---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/30/09: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:09 AM - Re: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework (LarryMcFarland) 2. 07:48 AM - Re: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework (Bill Steer) 3. 08:00 AM - Re: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework (Leroy Wheeler) 4. 07:48 PM - Re: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework (Dogsbody) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:41 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework Hi Drew, The HDS could be flown with a 80 hp engine, but you'd have to pare down the weight to a bare minimum. The original HDS and HD flew with this size engine but climb performance was/is better in the HD because of the longer wings. I fly the HDS with a Subaru and can get 1400 fpm with it, still can't outclimb an HD with the same engine. Cruise is better, but with 80 hp, you probably would see 105 or so and 100 or less with the HD. These estimates are pilot, no passenger. 80 hp would really compromise your performance carrying two large people and I'd recommend you do the HD if you want to stick with 80 hp engines. Nothing wrong with 80 hp, but the HDS 23 foot wing would test your patience in a short grass strip. The HDS is a fine performer when the hp is closer to the 100 hp Subaru, even with the extra 12 lb radiator etc. But on landing two large people and the Subaru require a more attentive faster landing. I was a scratch builder and still field calls from a dozen or more people that are still building the HDS, some with Corvair and some with Subaru engines. The good number of builders flying the HDS still report the aircraft is an extreme joy to fly with any engine of at least 100 hp. If you're concerned with fuel, parts prices and maintenance costs, the Subaru is still a great little engine. It costs 1/3rd the price of the Rotax, is bullet proof and burns 87-octane car gas with no problems. If you need more info, you can email me and I'll try to help you get on with your project if I can. I am a strong advocate of scratch build process and Zenith aircraft are a pleasure to build that way. Larry McFarland (Plans built) 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com .. Dogsbody wrote: > > * * > > *Hi folks, Ive been lurking this group and perusing the archives for > a while in my research for my next aircraft project.* > > * * > > *I keep coming back to the Jodel D-11, the Davis DA-2a and CH-601 HDS, > and the CH-601 design is the only machine of the three which still has > any real support (to stave off any questions as to my thoughts > regarding the building the older 601 model - Ive eliminated the XL > and 650 off of my list due to heavier gross weight and thus higher > power requirements. While definitely related to 601 HD/HDS, I > consider the XL/650 a different aeroplane from HD/HDS).* > > * * > > *Myself: I have past experience with Heintz-type metal construction > from many hours spent on a Zenair CH-701 project, and have also > reviewed the excellent CH* *CH601.org website among many others.* > > * * > > *After my research, a few Qs remain unanswered. I sent these > questions off to Zenith via their excellent webpage but so far have > received no reply (I can well imagine that they have little time for a > mere plans-purchase enquiry at this point).* > > * * > > *My criteria: Scratch-build, seat two six-foot-two people, use a > economical Continental A-75/A-80 engine, have a realistic 100 mph > cruise speed and minimum 500 fpm climb rate with aforementioned engine.* > > * * > > *My questions to the Zenith601 group:* > > * * > > *1. **Does anyone have any experience with operating a Continental > A-75/A-80 in a CH-601, in particular the HDS? Ive overhauled and > currently operate one of these engines in my FlyBaby and nearly have > enough parts collected to build up a another. The installed wet-weight > of the A-series engine, ready to run with exhaust, mags and intake > system, is probably a hair under 200 lbs, probably 40 lbs heavier than > a 912 complete and ready to run? I have a fair bit of experience > with the A-series Continental engines, and can have one ready to fly > for a quarter of the price of a new 912 installation;* > > * * > > *2. **Is the A-75/A-80 engine suitable for the HDS airframe? It is on > the lower end of the factory published recommended power range for HDS;* > > * * > > *3. **What kind of realistic cruise could I expect with an A-75/A-80 > in the 601 HD and the 601 HDS? * > > * * > > *4. **Is Zenith still supporting the legacy 601 HD/HDS airframes? * > > * * > > *5. **Are there any people out there still embarking on scratch-build > HD/HDS projects?* > > * * > > *Oh, and one more: are there any Vancouver Island HDS builders or > flyers in this group?* > > * * > > *Happy New Year,* > > * * > > *Drew* > > * * > > *Bowers FlyBaby* > > *CF-UFL* > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:40 AM PST US From: Bill Steer Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework Just as a point of reference, I fly an HD with the Stratus Subaru engine. I'm seeing 107 MPH at 4400 engine RPM. Like Larry's HDS, the HD is an utter joy to fly. I'm not through my flight test period yet, so haven't flown with two people (or even dead weight in the passenger seat), but the climb performance is outstanding. BTW, I'm indebted to Larry and the other builders on this list for all their help. Bill LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > Hi Drew, > The HDS could be flown with a 80 hp engine, but you'd have to pare > down the weight to a bare minimum. The original HDS and HD flew with > this size engine > but climb performance was/is better in the HD because of the longer > wings. I fly the HDS with a Subaru and can get 1400 fpm with it, still > can't outclimb an HD > with