Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:45 AM - Re: Aileron Stops (Terry Phillips)
2. 05:43 AM - Starter/alternator (Bob Gibfried)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Aileron Stops (mhubel)
4. 08:51 AM - Re: Starter/alternator (Paul Mulwitz)
5. 08:58 AM - Sad News (Bill Pagan)
6. 12:49 PM - rivet sets (Jim Belcher)
7. 01:45 PM - Re: rivet sets (Terry Phillips)
8. 02:43 PM - Re: rivet sets (jaybannist@cs.com)
9. 02:50 PM - Re: rivet sets (DaveG601XL)
10. 02:50 PM - Re: rivet sets (Deems Herring)
11. 04:53 PM - Re: rivet sets (Terry Phillips)
12. 07:18 PM - Re: rivet sets (Floyd Wilkes)
13. 10:25 PM - Re: rivet sets (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Stops |
Peter
I believe that the reason for the constraint on the stick movement is so
that you do not overstress the aileron control system. That was potential
problem before the upgrade reinforced the aileron bell crank support. The
strength of the original design bell crank support was marginal at best.
(See, e.g., Ihab Awad's back of the envelope calculation that was posted on
the ZBAG forum many moons ago.) The reinforced system should have ample
strength, but, for a couple of ounces, they apparently decided to eliminate
the possibility of excessive tension on the control cables. IIRC, the
Germans required the stick constraint (which was part of CZAW's
configuration) as a condition for ungrounding their 601XL's. So they are
now consistent on both sides of the Atlantic.
Terry
At 12:08 PM 2/8/2010 +1100, you wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>
>I have just about finished installing the upgrade mods and I am just about
>to do the aileron stops. I have stops on the wing at the aileron control
>arm. Why do I need them in the fuse as well?
>
>Cheers
>
>Peter
>Wonthaggi Australia
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Starter/alternator |
Would like to ask some of the engineers on the net why there are no retrofit
starters/alternators for our engines? Would save a lot of weight and
complexity and maybe improve over some of our motorcycle 20 amp generators.
I understand that some of the new foreign cars are beginning to use them and
the garden tractors have used them for years. Is the technology that
complex?
What am I missing?
Bob, Wichita
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Stops |
Could I add that something does not seem to add up. Given that the original stops
are still to be used, the new parts (6-ZU-4-1 and 6-ZU-4-2) are redundant stops.
The FAA and EAA guidelines say that if there are stops at a control surface,
no other stop should exist in the system that restricts movement first. If
we follow this rule, then the new parts will be guaranteed to do nothing. This
sounds like a poor solution to a poorly thought out German rule.
On the flip side, I have always found that the area around the hinge and the aileron
connecting part 6W2-1 to be weak. It is easy to bend them by deflecting
the aileron with the stick locked in place. I had already beefed up the area around
the hinge more than the new plans call for and was planning to add another
support to strengthen 6W2-1.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
41 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285339#285339
Message 4
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| Subject: | Starter/alternator |
Hi Bob,
I don't know which engine you refer to.
On my Jabiru there is no pulley to drive a "Fan Belt" which would make
adding an alternator pretty easy. It has the guts of its alternator built
into the engine case or at least within the engine outline.
Paul
Camas, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Gibfried
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 5:41 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Starter/alternator
Would like to ask some of the engineers on the net why there are no retrofit
starters/alternators for our engines? Would save a lot of weight and
complexity and maybe improve over some of our motorcycle 20 amp generators.
I understand that some of the new foreign cars are beginning to use them and
the garden tractors have used them for years. Is the technology that
complex?
What am I missing?
Bob, Wichita
Message 5
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Just learned the sad news that Morry Hummel passed on February-4.-=0A
-Bill Pagan =0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and
AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and
don't have a matching rivet set.
Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I
usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has anyone
found these? If so, where?
TIA.
--
=======================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS,MS Physics
A&P/IA
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Instrument Rated Pilot
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
601XL Builder
=======================================
Message 7
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Hi Jim
I'm not sure of the problem, since all suppliers I have looked at have the
rivet sets, e.g.,
http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=2602A&ReturnPage=/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1
shows a rivet gun and sets including 3/16 and 5/32.
My problem is driving the big rivets w/o mangling the manufactured heads.
The jury is still out, but my practice efforts are pathetic. See attached
photo. I'm sure glad it's not on my spar.
Terry
At 02:47 PM 2/8/2010 -0600, you wrote:
>All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and
>AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and
>don't have a matching rivet set.
