Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:38 AM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim (Karl Polifka)
2. 06:37 AM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim (Mark Hubelbank)
3. 07:31 AM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
4. 03:32 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (fritz)
5. 03:54 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (Craig Payne)
6. 04:04 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (afterfxllc@aol.com)
7. 04:38 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (Craig Payne)
8. 04:57 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (afterfxllc@aol.com)
9. 07:50 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (Ron Lendon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim |
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed
(with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is
a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully
controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out
distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the
insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business
and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope.
Karl
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim |
Karl,
I would tend to agree that the 601 design probably has more flap
than it needs. It might have been better with less flap, that would have
reduced the pitch change (a good thing) and probably increased the max
flap down speed (another good thing). The small increased runway used by
1/2 or 2/3 sized flaps would not be noticeable in a plane that by my
standards can get into a postage stamp - this after flying a PA24-260.
On 5/16/2010 7:38 AM, Karl Polifka wrote:
> FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed
> (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure
> is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully
> controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out
> distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the
> insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business
> and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope.
> --
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim |
I concur ;)
In a message dated 5/16/2010 6:38:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
jfowler120@verizon.net writes:
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with
extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60
kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled
touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference
(this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I
wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not
getting into that envelope.
Karl
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel |
At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2"
? To restrict the flap travel?
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Polifka
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed
(with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is
a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully
controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out
distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the
insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business
and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope.
Karl
Message 5
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| Subject: | Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel |
At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled a
bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitches.
-- Craig
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ?
To restrict the flap travel?
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl <mailto:jfowler120@verizon.net> Polifka
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with
extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias
half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown
at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this
is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't
sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not
getting into that envelope.
Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel |
Yes the new style actuator has less travel and my test pilot had the same
concern about lack of elevator trim with full flaps but with half flaps
and keeping his speed up it works fine. Full flaps isn't necessary. He sa
id what was strange was it stalled right at 38 to 40 but wouldn't dare do
that on a landing.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled
a bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitche
s.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ?
To restrict the flap travel?
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Polifka
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with
extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60
kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled to
uchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance differen
ce (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy.
I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recom
mend not getting into that envelope.
Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel |
Really? I've had both the old one with the exposed micro-switches and the
new sealed one (circa Nov. 2008) and measured the travel of both. Unless you
crack open the sealed unit you can't adjust the travel. From the factory the
travel of mine was 2 and 1/8th inches or 54mm. The plans page for new style
actuator here (dated 11/06) show a travel of 50 mm:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6b19.pdf
For the old actuator the rough settings shown for the micro switches show in
6-B-19 (dated 08/05) give about 2 inches of travel (63mm - 12mm = 51 mm or
about 2 inches) but this adjustment is refined for 30 degree travel as
specified on 6-S-3.
For both the old and new plans the center-to-center length of the arm that
connects the actuator to the flap torque tube (6B19-3) is listed as 170 mm.
And the arm that drives the flap (at least on the right, 6B19-1) has a
center-to-center distance of 105 mm for the old and new design. So if the
actuators travel the same distance and the arms are the same length then how
did the angle swept change? Or has there been a third design?
-- Craig
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
Yes the new style actuator has less travel and my test pilot had the same
concern about lack of elevator trim with full flaps but with half flaps and
keeping his speed up it works fine. Full flaps isn't necessary. He said what
was strange was it stalled right at 38 to 40 but wouldn't dare do that on a
landing.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled a
bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitches.
-- Craig
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of fritz
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ?
To restrict the flap travel?
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl <mailto:jfowler120@verizon.net> Polifka
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with
extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias
half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown
at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this
is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't
sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not
getting into that envelope.
Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel |
I've got both styles on working aircraft and I will go measure the travel
on both but it just seems to me the new unit has less but I will confirm
this tomorrow. You may be in fact correct.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 7:37 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
Really? I've had both the old one with the exposed micro-switches and the
new sealed one (circa Nov. 2008) and measured the travel of both. Unless
you crack open the sealed unit you can't adjust the travel. From the fact
ory the travel of mine was 2 and 1/8th inches or 54mm. The plans page for
new style actuator here (dated 11/06) show a travel of 50 mm:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6b19.pdf
For the old actuator the rough settings shown for the micro switches show
in 6-B-19 (dated 08/05) give about 2 inches of travel (63mm - 12mm = 51
mm or about 2 inches) but this adjustment is refined for 30 degree travel
as specified on 6-S-3.
For both the old and new plans the center-to-center length of the arm that
connects the actuator to the flap torque tube (6B19-3) is listed as 170
mm. And the arm that drives the flap (at least on the right, 6B19-1) has
a center-to-center distance of 105 mm for the old and new design. So if
the actuators travel the same distance and the arms are the same length
then how did the angle swept change? Or has there been a third design?
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
Yes the new style actuator has less travel and my test pilot had the same
concern about lack of elevator trim with full flaps but with half flaps
and keeping his speed up it works fine. Full flaps isn't necessary. He sa
id what was strange was it stalled right at 38 to 40 but wouldn't dare do
that on a landing.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled
a bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitche
s.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel
At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ?
To restrict the flap travel?
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Polifka
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim
FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with
extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60
kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled to
uchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance differen
ce (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy.
I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recom
mend not getting into that envelope.
Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
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t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
========================
===========
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-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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-= Photoshare, and much much more:
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========================
===========
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel |
Jeff,
Measure the angle of deflection at the flap. That's what we should be looking
at anyway, the actual movement of the control surface.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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