Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:04 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question ()
2. 05:01 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Bill Pagan)
3. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Mark Hubelbank)
4. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
5. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Leroy Wheeler)
6. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question (JohnDRead@aol.com)
7. 10:59 AM - Landing gear orientation (Tim Juhl)
8. 11:20 AM - Re: Landing gear orientation (Rick Lindstrom)
9. 12:03 PM - Re: upgrade question (Brady)
10. 03:34 PM - Re: upgrade question (Ron Lendon)
11. 05:30 PM - Re: Landing gear orientation (DaveG601XL)
12. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
13. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
14. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
15. 08:43 PM - Re: upgrade question (chuck960)
16. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Good question. I've heard of several people who have done that, and
apparently, nobody has complained about the result. While we're at it,
do any of the guys with real-world structural backgrounds have any
strong objections to using AN-3 bolts instead of rivets? Zenith said
they don't mind, and several A&Ps have said it's okay. With the proposed
number of bolts in the spar, the .008 (average) difference isn't going
to matter. I guess this goes back to Chris' comment one time, "You're
building a tractor, not a space shuttle".
Paul R
----- Original Message -----
From: chuck960<mailto:chuckde@roadrunner.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 10:56 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
<chuckde@roadrunner.com<mailto:chuckde@roadrunner.com>>
Why do the bolts have to be smaller than 3/8"? Is it edge distance
that is the problem? With all the drilling and back drilling it's hard
to get a perfect hole. The bolt may seem tight but the hole might not be
uniform through many layers of material. I thought of drilling a larger
hole after all the 5/16 bolts are in place by removing one bolt at a
time. A 3/8 bolt is much stronger than 5/16.
Chuck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298400#298400<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298400#298400>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I asked the same question after discovering that a couple of my spar bolt h
oles were out of tolerance (It is a quickbuild and came that way but thats
another gripe).- ZAC (Caleb) told me that 3/8 was the maximum you could g
o to due to edge distances but cautioned that the tolerance was only .004.
- If you should go over that, which is easy to do,-you would need to re
place the-spar etc. which would be in excess of $2K.- =0A-Bill Pagan
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: chuck960 <chu
ckde@roadrunner.com>=0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, May 20
, 2010 11:56:11 PM=0ASubject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question=0A=0A-->
Zenith601-List message posted by: "chuck960" <chuckde@roadrunner.com>=0A
=0AWhy do the bolts have to be smaller than 3/8"?- Is it edge distance th
at is the problem? With all the drilling and back drilling it's hard to get
a perfect hole. The bolt may seem tight but the hole might not be uniform
through many layers of material. I thought of drilling a larger hole after
all the 5/16 bolts are in place by removing one bolt at a time. A 3/8 bolt
is much stronger than 5/16.=0AChuck=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online he
re:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298400#298400=0A=0A
======================0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Bill,
Has anyone thought of using metric bolts. I expect there are the
same grade bolts available (perhaps even better) in 8 mm (about 0.0024
over and a standard metric size) and 9 mm (0.0418 over or 0.021 under
3/8, but a hard to get size).
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh) and I went to Lowes and
bought a 5/16 drill bit and just for shits and grins then drilled about 20
holes in a test piece of spar caps that came from the wing jigs and lo and
behold all of my holes done by hand with a drill came out to .312 to .314
and the bolts were snug so if you are half way careful you should be able
to just drill the holes.
And you can also buy oversized NAS bolts for the inept drillers out there.
:)
Jeff
In a message dated 5/21/2010 8:16:53 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
mhubel@nemon.com writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Mark Hubelbank <mhubel@nemon.com>
Bill,
Has anyone thought of using metric bolts. I expect there are the
same grade bolts available (perhaps even better) in 8 mm (about 0.0024
over and a standard metric size) and 9 mm (0.0418 over or 0.021 under
3/8, but a hard to get size).
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
We used a reamer but just chucked it up in a hand drill. That worked fine.
Leroy Wheeler 601HD plans built just about done flying off the 40
hours.
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh) and I went to Lowes and
bought a 5/16 drill bit and just for shits and grins then drilled about 20
holes in a test piece of spar caps that came from the wing jigs and lo and
behold all of my holes done by hand with a drill came out to .312 to .314
and the bolts were snug so if you are half way careful you should be able to
just drill the holes.
And you can also buy oversized NAS bolts for the inept drillers out there.
:)
Jeff
In a message dated 5/21/2010 8:16:53 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
mhubel@nemon.com writes:
Bill,
Has anyone thought of using metric bolts. I expect there are the
same grade bolts available (perhaps even better) in 8 mm (about 0.0024
over and a standard metric size) and 9 mm (0.0418 over or 0.021 under
3/8, but a hard to get size).