>
>Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I
>usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has anyone
>found these? If so, where?
>
>TIA.
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 8
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Jim,
I know that you can get them either at Brown Tool or US Industrial Tool &
Supply.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Belcher <z601c@anemicaardvark.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 8, 2010 2:47 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: rivet sets
m>
All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and
AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and
don't have a matching rivet set.
Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where
I
usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has any
one
found these? If so, where?
TIA.
--
========================
===============
Jim B. Belcher
BS,MS Physics
A&P/IA
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Instrument Rated Pilot
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
601XL Builder
========================
===============
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
Message 9
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Terry,
The only advice I can offer is this:
- Firm pressure on the rivet gun. Do not let off on the gun pressure until after
you let off on the trigger.
- Hold the gun very perpendicular. Don't eye the shop head during the squeeze,
keep attention of the rivet gun side.
- Use a fairly high air pressure. I used 90 psi for the -6's and like 70 for the
-5's. You need to get to the point where you can drive a good rivet in like
less than a second of trigger squeeze. Milking them at lower pressure only
makes a bad rivet.
- Practice makes perfect. Rivets are cheap, keep on bucking!
Here is my end result on the center spar. A few cosmetic edge marks are present
on the rivet heads and they are acceptable.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
116.5 hours and holding (incorporating upgrade)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285473#285473
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1996_165.jpg
Message 10
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What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look l
ike?
Deems
> Date: Mon=2C 8 Feb 2010 14:38:22 -0700
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> From: ttp44@rkymtn.net
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: rivet sets
>
> Hi Jim
>
> I'm not sure of the problem=2C since all suppliers I have looked at have
the
> rivet sets=2C e.g.=2C
>
> http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=2602A&ReturnPa
ge=/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1
>
> shows a rivet gun and sets including 3/16 and 5/32.
>
> My problem is driving the big rivets w/o mangling the manufactured heads.
> The jury is still out=2C but my practice efforts are pathetic. See attach
ed
> photo. I'm sure glad it's not on my spar.
>
> Terry
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 11
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Hi Deems
I've tried a variety of things, from a 3.5 lb bucking bar to the face of a
10 lb sledge hammer. I think that the 10 lb sledge worked best. The shop
heads look OK when I hold the bucking bar face normal to the rivet. When
the bucking bar is crooked, the shop heads are pushed sideways.
I've developed a few theories. I'm going to have a helper hold the bucking
bar so I can concentrate better on holding the rivet gun steady. I've been
going through a rivet/drill out cycle that enlarges the holes a bit. I'm
thinking that maybe the holes are too big, and so too much energy is needed
to expand the shank to fill the enlarged hole.
Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's
just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new,
and it didn't work as well.
Terry
At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote:
>What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look
>like?
>
>Deems
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 12
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Terry,
Definitely use a helper. The bucking bar must be normal to the rivet.
If the gun has a regulator on it, make sure it is turned way up. If it was
set for smaller rivets, that setting will not work on the larger ones.
I used a 4X gun turned up to near max and a helper with a 5 lb bucking bar.
Worked very well.
Also, a piece of tape placed on the set will help reduce the smilies.
Floyd Wilkes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Phillips
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: rivet sets
Hi Deems
I've tried a variety of things, from a 3.5 lb bucking bar to the face of a
10 lb sledge hammer. I think that the 10 lb sledge worked best. The shop
heads look OK when I hold the bucking bar face normal to the rivet. When
the bucking bar is crooked, the shop heads are pushed sideways.
I've developed a few theories. I'm going to have a helper hold the bucking
bar so I can concentrate better on holding the rivet gun steady. I've been
going through a rivet/drill out cycle that enlarges the holes a bit. I'm
thinking that maybe the holes are too big, and so too much energy is needed
to expand the shank to fill the enlarged hole.
Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's
just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new,
and it didn't work as well.
Terry
At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote:
>What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look
>like?
>
>Deems
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 13
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Hi Terry,
-
I think your Theory is correct...-- I am sure you will get better resul
ts using an already Trainned rivet gun ....- :-)- :-)- :-)--
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Still waiting for my Upgrade Kit.
Looking for a good ol' trained rivet gun.
--- On Mon, 2/8/10, Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net> wrote:
(snip)
Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's
just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new
, and it didn't work as well.
Terry
At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote:
> What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look
like?
>
> Deems
Terry Phillips- ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/-
le, List Admin.
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