---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/16/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:38 AM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim (Karl Polifka) 2. 06:37 AM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim (Mark Hubelbank) 3. 07:31 AM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 4. 03:32 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (fritz) 5. 03:54 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (Craig Payne) 6. 04:04 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 04:38 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (Craig Payne) 8. 04:57 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (afterfxllc@aol.com) 9. 07:50 PM - Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:16 AM PST US From: "Karl Polifka" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope. Karl ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:39 AM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim Karl, I would tend to agree that the 601 design probably has more flap than it needs. It might have been better with less flap, that would have reduced the pitch change (a good thing) and probably increased the max flap down speed (another good thing). The small increased runway used by 1/2 or 2/3 sized flaps would not be noticeable in a plane that by my standards can get into a postage stamp - this after flying a PA24-260. On 5/16/2010 7:38 AM, Karl Polifka wrote: > FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed > (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure > is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully > controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out > distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the > insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business > and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope. > -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:25 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim I concur ;) In a message dated 5/16/2010 6:38:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jfowler120@verizon.net writes: FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope. Karl (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:28 PM PST US From: "fritz" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ? To restrict the flap travel? ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Polifka To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope. Karl ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:56 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled a bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitches. -- Craig _____ From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ? To restrict the flap travel? ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Polifka Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope. Karl href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel From: afterfxllc@aol.com Yes the new style actuator has less travel and my test pilot had the same concern about lack of elevator trim with full flaps but with half flaps and keeping his speed up it works fine. Full flaps isn't necessary. He sa id what was strange was it stalled right at 38 to 40 but wouldn't dare do that on a landing. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54 pm Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled a bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitche s. -- Craig From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ? To restrict the flap travel? ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Polifka Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled to uchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance differen ce (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recom mend not getting into that envelope. Karl href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== -= - The Zenith601-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:19 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel Really? I've had both the old one with the exposed micro-switches and the new sealed one (circa Nov. 2008) and measured the travel of both. Unless you crack open the sealed unit you can't adjust the travel. From the factory the travel of mine was 2 and 1/8th inches or 54mm. The plans page for new style actuator here (dated 11/06) show a travel of 50 mm: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6b19.pdf For the old actuator the rough settings shown for the micro switches show in 6-B-19 (dated 08/05) give about 2 inches of travel (63mm - 12mm = 51 mm or about 2 inches) but this adjustment is refined for 30 degree travel as specified on 6-S-3. For both the old and new plans the center-to-center length of the arm that connects the actuator to the flap torque tube (6B19-3) is listed as 170 mm. And the arm that drives the flap (at least on the right, 6B19-1) has a center-to-center distance of 105 mm for the old and new design. So if the actuators travel the same distance and the arms are the same length then how did the angle swept change? Or has there been a third design? -- Craig _____ From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel Yes the new style actuator has less travel and my test pilot had the same concern about lack of elevator trim with full flaps but with half flaps and keeping his speed up it works fine. Full flaps isn't necessary. He said what was strange was it stalled right at 38 to 40 but wouldn't dare do that on a landing. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54 pm Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled a bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitches. -- Craig _____ From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of fritz Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ? To restrict the flap travel? ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Polifka Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled touchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance difference (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recommend not getting into that envelope. Karl href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =================================== t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List =================================== tp://forums.matronics.com =================================== _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel From: afterfxllc@aol.com I've got both styles on working aircraft and I will go measure the travel on both but it just seems to me the new unit has less but I will confirm this tomorrow. You may be in fact correct. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 7:37 pm Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel Really? I've had both the old one with the exposed micro-switches and the new sealed one (circa Nov. 2008) and measured the travel of both. Unless you crack open the sealed unit you can't adjust the travel. From the fact ory the travel of mine was 2 and 1/8th inches or 54mm. The plans page for new style actuator here (dated 11/06) show a travel of 50 mm: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6b19.pdf For the old actuator the rough settings shown for the micro switches show in 6-B-19 (dated 08/05) give about 2 inches of travel (63mm - 12mm = 51 mm or about 2 inches) but this adjustment is refined for 30 degree travel as specified on 6-S-3. For both the old and new plans the center-to-center length of the arm that connects the actuator to the flap torque tube (6B19-3) is listed as 170 mm. And the arm that drives the flap (at least on the right, 6B19-1) has a center-to-center distance of 105 mm for the old and new design. So if the actuators travel the same distance and the arms are the same length then how did the angle swept change? Or has there been a third design? -- Craig From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel Yes the new style actuator has less travel and my test pilot had the same concern about lack of elevator trim with full flaps but with half flaps and keeping his speed up it works fine. Full flaps isn't necessary. He sa id what was strange was it stalled right at 38 to 40 but wouldn't dare do that on a landing. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54 pm Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At least with my 2000 vintage plans and kit the factory actuator traveled a bit under 2 inches. This was the actuator with the exposed microswitche s. -- Craig From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fritz Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel At a later date, wasn't the flap actuator travel changed from 4" to 2" ? To restrict the flap travel? ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Polifka Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim FYI -- after a couple of nose slam-down landings at near stall speed (with extensive and expensive firewall damage), our landing procedure is a 60 kias half-flap approach with a relatively shallow and fully controlled to uchdown at around 50 -55 kias. It makes little roll-out distance differen ce (this is not a STOL airplane) and keeps the insurance company happy. I wouldn't sweat the elevator trim business and would very strongly recom mend not getting into that envelope. Karl href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== -= - The Zenith601-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: Alieron Trim/ flap travel From: "Ron Lendon" Jeff, Measure the angle of deflection at the flap. That's what we should be looking at anyway, the actual movement of the control surface. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297949#297949 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.