Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:53 PM - Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Tim Juhl)
2. 01:34 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Karl Polifka)
3. 03:16 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 05:59 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Garry Williams)
5. 06:28 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Paul Mulwitz)
6. 06:36 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Garry Williams)
7. 06:50 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Jeff)
8. 07:06 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Bill Pagan)
9. 07:37 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Peter Chapman)
10. 07:52 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Ron Lendon)
11. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 10:34 PM - Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? (Jonathan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
I suppose this subject has been beat to death in previous posts, but I've been
away for awhile and am just now preparing to take my wing apart and start the
modification process.
I originally went with the hingeless ailerons and would like to hear from those
who have done the mod as to whether you chose to keep the hingeless or install
the piano hinges and why?
Thanks!
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293390#293390
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
Tim,
We stayed with the hingeless. I think mostly because we've had all the fun
we could stand.
Karl
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:53 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
>
> I suppose this subject has been beat to death in previous posts, but I've
> been away for awhile and am just now preparing to take my wing apart and
> start the modification process.
>
> I originally went with the hingeless ailerons and would like to hear from
> those who have done the mod as to whether you chose to keep the hingeless
> or install the piano hinges and why?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tim
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on fuselage
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293390#293390
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
Hi Tim,
I am currently working on the upgrade and kept my hingeless ailerons as
originally built. I saw no reason to change them. The same logic applies
as applied originally. They provide a perfect seal and seem to work just
fine. AFter balancing the aileron moves very easily.
Paul
XL in upgrade process.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:53 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
I suppose this subject has been beat to death in previous posts, but I've
been away for awhile and am just now preparing to take my wing apart and
start the modification process.
I originally went with the hingeless ailerons and would like to hear from
those who have done the mod as to whether you chose to keep the hingeless or
install the piano hinges and why?
Thanks!
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293390#293390
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
http://www.corvair-flier.com/Wings/Wings_HomePage.htm
Greetings Paul,
I had just completed (clecoed) my ailerons, and was within a day of riveting
them up when I got news of the ZU upgrade.
I had asked the same as you about the hingless ailerons and was told
(nicely) by a couple of builders that the hingless method was obsolete and
that I should incorporate the hinge. So with that said I contacted Gus
(FlywithGus.com) and he recommended the same thing but that I should contact
Zenith to be sure.
So I sent an email to Zenith and Caleb replied that I should change the
hingless to the hinged ailerons and he gave me specifications how to
accomplish the modification. The link above has some of what I did to
complete this. Scroll down and you will see the ailerons mentioned.
--
Garry Williams
EAA - 1031 - http://corvair-flier.com/
Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder
Edinburg, VA
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| Subject: | Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
Hi Garry,
That all seems very odd to me.
The drawings (supposedly done by Chris Heintz) released with the upgrade kit
clearly says they apply to the hingeless ailerons as well as the hinged
ones.
I know the LAA drawing originally only applied to hinged ailerons, but I
think that is because only hinged ailerons are allowed in Great Britain.
They apparently have much tighter control over amateur built planes and
require a full review of the design and approval before they can be flown.
The approved design in G.B. has hinges.
If the hingeless ailerons are no longer allowed then why do the upgrade
drawings say they apply to them too?
Paul
XL in process of upgrade
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Williams
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
http://www.corvair-flier.com/Wings/Wings_HomePage.htm
Greetings Paul,
I had just completed (clecoed) my ailerons, and was within a day of riveting
them up when I got news of the ZU upgrade.
I had asked the same as you about the hingless ailerons and was told
(nicely) by a couple of builders that the hingless method was obsolete and
that I should incorporate the hinge. So with that said I contacted Gus
(FlywithGus.com) and he recommended the same thing but that I should contact
Zenith to be sure.
So I sent an email to Zenith and Caleb replied that I should change the
hingless to the hinged ailerons and he gave me specifications how to
accomplish the modification. The link above has some of what I did to
complete this. Scroll down and you will see the ailerons mentioned.
--
Garry Williams
EAA - 1031 - http://corvair-flier.com/
Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder
Edinburg, VA
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
Hey Paul, I agree with you that it seemed odd. But at the time (having
others tell me that it was obsolete) I had the opportunity to modify them
with just a few changes seemed the best way to go. I was honestly afraid
that if I had left them (hingless) some required Zenith change would come
around and strongly suggest that it be changed. SO I decided to change them.
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Garry,
>
>
> That all seems very odd to me.
>
>
> The drawings (supposedly done by Chris Heintz) released with the upgrade
> kit clearly says they apply to the hingeless ailerons as well as the hinged
> ones.