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - ================================================ Use
the ties Day ================================================ -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===============================================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================================================
14:26:00
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I discussed this option with a friend of mine a retired tool maker who is
making the upgrade to his 601. I am a retired mechanical engineer. If you
can ream the holes for a snug slide fit of A3 bolts into the holes then bolts
should be OK if the holes are over sized then rivets are the safe way to
go as they expand during setting the fill the holes. Just our two cents worth
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 5/21/2010 4:05:04 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
paulrod36@msn.com writes:
Good question. I've heard of several people who have done that, and
apparently, nobody has complained about the result. While we're at it, do any
of
the guys with real-world structural backgrounds have any strong objections
to using AN-3 bolts instead of rivets? Zenith said they don't mind, and
several A&Ps have said it's okay. With the proposed number of bolts in the
spar, the .008 (average) difference isn't going to matter. I guess this goes
back to Chris' comment one time, "You're building a tractor, not a space
shuttle".
Paul R
----- Original Message -----
From: _chuck960_ (mailto:chuckde@roadrunner.com)
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 10:56 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
(mailto:chuckde@roadrunner.com) >
Why do the bolts have to be smaller than 3/8"? Is it edge distance that
is the problem? With all the drilling and back drilling it's hard to get a
perfect hole. The bolt may seem tight but the hole might not be uniform
through many layers of material. I thought of drilling a larger hole after all
the 5/16 bolts are in place by removing one bolt at a time. A 3/8 bolt is
much stronger than 5/16.
Chuck
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298400#298400_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298400#298400)
http://www.matnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Landing gear orientation |
OK - I know this subject has been discussed before but I thought it would be interesting
to hear what people have to say after some time has passed.
I'm busy installing the mods in my wings at the moment but in the future I will
be back to building my fuselage. I have a Jabiru 3300 going up front and my
original intention was to install the gear flat side back. More recent plans
call for turning the gear around to avoid nose heaviness which results in the
nose plopping down on landing. On the other hand, I have heard that with the
gear turned around it is easier to ground the tail when boarding, especially when
it's a big guy (like me). That would be a little embarrassing at the least
:-)
I'd like to hear from guys who have done it both ways (with a similar weight engine)
to help me make a final decision as to which way to go.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298448#298448
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear orientation |
Hi, Tim!
I'm also a "big guy", and I'm in the process of turning my gear around so the flat
side faces forward. I'd much rather shift my weight forward when boarding,
then put up any longer with the inability to hold the nose off after the mains
touch in a full stall landing.
Given the low rotation speed of the 601, and the "nose heaviness" with a Corvair,
I think it makes sense to move the pivot point forward (assuming tricycle gear).
But I'm used to thinking about the tail going down while boarding - this happens
withh Grumman Tigers all the time when two big people get on the boarding steps
at the same time.
The solution is to install a skid at the rear tie-down eye, which will protect
the tail and the ring.
Rick Lindstrom
ZenVair N42KP (upgrade well underway!)
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim Juhl <juhl@avci.net>
>Sent: May 21, 2010 10:59 AM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith601-List: Landing gear orientation
>
>
>OK - I know this subject has been discussed before but I thought it would be interesting
to hear what people have to say after some time has passed.
>
>I'm busy installing the mods in my wings at the moment but in the future I will
be back to building my fuselage. I have a Jabiru 3300 going up front and my
original intention was to install the gear flat side back. More recent plans
call for turning the gear around to avoid nose heaviness which results in the
nose plopping down on landing. On the other hand, I have heard that with the
gear turned around it is easier to ground the tail when boarding, especially
when it's a big guy (like me). That would be a little embarrassing at the least
:-)
>
>I'd like to hear from guys who have done it both ways (with a similar weight engine)
to help me make a final decision as to which way to go.
>
>Tim
>
>--------
>______________
>CFII
>Champ L16A flying
>Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
>Working on fuselage
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298448#298448
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
> All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh) and I went to Lowes and
bought a 5/16 drill bit and just for shits and grins then drilled about 20 holes
in a test piece of spar caps that came from the wing jigs and lo and behold
all of my holes done by hand with a drill came out to .312 to .314 and the
bolts were snug so if you are half way careful you should be able to just drill
the holes.
> And you can also buy oversized NAS bolts for the inept drillers out there.
:)
> Jeff
>
>
I believe in the Wing Spar & Rear Channel section 6-ZU-1 on page 11 of the upgrade
instructions right below the top picture it specifically says:
"The Holes must be reamed to final size, DO NOT use a 5/16 drill bit to Drill the
holes."
But what do I know I'm not an aeronautical engineer.
I am however a FORMALLY trained machinist and I do know that if I were to willingly
disregard such an instruction and someone were to get hurt it would be grounds
for a Lawsuit and perhaps Jail time.
Just food for thought...
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298458#298458
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
> All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh)
Yeah it is, stop doing that!!!!! The information you have published is incorrect
and inaccurate.
The Machinery's Handbook lists a study done by the Metal Cutting Institute where
2800 holes were drilled in steel and cast iron and the results for 1/4" were
average oversize of .0065" and 1/2" were .008" oversize.
