---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/14/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:19 AM - Alieron Trim (Peter W Johnson) 2. 05:02 AM - Re: Alieron Trim (Bryan Martin) 3. 05:12 AM - Re: Alieron Trim (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 05:54 AM - Re: Alieron Trim (Mark Hubelbank) 5. 06:01 AM - Re: Aileron balance weight bolts (Mark Hubelbank) 6. 09:39 AM - Re: Alieron Trim (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 10:58 AM - Re: Alieron Trim (Mark Hubelbank) 8. 03:44 PM - Re: Alieron Trim (Peter W Johnson) 9. 06:11 PM - Re: Alieron Trim (Dave Austin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:03 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Hi Guys, Having flown a few hours now, I find that, as expected, with full flap deployed the elevator trim "bottoms out" before balanced trim is available. I had a look at the LAA (UK) solution but found that my elevator trim tab is already at max downward travel and butts up against the elevator. Changing the tab horn would not make any difference to the travel available. I have an O-200 fitted and expect there is a little more weight up front than a Jab or similar. What have others done? I am thinking of adding a tab to the existing trim tab to increase its size, therefore providing more effect on the elevator. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:44 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim I riveted a sheet of aluminum onto my trim tab that just about doubled its area. The sheet is bent downward over the trailing edge of the trim tab to provide even more trim. I have the original small trim tab that just spans between two of the elevator ribs. I still can't trim out the plane with full flaps unless I have a full load and aft CG, but I usually don't use full flaps until short final anyway so I don't mind it much. I also have a bungee cord attached to the stick that provides some nose up trim. It's just enough to balance the weight of the elevator (the bungee holds the elevator in the neutral position on the ground). On May 14, 2010, at 7:15 AM, Peter W Johnson wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Having flown a few hours now, I find that, as expected, with full flap deployed the elevator trim bottoms out before balanced trim is available. > > I had a look at the LAA (UK) solution but found that my elevator trim tab is already at max downward travel and butts up against the elevator. Changing the tab horn would not make any difference to the travel available. > > I have an O-200 fitted and expect there is a little more weight up front than a Jab or similar. > > What have others done? I am thinking of adding a tab to the existing trim tab to increase its size, therefore providing more effect on the elevator. > > Cheers > > Peter > Wonthaggi Australia > http://zodiac.cpc-world.com -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:48 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Hi Peter, I am currently building a Wittman Buttercup which uses springs and levers for trim rather than an aerodynamic trim tab like the one on the Zodiac. I don't know exactly how you might implement this kind of trim, but it is an idea to consider. The notion is that a spring applies force to the elevator cable to reduce the force needed on the stick. By adding a control lever you can adjust the amount of force applied by the spring or springs. I have seen a variation of this idea to apply rudder trim in a Cessna 172-XP. In that case some bungee cord is used along with a lever and retaining slots for the lever. One advantage of using springs over tabs is the springs don't add any aerodynamic drag. Paul Xl - installing upgrade From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter W Johnson Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 4:16 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Hi Guys, Having flown a few hours now, I find that, as expected, with full flap deployed the elevator trim "bottoms out" before balanced trim is available. I had a look at the LAA (UK) solution but found that my elevator trim tab is already at max downward travel and butts up against the elevator. Changing the tab horn would not make any difference to the travel available. I have an O-200 fitted and expect there is a little more weight up front than a Jab or similar. What have others done? I am thinking of adding a tab to the existing trim tab to increase its size, therefore providing more effect on the elevator. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:42 AM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Peter, Early in the testing of my 601, I decided that not being able to trim properly on final was not acceptable. I put in a spring to counter balance the weight of the elivator on the ground. With that it can be properly trimmed with flaps. There are some pictures of this on photo.hubbles.com On 5/14/2010 7:15 AM, Peter W Johnson wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Having flown a few hours now, I find that, as expected, with full flap > deployed the elevator trim "bottoms out" before balanced trim is > available. > > I had a look at the LAA (UK) solution but found that my elevator trim > tab is already at max downward travel and butts up against the > elevator. Changing the tab horn would not make any difference to the > travel available. > > I have an O-200 fitted and expect there is a little more weight up > front than a Jab or similar. > > What have others done? I am thinking of adding