---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/08/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:45 AM - Re: Aileron Stops (Terry Phillips) 2. 05:43 AM - Starter/alternator (Bob Gibfried) 3. 06:28 AM - Re: Aileron Stops (mhubel) 4. 08:51 AM - Re: Starter/alternator (Paul Mulwitz) 5. 08:58 AM - Sad News (Bill Pagan) 6. 12:49 PM - rivet sets (Jim Belcher) 7. 01:45 PM - Re: rivet sets (Terry Phillips) 8. 02:43 PM - Re: rivet sets (jaybannist@cs.com) 9. 02:50 PM - Re: rivet sets (DaveG601XL) 10. 02:50 PM - Re: rivet sets (Deems Herring) 11. 04:53 PM - Re: rivet sets (Terry Phillips) 12. 07:18 PM - Re: rivet sets (Floyd Wilkes) 13. 10:25 PM - Re: rivet sets (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:23 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Aileron Stops Peter I believe that the reason for the constraint on the stick movement is so that you do not overstress the aileron control system. That was potential problem before the upgrade reinforced the aileron bell crank support. The strength of the original design bell crank support was marginal at best. (See, e.g., Ihab Awad's back of the envelope calculation that was posted on the ZBAG forum many moons ago.) The reinforced system should have ample strength, but, for a couple of ounces, they apparently decided to eliminate the possibility of excessive tension on the control cables. IIRC, the Germans required the stick constraint (which was part of CZAW's configuration) as a condition for ungrounding their 601XL's. So they are now consistent on both sides of the Atlantic. Terry At 12:08 PM 2/8/2010 +1100, you wrote: >Hi Guys, > >I have just about finished installing the upgrade mods and I am just about >to do the aileron stops. I have stops on the wing at the aileron control >arm. Why do I need them in the fuse as well? > >Cheers > >Peter >Wonthaggi Australia Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:57 AM PST US From: "Bob Gibfried" Subject: Zenith601-List: Starter/alternator Would like to ask some of the engineers on the net why there are no retrofit starters/alternators for our engines? Would save a lot of weight and complexity and maybe improve over some of our motorcycle 20 amp generators. I understand that some of the new foreign cars are beginning to use them and the garden tractors have used them for years. Is the technology that complex? What am I missing? Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Stops From: "mhubel" Could I add that something does not seem to add up. Given that the original stops are still to be used, the new parts (6-ZU-4-1 and 6-ZU-4-2) are redundant stops. The FAA and EAA guidelines say that if there are stops at a control surface, no other stop should exist in the system that restricts movement first. If we follow this rule, then the new parts will be guaranteed to do nothing. This sounds like a poor solution to a poorly thought out German rule. On the flip side, I have always found that the area around the hinge and the aileron connecting part 6W2-1 to be weak. It is easy to bend them by deflecting the aileron with the stick locked in place. I had already beefed up the area around the hinge more than the new plans call for and was planning to add another support to strengthen 6W2-1. -------- Mark Hubelbank N708HU CH601XL Jabiru 3300 Rotec TBI 40 carb Sensenich ground adj prop. 41 hr TAF Pictures at photo.hubbles.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285339#285339 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:20 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Starter/alternator Hi Bob, I don't know which engine you refer to. On my Jabiru there is no pulley to drive a "Fan Belt" which would make adding an alternator pretty easy. It has the guts of its alternator built into the engine case or at least within the engine outline. Paul Camas, WA -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Gibfried Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 5:41 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: Starter/alternator Would like to ask some of the engineers on the net why there are no retrofit starters/alternators for our engines? Would save a lot of weight and complexity and maybe improve over some of our motorcycle 20 amp generators. I understand that some of the new foreign cars are beginning to use them and the garden tractors have used them for years. Is the technology that complex? What am I missing? Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:44 AM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Zenith601-List: Sad News Just learned the sad news that Morry Hummel passed on February-4.-=0A -Bill Pagan =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:37 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Zenith601-List: rivet sets All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and don't have a matching rivet set. Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has anyone found these? If so, where? TIA. -- ======================================= Jim B. Belcher BS,MS Physics A&P/IA General Radio Telephone Certificate Instrument Rated Pilot Retired Aerospace Technical Manager 601XL Builder ======================================= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:51 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: rivet sets Hi Jim I'm not sure of the problem, since all suppliers I have looked at have the rivet sets, e.g., http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=2602A&ReturnPage=/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1 shows a rivet gun and sets including 3/16 and 5/32. My problem is driving the big rivets w/o mangling the manufactured heads. The jury is still out, but my practice efforts are pathetic. See attached photo. I'm sure glad it's not on my spar. Terry At 02:47 PM 2/8/2010 -0600, you wrote: >All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and >AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and >don't have a matching rivet set. > >Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I >usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has anyone >found these? If so, where? > >TIA. Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: rivet sets From: jaybannist@cs.com Jim, I know that you can get them either at Brown Tool or US Industrial Tool & Supply. