unless the
aileron cables are tensioned way below the recommended value. In the very few
cases where flutter has occurred, the airplane was successfully landed and the
cables were found to be slack. Setting proper cable tension solved the problem.
In these cases, the problem occurred on an early test flight and were the result
of improper assembly of the control system. And yet in these few cases,
flutter did not lead to a catastrophic failure, the pilot had time to recognize
the problem and take corrective action.
Just about any airplane can be made to come apart in flight. All you have to do
is suddenly yank the stick back to its stops at a high enough speed. Many pilots
don't like to admit it but pilot error is the root cause of more accidents
than all other causes combined. Even a good pilot can have a bad day. I'm not
saying that all of these accidents were caused by the pilot, but that possibility
has not been definitely ruled out either. Lacking a definite problem to fix,
the designer has decided to generally strengthen the wing structure of the
airplane to further increase the safety margin.
A careful reading of the NTSB report that recommended grounding the 601XL makes
it seem like a typical political CYA document. It appears to be based more on
rumor and conjecture than hard data. It seems to have been written by the political
appointees on the board without much input from the professional investigators
who do most of the real work for the agency. Fortunately, the NTSB can
only recommend, they have no authority to take action.
As far as the FAA grounding a particular aircraft type, this is fairly easy to
do in some cases. If the airplane is factory built to a type certificate, the
FAA can take action against the type certificate. Aircraft built to the recent
S-LSA standards do not have type certificates, however they are factory built
to a common design standard and the FAA can take action. The FAA has effectively
grounded the S-LSA version of the 601XL until they are modified with the upgrade
kit from the designer.
If the airplane has an experimental certificate, such as an E-LSA or an amateur
built aircraft, it becomes much more complicated. Dustin, your grandfather's
airplane was one of these. These aircraft are not built according to a type certificate
or a common design standard. Each one was built by an individual who
may or may not have built it exactly according to the original design. These
aircraft are considered one of a kind aircraft manufactured by an individual,
they don't even have to be called 601XLs on the airworthiness certificates. The
FAA would have to ground each of these aircraft individually. I doubt that the
FAA has the manpower or resources to carry out this task, even if were possible
to find all the 610XL that are out there. The FAA has recommended that all
601XLs be grounded until they are upgraded.
The FAA has left the responsibility for the continued airworthiness of experimental
aircraft with the owner of the airplane. This is one of the freedoms we enjoy
in this country. It also carries with it some risk, but what form of freedom
doesn't? Each person has to decide for himself how much risk he is willing
to accept. It is up to the owner of the airplane to gather any information affecting
the airworthiness of his airplane and then use that information to decide
if his airplane is safe enough to fly. The information about the recent accidents
has been widely disseminated. It has appeared in the Zenair newsletter,
which is considered the official outlet for information concerning the design
of Zenith airplanes.
On Dec 21, 2009, at 10:30 AM, LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
> Hi Dustin,
> My condolences for your loss. The recent focus on the 601XL this past year or
more has been over the 6 aircraft that seem to have lost their wings in flight.
> The first assumption was that there was flutter. This was examined and tested
with sufficient means to determine that it was not likely to have been flutter.
Of
> the several hundred XLs, only 2 or 3 have reported the possibility of flutter
in flight. The recent recommendations that the XL be grounded until a resolution
> be found has resulted in a precautionary retrofit kit to strengthen the center
spar, attach points and wings. The kit is being produced at this time.
>
> It is also possible that, as you commented, your grandfather may have suffered
a heart attack and pushed the controls forward enough to over stress the wing
> attach points and leave the wings a considerable distance behind point of impact.
At 120 mph, things occur quickly and parts could have been strewn a hundred
yards.
> About 12 people have died in similar circumstances so far. I believe the Zenith
is doing as much as can be done at this time. They will eventually be able
to come to a conclusion as to the real cause. Because they do not have deep pockets,
I would suspect this may or not impact their ability to stay in business
long term.
>
> I would suggest you permit enough time to pass to find the real reason for your
grandfather's accident and then decide what's respectfully appropriate for
his untimely passing.