the same engine. Cruise is better, but with 80 hp, you probably > would see 105 or so and 100 or less with the HD. These estimates are > pilot, no passenger. > 80 hp would really compromise your performance carrying two large > people and I'd recommend you do the HD if you want to stick with 80 hp > engines. > Nothing wrong with 80 hp, but the HDS 23 foot wing would test your > patience in a short grass strip. The HDS is a fine performer when the > hp is closer to the > 100 hp Subaru, even with the extra 12 lb radiator etc. But on landing > two large people and the Subaru require a more attentive faster landing. > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:31 AM PST US From: "Leroy Wheeler" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework Dear Dogsbody, I just finished a 601HD scratch built and have about 14 hours on it so far. I agree with Larry that even the 601HD is a much better performer with the Subaru EA-81 engine. The engine is as they say bulletproof and with the Stratus re-drive system is capable of climb and cruise speeds as fast as any 172 even with 2 people aboard. I use a Warp Drive 3 blade 70" prop set at 171/2 degrees of pitch. I've seen 130 MPH at cruise and a 1000 FPM climb. Unlike the C-85-90 the Subaru starts immediately even in the coldest weather when equipped with a Stratus intake and 2 Bing carbs. Stratus makes a secondary ignition which is all electronic with a crank sensor attached to the re-drive & fired by magnets in the flywheel. The setup works great! I've flown certified aircraft for over 25 years and this is the best engine I've ever flown behind. In short, this a great airframe and a great engine. Good luck with your project. Regards, Leroy Wheeler _____ From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dogsbody Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:02 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework Hi folks, I've been lurking this group and perusing the archives for a while in my research for my next aircraft project. I keep coming back to the Jodel D-11, the Davis DA-2a and CH-601 HDS, and the CH-601 design is the only machine of the three which still has any real support (to stave off any questions as to my thoughts regarding the building the older 601 model - I've eliminated the XL and 650 off of my list due to heavier gross weight and thus higher power requirements. While definitely related to '601 HD/HDS, I consider the XL/650 a different aeroplane from HD/HDS). Myself: I have past experience with Heintz-type metal construction from many hours spent on a Zenair CH-701 project, and have also reviewed the excellent CH CH601.org website among many others. After my research, a few Q's remain unanswered. I sent these questions off to Zenith via their excellent webpage but so far have received no reply (I can well imagine that they have little time for a mere plans-purchase enquiry at this point). My criteria: Scratch-build, seat two six-foot-two people, use a economical Continental A-75/A-80 engine, have a realistic 100 mph cruise speed and minimum 500 fpm climb rate with aforementioned engine. My questions to the Zenith601 group: 1. Does anyone have any experience with operating a Continental A-75/A-80 in a CH-601, in particular the HDS? I've overhauled and currently operate one of these engines in my FlyBaby and nearly have enough parts collected to build up a another. The installed wet-weight of the A-series engine, ready to run with exhaust, mags and intake system, is probably a hair under 200 lbs, probably 40 lbs heavier than a 912 "complete and ready to run"? I have a fair bit of experience with the A-series Continental engines, and can have one ready to fly for a quarter of the price of a new 912 installation; 2. Is the A-75/A-80 engine suitable for the HDS airframe? It is on the lower end of the factory published recommended power range for HDS; 3. What kind of realistic cruise could I expect with an A-75/A-80 in the 601 HD and the 601 HDS? 4. Is Zenith still supporting the "legacy" 601 HD/HDS airframes? 5. Are there any people out there still embarking on scratch-build HD/HDS projects? Oh, and one more: are there any Vancouver Island 'HDS builders or flyers in this group? Happy New Year, Drew Bowers FlyBaby CF-UFL 07:27:00 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:20 PM PST US From: "Dogsbody" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: CH-601 HDS questions: doin' my homework Thanks for the responses folks, very much appreciated. I'll have to consider me options as the consensus, on-list and off, seems to be that the closer to 100 hp the better for HDS, although 75/hp may be acceptable for an 'HD. I'll try giving a call to Zenith to get any feedback from them. Also, I'll have to try and sit in one to see if I fit in the type comfortably (and maybe even get a familiarization flight). Ideally I would like to use the A-series Continental engine as these are what I have, I can build up an uprated engine and test it in a proven airframe if necessary... perhaps a turbo? I will see what I can come up within my budget-comfort range and decide if it would be successful in a Zodiac for what I want, an honest 100 mph (or better) cruise and at least 500 fpm climb at gross weight. I've flown behind CAM-100 and Model-A Ford flight-converted engines and appreciate what it takes to get an auto conversion to run both reliably and cool. Not to ignore the auto conversion option (got a low-mileage Subaru engine in my shed if I decided to go that route), but I didn't care for the high revving of the CAM-100. Also. my flight experiences in air-testing both of the above auto-engines have not been entirely positive. It's serious business flying a new aeroplane with an unproven (or should I say "yet to be de-bugged") engine. My research of Zodiac continues! 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