>
>
> I know the LAA drawing originally only applied to hinged ailerons, but I
> think that is because only hinged ailerons are allowed in Great Britain.
> They apparently have much tighter control over amateur built planes and
> require a full review of the design and approval before they can be flown.
> The approved design in G.B. has hinges.
>
>
> If the hingeless ailerons are no longer allowed then why do the upgrade
> drawings say they apply to them too?
>
>
> Paul
>
> XL in process of upgrade
>
>
> *From:* owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Garry Williams
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:59 PM
> *To:* zenith601-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
>
>
> http://www.corvair-flier.com/Wings/Wings_HomePage.htm
>
>
> Greetings Paul,
>
>
> I had just completed (clecoed) my ailerons, and was within a day of
> riveting them up when I got news of the ZU upgrade.
>
>
> I had asked the same as you about the hingless ailerons and was told
> (nicely) by a couple of builders that the hingless method was obsolete and
> that I should incorporate the hinge. So with that said I contacted Gus
> (FlywithGus.com) and he recommended the same thing but that I should contact
> Zenith to be sure.
>
>
> So I sent an email to Zenith and Caleb replied that I should change the
> hingless to the hinged ailerons and he gave me specifications how to
> accomplish the modification. The link above has some of what I did to
> complete this. Scroll down and you will see the ailerons mentioned.
>
>
> --
> Garry Williams
> EAA - 1031 - http://corvair-flier.com/
> Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder
> Edinburg, VA
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Garry Williams
EAA - 1031 - http://corvair-flier.com/
Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder
Edinburg, VA
Message 7
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| Subject: | Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
I wonder what Caleb's reasoning was. Did he say? Is anyone suggesting that
all the hingeless ailerons be changed? I would be very surprised at that.
Jeff Davidson
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Williams
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
Hey Paul, I agree with you that it seemed odd. But at the time (having
others tell me that it was obsolete) I had the opportunity to modify them
with just a few changes seemed the best way to go. I was honestly afraid
that if I had left them (hingless) some required Zenith change would come
around and strongly suggest that it be changed. SO I decided to change them.
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
Hi Garry,
That all seems very odd to me.
The drawings (supposedly done by Chris Heintz) released with the upgrade kit
clearly says they apply to the hingeless ailerons as well as the hinged
ones.
I know the LAA drawing originally only applied to hinged ailerons, but I
think that is because only hinged ailerons are allowed in Great Britain.
They apparently have much tighter control over amateur built planes and
require a full review of the design and approval before they can be flown.
The approved design in G.B. has hinges.
If the hingeless ailerons are no longer allowed then why do the upgrade
drawings say they apply to them too?
Paul
XL in process of upgrade
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Williams
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
http://www.corvair-flier.com/Wings/Wings_HomePage.htm
Greetings Paul,
I had just completed (clecoed) my ailerons, and was within a day of riveting
them up when I got news of the ZU upgrade.
I had asked the same as you about the hingless ailerons and was told
(nicely) by a couple of builders that the hingless method was obsolete and
that I should incorporate the hinge. So with that said I contacted Gus
(FlywithGus.com) and he recommended the same thing but that I should contact
Zenith to be sure.
So I sent an email to Zenith and Caleb replied that I should change the
hingless to the hinged ailerons and he gave me specifications how to
accomplish the modification. The link above has some of what I did to
complete this. Scroll down and you will see the ailerons mentioned.