>
> Larry McFarland
> 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> do not archive
>
>
> dustinheit wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I have noticed all of these posts are in regard to the 601XL that crashed in
Fulton County Arkansas. The man in the plane, Charles Cummings, is my grandfather.
I know the National Safety Transportation Board had recommended grounding
the 601XL several times before my grandfather's crash and never did anything
about it until after my grandfather had died in the accident. The two wings of
the plane were peeled off by "flutter" in mid-air, and he crashed in a field.
I went to the crash site to get an idea of what might have caused the accident.
I originally thought my grandpa had a heart attack, hit the wheel, and pushed
down on it causing a downward crash. However, the wings were found far away
from the crash, one in a pond nearby, and the other several hundred feet behind
the main compartment. There was only a pit in the ground of where the crash
occurred, no ground marks... like that of what I would have expected from an
emergency landing. Not only did the FAA neglect to ground this type of aircraft,
but the engineer of the aircraft keeps saying to everyone that it is fine
to fly, although the wings causes "flutter" and rips the damn wings off the plane
in mid-air. I am very sad because of this event, and I miss him very much.
He raised me from childhood. Can anyone give me any advice on what I should
do to prevent this fatal injury to other pilots? My email is dustinheit@aol.com
Please contact me if you have any advice. He loved to fly. God Bless him
and may God welcome him into His arms.
>> Dustin Cummings Heitschmidt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278404#278404
>>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Trailering a 601XL |
Can some of you who have already trailered your aircraft (like to the airport for
final assembly) give me a clue as to how wide the outermost dimension over
the gear is? It would save me a trip out to the workshop to measure it.
Thanks,
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278494#278494
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a 601XL |
Doug,
I moved my fuselage from home to the hanger in a truck that had a 7'-10"
wide door. I had to put a ratcheting strap across the width of the gear
and pull it in about 3'" or 4" to get it through the door. So I'm guessi
ng that means that my gear was about 8'-1" or 8'-2" out to out.
Jay Bannister
-----Original Message-----
From: dfmoeller <dfmoeller@austin.rr.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:12 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Trailering a 601XL
>
Can some of you who have already trailered your aircraft (like to the airp
ort
for final assembly) give me a clue as to how wide the outermost dimension
over
the gear is? It would save me a trip out to the workshop to measure it.
Thanks,
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278494#278494
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a 601XL |
8' give or take a few inches.
Craig
n601xs
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:12 PM, dfmoeller <dfmoeller@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Can some of you who have already trailered your aircraft (like to the
> airport for final assembly) give me a clue as to how wide the outermost
> dimension over the gear is? It would save me a trip out to the workshop to
> measure it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278494#278494
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a 601XL |
The wheels are 7 feet apart so you would need a 8 foot wide trailer to just wheel
it on.
I did the same thing using a 4 foot wide 16 foot long trailer but the wheels were
hanging over the sides. I supported the fuselage from under the mains, with
extra support for the tail end. I attached a picture of this unlikely combination
but I didn't get the feeling that it is really being passed through.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278506#278506
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0459_196.jpg
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a 601XL |
The plans say it's seven feet across from center to center of the mains. You'll
have to add at least six inches to that to account for the width of the wheels.
The horizontal tail is 91 inches wide with the tip farings installed.
I had a 24' long, 8 1/2' wide Haulmark trailer with a rear ramp. In order to get
my plane in that trailer, I had to remove the main wheels and install a set
of tool box wheels on angle iron bolted to the inside of the main gear springs
to get the plane to fit between the wheel wells of the trailer. I also had to
remove the stabilizer tip fairings to get the tail through the door. I had to
run the nose wheel up on a 4" ramp in order to get the tail low enough to fit.
On Dec 21, 2009, at 5:12 PM, dfmoeller wrote:
>
> Can some of you who have already trailered your aircraft (like to the airport
for final assembly) give me a clue as to how wide the outermost dimension over
the gear is? It would save me a trip out to the workshop to measure it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|