When an Engineer says to ream a hole, you better ream the hole.
Jeff, some times the things you say can be dangerous, especially if you are like
me and think you know the answers. I have finally reached a point in life where
I know, I don't know it all.
Wish you well,
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298471#298471
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear orientation |
Tim,
I am also a big guy. Only once when two of us were boarding the wing at the same
time did we even start to tip the airplane. My current practice, anyway now,
is to board and strap in my passenger first and then I board. No problems
what so ever. I am to the point where I can hold the nose off for a good 5-9
seconds after landing on the mains.
Go flat forward with your Jabiru and you will not look back.
Dave
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
Upgraded 3/19/10
120+ hours and climbing!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298480#298480
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Hey Brady,
Then I would suggest you don't install my TEST PIECE in your airplane HUH?
??!!!!
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 3:02 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
m>
fterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh) and I went to Lowes
and
ought a 5/16 drill bit and just for shits and grins then drilled about 20
oles in a test piece of spar caps that came from the wing jigs and lo and
ehold all of my holes done by hand with a drill came out to .312 to .314
and
he bolts were snug so if you are half way careful you should be able to
just
rill the holes.
And you can also buy oversized NAS bolts for the inept drillers out ther
e.
)
Jeff
believe in the Wing Spar & Rear Channel section 6-ZU-1 on page 11 of the
pgrade instructions right below the top picture it specifically says:
"The Holes must be reamed to final size, DO NOT use a 5/16 drill bit to Dr
ill
he holes."
But what do I know I'm not an aeronautical engineer.
am however a FORMALLY trained machinist and I do know that if I were to
illingly disregard such an instruction and someone were to get hurt it wou
ld be
rounds for a Lawsuit and perhaps Jail time.
Just food for thought...
--------
rady McCormick
oulsbo, WA
ww.magnificentmachine.com
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298458#298458
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
So you are telling me that the holes I drilled in my test piece were someh
ow wrong because of some other test that was done?
I never said do it I said I was testing it for SHITS AND GRINS and found
the holes would be within tolerance. And you can also mess a hole up with
a reamer as well if you use a drill and are not used to using it.
You and Brady must have had lunch together today and forgot how to read.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Lendon <ron.lendon@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 6:34 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
fterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh)
eah it is, stop doing that!!!!! The information you have published is
ncorrect and inaccurate.
The Machinery's Handbook lists a study done by the Metal Cutting Institute
where
800 holes were drilled in steel and cast iron and the results for 1/4" wer
e
verage oversize of .0065" and 1/2" were .008" oversize.
When an Engineer says to ream a hole, you better ream the hole.
Jeff, some times the things you say can be dangerous, especially if you ar
e like
e and think you know the answers. I have finally reached a point in life
where
know, I don't know it all.
Wish you well,
--------
on Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
W Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
odiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
ttp://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298471#298471
========================
===========
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-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
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========================
===========
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-= Thank you for your generous support!
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
O and BTW aluminum is much softer than steel and cast iron now isn't it.
And was the hole already there or where these new holes? Did they use hig
h speed bits or low speed, oil or no oil? was the test done by hand or usi
ng a drill press? New drill bits or old? was the test done by average peop
le or machinists? What was the thickness?
I drilled the freaking holes and they were within tolerance .002 under so
they would be acceptable if I were to use them.
If you are going to correct me at least compare apples to apples. OK?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Lendon <ron.lendon@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 6:34 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
fterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh)
eah it is, stop doing that!!!!! The information you have published is
ncorrect and inaccurate.
The Machinery's Handbook lists a study done by the Metal Cutting Institute
where
800 holes were drilled in steel and cast iron and the results for 1/4" wer
e
verage oversize of .0065" and 1/2" were .008" oversize.
When an Engineer says to ream a hole, you better ream the hole.
Jeff, some times the things you say can be dangerous, especially if you ar
e like
e and think you know the answers. I have finally reached a point in life
where
know, I don't know it all.
Wish you well,
--------
on Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
W Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
odiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
ttp://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298471#298471
========================
===========
-= - The Zenith601-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
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-
-========================
========================
===========
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-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I thought we were talking about reaming holes not each other.
I will drill some test pieces as well before I do the Spar.
If someone could point me to the oversize NAS bolt store. Maybe I'll try that instead
of reaming to .375.
Chuck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298490#298490
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Chuck,
Shirley at Zenith can give you the source for the oversized bolts. If you
decide to switch to 3/8 you still need to use NAS bolts even though the
diameter of the 3/8 bolt is larger.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: chuck960 <chuckde@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 11:43 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
I thought we were talking about reaming holes not each other.
will drill some test pieces as well before I do the Spar.
f someone could point me to the oversize NAS bolt store. Maybe I'll try th
at
nstead of reaming to .375.
huck
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298490#298490
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