--
Garry Williams
EAA - 1031 - http://corvair-flier.com/
Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder
Edinburg, VA
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Garry Williams
EAA - 1031 - http://corvair-flier.com/
Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder
Edinburg, VA
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
In the Q & A regarding-the-upgrade, Matthew says:=0A=0A"Your hingeless
ailerons are fine. You just need to install the aileron counterbalance weig
hts and the rest of the upgrade"=0A=0ASee it here: http://www.zenith.aero/f
orum/topics/qa-safety-alert-and-saib?id=2606393%3ATopic%3A37327&page=1#
comments- =0A-Bill Pagan =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0AFrom: Garry Williams <corvair.flier@gmail.com>=0ATo: zenith601-li
st@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, April 7, 2010 9:36:06 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenit
h601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?=0A=0AHey Paul, I agree with you that it
seemed odd. But at the time (having others tell me that it was obsolete) I
had the opportunity to modify them with just a few changes seemed the best
way to go. I was honestly afraid that if I had left them (hingless) some r
equired Zenith change would come around and strongly suggest that it be cha
nged. SO I decided to change them. =0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 6:27 PM,
Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:=0A=0AHi Garry,=0A>-=0A>That all seems
very odd to me.=0A>-=0A>The drawings (supposedly done by Chris Heintz) re
leased with the upgrade kit clearly says they apply to the hingeless ailero
ns as well as the hinged ones.=0A>-=0A>I know the LAA drawing originally
only applied to hinged ailerons, but I think that is because only hinged ai
lerons are allowed in Great Britain.- They apparently have much tighter c
ontrol over amateur built planes and require a full review of the design an
d approval before they can be flown.- The approved design in G.B. has hin
ges.=0A>-=0A>If the hingeless ailerons are no longer allowed then why do
the upgrade drawings say they apply to them too?=0A>-=0A>Paul=0A>XL in pr
ocess of upgrade=0A>-=0A>-=0A>From:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronic
s.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Williams=0A>Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:59 PM=0A>To: zenith601-list@
matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Keep Hingeless ailerons?=0A>
-=0A>http://www.corvair-flier.com/Wings/Wings_HomePage.htm=0A>-=0A>Gree
tings Paul,=0A>-=0A>I had just completed (clecoed) my ailerons, and was w
ithin a day of riveting them up when I-got news of the ZU upgrade.=0A>-
=0A>I had asked the same as you about the hingless ailerons and was told (n
icely) by a couple of builders that the hingless method was obsolete and th
at I should incorporate the hinge. So with that said I contacted Gus (Flywi
thGus.com) and he recommended the same thing but that I should contact Zeni
th to be sure.=0A>-=0A>So I sent an email to-Zenith and Caleb replied t
hat I should change the hingless to the-hinged ailerons and he gave me sp
ecifications how to accomplish the modification. The link above-has some
of what I did to complete this. Scroll down and you will see the ailerons m
entioned.=0A>--=0A>-- =0A>Garry Williams=0A>EAA - 1031 - http://corvair
-flier.com/=0A>Corvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder=0A>Edinburg, VA=0A>
-=0A>-=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List=0A>http://f
orums.matronics.com/=0A>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>-=0A>=0A
>=0A>" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
=0A>ttp://forums.matronics.com=0A>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A-- =0AGarry Williams=0AEAA - 1031 - http://corvair-fli
er.com/=0ACorvair Powered - 601XL Scratch Builder=0AEdinburg, VA=0A=0A=0A
-========================
====================0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
Hinged vs. hingeless ailerons:
I've posted about it before and haven't flown hinged vs. hingeless
for a long time, and only on the 601HD. But I recall hingeless was
perfectly good for normal maneuvering with small control inputs. But
if making larger inputs, like an approach on a gusty day, the
hingeless aileron forces seemed high, especially compared to the
light pitch forces, making for poorer control harmony.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
If you remember, the Zenith Demo airplane has the hinge less ailerons and they
did do the mass balance.
I don't remember the plans stating the hinge less ailerons were required to have
the mass balance but I do remember they did say to follow the LAA mods. In
the LAA mods I believe I read the mass balance was NOT required on the hinge less
ailerons.
Do we have a paradox here? I was planing on leaving that part out simply because
the down force strength of the hinge is much higher than .016" sheet metal.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293451#293451
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| Subject: | Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
Hi Ron,
My recollection is that the original LAA mod specifically stated it only
applied to hinged ailerons (the only kind in the U.K.).
The copy included with the upgrade kit I received clearly states the balance
is to be applied to the hingeless ailerons as well as the hinged ones.
Paul
XL performing upgrade
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lendon
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 7:52 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Keep Hingeless ailerons?
If you remember, the Zenith Demo airplane has the hinge less ailerons and
they did do the mass balance.
I don't remember the plans stating the hinge less ailerons were required to
have the mass balance but I do remember they did say to follow the LAA mods.
In the LAA mods I believe I read the mass balance was NOT required on the
hinge less ailerons.
Do we have a paradox here? I was planing on leaving that part out simply
because the down force strength of the hinge is much higher than .016" sheet
metal.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Message 12
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| Subject: | Keep Hingeless ailerons? |
I am also at this stage, with the upgrade..
Is the anyone that has flown the hinged vs the Hinge less. I have only flown
the hinge less, and would like to have the ailerons 'feel' the same in
terms of force, as the elevator, is it worth going hinged for this? I.E. is
it worth cutting a perfectly good hinge less aileron to make it hinged?
Thnx
Jonathan
(Fuselage upgrade complete, working on the right hand wing)
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