a tab to the existing > trim tab to increase its size, therefore providing more effect on the > elevator. > > Cheers > > Peter > > Wonthaggi Australia > > http://zodiac.cpc-world.com > > * > > > * -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:34 AM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Aileron balance weight bolts Steve, I filled the tubes with lead. The right side to a depth of 6 inches and the left side (with the trim system) to 7 inches. Then I only needed 2 plates on the right side and 4 on the left side to balance. This was then small enough to fit through the holes as specified in the drawings. Of course much smaller bolts were used, AN3-15 and 16 sizes. I didn't like the idea that it would be difficult or almost impossible to adjust the balance or for that matter even remove the ailerons. If I had to do it all over, I would use a 1 inch or 1 x 3/4 tube and use all lead weight, no side weights. On 5/8/2010 7:28 PM, Stephen R. Look wrote: > > I just completed the first of my aileron updates and in the course of > playing with the balance weights couldn't find four bolts that would > fit the job. > I'm surprised there are not four of a kind AN3 bolts to use. > What has been the required bolt to hold weights and was it in the > upgrade kit? > I've considered the possibility that the two AN3-37 are for the > "light" aileron and the two AN3-30s are for the aileron with trim > {which I didn't install}. > If this is discussed in the notes or drawings, I missed it... > > Thanks, > Steve > > Steve Look > Monticello, IL > 601XL > "Dogs have owners, Cats have staff" > > -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:18 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Do you have the old style trim tab or the new style? In a message dated 5/14/2010 7:55:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, mhubel@nemon.com writes: Peter, Early in the testing of my 601, I decided that not being able to trim properly on final was not acceptable. I put in a spring to counter balanc e the weight of the elivator on the ground. With that it can be properly trimme d with flaps. There are some pictures of this on photo.hubbles.com On 5/14/2010 7:15 AM, Peter W Johnson wrote: Hi Guys, Having flown a few hours now, I find that, as expected, with full flap deployed the elevator trim =9Cbottoms out=9D before balanced trim is available. I had a look at the LAA (UK) solution but found that my elevator trim tab is already at max downward travel and butts up against the elevator. Changing the tab horn would not make any difference to the travel availa ble. I have an O-200 fitted and expect there is a little more weight up front than a Jab or similar. What have others done? I am thinking of adding a tab to the existing trim tab to increase its size, therefore providing more effect on the elevato r. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia _http://zodiac.cpc-world.com_ (http://zodiac.cpc-world.com/) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA _mhubel@nemon.com_ (mailto:mhubel@nemon.com) 978-443-3955 ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:00 AM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Peter, I have what I believe is the "new" style with the trim tab being the full width on the left side. On 5/14/2010 12:37 PM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > Do you have the old style trim tab or the new style? > -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:42 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Thanks Guys, I have the full trim tab but will add a tab to it and see how it goes. I have full authority everywhere else except full flap on finals. Cheers Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin Sent: Friday, 14 May 2010 10:03 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim I riveted a sheet of aluminum onto my trim tab that just about doubled its area. The sheet is bent downward over the trailing edge of the trim tab to provide even more trim. I have the original small trim tab that just spans between two of the elevator ribs. I still can't trim out the plane with full flaps unless I have a full load and aft CG, but I usually don't use full flaps until short final anyway so I don't mind it much. I also have a bungee cord attached to the stick that provides some nose up trim. It's just enough to balance the weight of the elevator (the bungee holds the elevator in the neutral position on the ground). On May 14, 2010, at 7:15 AM, Peter W Johnson wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Having flown a few hours now, I find that, as expected, with full flap deployed the elevator trim "bottoms out" before balanced trim is available. > > I had a look at the LAA (UK) solution but found that my elevator trim tab is already at max downward travel and butts up against the elevator. Changing the tab horn would not make any difference to the travel available. > > I have an O-200 fitted and expect there is a little more weight up front than a Jab or similar. > > What have others done? I am thinking of adding a tab to the existing trim tab to increase its size, therefore providing more effect on the elevator. > > Cheers > > Peter > Wonthaggi Australia > http://zodiac.cpc-world.com -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:55 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Alieron Trim Adding more tab will give you more drag. Why not raise the back of the horizontal stab to give more down bias? Dave Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.