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Jim Belcher Sent: Mon, Feb 8, 2010 2:47 pm Subject: Zenith601-List: rivet sets m> All was going semi-well with the mod kit, until I went to set the AD5 (and AD6) rivets. It seems I've never had a reason to set this size rivet, and don't have a matching rivet set. Unless I'm missing something, ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and the others where I usually buy tools don't seem to have sets this big for rivet guns. Has any one found these? If so, where? TIA. -- ======================== =============== Jim B. Belcher BS,MS Physics A&P/IA General Radio Telephone Certificate Instrument Rated Pilot Retired Aerospace Technical Manager 601XL Builder ======================== =============== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: rivet sets From: "DaveG601XL" Terry, The only advice I can offer is this: - Firm pressure on the rivet gun. Do not let off on the gun pressure until after you let off on the trigger. - Hold the gun very perpendicular. Don't eye the shop head during the squeeze, keep attention of the rivet gun side. - Use a fairly high air pressure. I used 90 psi for the -6's and like 70 for the -5's. You need to get to the point where you can drive a good rivet in like less than a second of trigger squeeze. Milking them at lower pressure only makes a bad rivet. - Practice makes perfect. Rivets are cheap, keep on bucking! Here is my end result on the center spar. A few cosmetic edge marks are present on the rivet heads and they are acceptable. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 116.5 hours and holding (incorporating upgrade) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285473#285473 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1996_165.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:24 PM PST US From: Deems Herring Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: rivet sets What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look l ike? Deems > Date: Mon=2C 8 Feb 2010 14:38:22 -0700 > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > From: ttp44@rkymtn.net > Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: rivet sets > > Hi Jim > > I'm not sure of the problem=2C since all suppliers I have looked at have the > rivet sets=2C e.g.=2C > > http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=2602A&ReturnPa ge=/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1 > > shows a rivet gun and sets including 3/16 and 5/32. > > My problem is driving the big rivets w/o mangling the manufactured heads. > The jury is still out=2C but my practice efforts are pathetic. See attach ed > photo. I'm sure glad it's not on my spar. > > Terry _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:44 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: rivet sets Hi Deems I've tried a variety of things, from a 3.5 lb bucking bar to the face of a 10 lb sledge hammer. I think that the 10 lb sledge worked best. The shop heads look OK when I hold the bucking bar face normal to the rivet. When the bucking bar is crooked, the shop heads are pushed sideways. I've developed a few theories. I'm going to have a helper hold the bucking bar so I can concentrate better on holding the rivet gun steady. I've been going through a rivet/drill out cycle that enlarges the holes a bit. I'm thinking that maybe the holes are too big, and so too much energy is needed to expand the shank to fill the enlarged hole. Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new, and it didn't work as well. Terry At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote: >What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look >like? > >Deems Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:11 PM PST US From: "Floyd Wilkes" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: rivet sets Terry, Definitely use a helper. The bucking bar must be normal to the rivet. If the gun has a regulator on it, make sure it is turned way up. If it was set for smaller rivets, that setting will not work on the larger ones. I used a 4X gun turned up to near max and a helper with a 5 lb bucking bar. Worked very well. Also, a piece of tape placed on the set will help reduce the smilies. Floyd Wilkes -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Phillips Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:50 PM Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: rivet sets Hi Deems I've tried a variety of things, from a 3.5 lb bucking bar to the face of a 10 lb sledge hammer. I think that the 10 lb sledge worked best. The shop heads look OK when I hold the bucking bar face normal to the rivet. When the bucking bar is crooked, the shop heads are pushed sideways. I've developed a few theories. I'm going to have a helper hold the bucking bar so I can concentrate better on holding the rivet gun steady. I've been going through a rivet/drill out cycle that enlarges the holes a bit. I'm thinking that maybe the holes are too big, and so too much energy is needed to expand the shank to fill the enlarged hole. Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new, and it didn't work as well. Terry At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote: >What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look >like? > >Deems Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:57 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: rivet sets Hi Terry, - I think your Theory is correct...-- I am sure you will get better resul ts using an already Trainned rivet gun ....- :-)- :-)- :-)-- - Saludos Gary Gower Still waiting for my Upgrade Kit. Looking for a good ol' trained rivet gun. --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Terry Phillips wrote: (snip) Also, I'm using a well used 3X rivet gun that I bought off Ebay. Maybe it's just over the hill. Though I have a borrowed 3X rivet gun that is near new , and it didn't work as well. Terry At 05:23 PM 2/8/2010 -0500, you wrote: > What weight of bucking bar are you using and what does the shop head look like? > > Deems Terry Phillips- ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Balancing the ailerons and working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/- le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.