Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:33 AM - Re: upgrade question (pavel569)
2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Terry Phillips)
3. 10:07 AM - Re: upgrade question (chuck960)
4. 12:55 PM - Re: upgrade question (Brady)
5. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Bill Pagan)
6. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
7. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
8. 02:15 PM - Purpose of bottom cap angle 6 ZU1-5 (chris Sinfield)
9. 04:49 PM - Re: Purpose of bottom cap angle 6 ZU1-5 (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
10. 05:12 PM - Re: upgrade question (chuck960)
11. 05:14 PM - Oops! A6 Rivet question (Tim Juhl)
12. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Floyd Wilkes)
13. 07:43 PM - Re: upgrade question (Louie928)
14. 10:36 PM - Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question (Brady)
15. 10:57 PM - Re: upgrade question (Brady)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I'm not an aeronautical engineer as well but I'm a machinist and some of my parts
are flying in space, so I might have some experience and skills. In my case
I always use jigs or fixtures, even for riveting so I hold the rivet gun perpendicular
to the riveted surface. For reaming - there is no question that I'll
use drill guide clamped to the material. If you don't use reamer with guide,
the hole you reamed can be not only out of center of your original drilled hole
(which doesn't necessarily has to be round) but oblong as well. I don't know
how you check the diameter of the holes you drill or ream but if you use pins
you'll measure the minor diameter only. it means - in extreme - I can have a
slot of .250" width and length of 2" and you still fit through .250" pin. Unless
you use optical comparator (which I do for my work, not for Zodiac build)
you can't say that the hole you drilled is perfectly round and within tolerances.
I know we're not building space shuttle but some of the comments about reaming
and drilling brought chill on my back and led my hair to stand up (which actually
made me happy as I'm almost bald) :D .
--------
Pavel
CA
Zodiac 601XL
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done (not anymore), fuselage is on the table ....
"do not archive"
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Chuck, I looked for some oversize AN3's for the spar root doubler joint.
They were very hard to find, and pricey when I found them--check out:
http://www.arizona-aero.com/nas_list.html
You'll need to request a quote, and, for that you'll have to decipher the
part number codes. Ultimately, I decided to go with AN4's. They are about
40x cheaper than over size NAS6204-11's. (I believe, but I'm not positive,
that oversize AN's do not exist. The oversize bolts all seem to be NAS's. I
suspect it's a tolerance thing.)
Terry
At 08:43 PM 5/21/2010 -0700, you wrote:
>I thought we were talking about reaming holes not each other.
>I will drill some test pieces as well before I do the Spar.
>If someone could point me to the oversize NAS bolt store. Maybe I'll try
>that instead of reaming to .375.
>Chuck
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Well put Pavel!
I think this is why I may go to .375". The layers will be held in higher tension.
The bolts are stronger but may be very close to being out of tolerance (edge
distance) But at least the holes can be reamed after all the parts ate in place
(only from the aft drilling forward) opening the hole from a somewhat sloppy
5/16" to .375 with the final reamer being .374 (subject to testing). Maybe
I drink too much coffee!
Comments?
Chuck
CH650 65%
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Gentlemen,
The part #'s for the over sized bolts are:
NAS6205-22x
NAS6205-23x
the "X" in the part # specifies the over size.
Also there is a "y" for the next over size.
I forget if the oversize increments are .010" or .015" for the "X" but the "Y"
is 2 times the "X" dimension. (.020" or .030").
Regardless I had a very lengthy discussion with Caleb about this because I have
2 airplanes in my shop that will require over sized bolts.
Caleb told me to "avoid over sizing to 3/8 if at all possible."
His reason for this is that at 3/8 the minimum edge distance becomes dangerously
close.
My experience with sourcing the oversize bolts is that they are very rare and very
expensive.
I sourced certified bolts @ $40 each.
I was lucky to find some surplus bolts without certification papers for $10 each
and so I bought all they had. Unfortunately this still is not enough to complete
both airplanes. so the search continues.
Just because the animal exists doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to hunt!
Or that you will bag one
For what its worth:
A 2 flute drill will produce a hole with 3 corners.
A 3 flute drill will produce a hole with 4 corners.
A 4 flute drill will produce a hole with 5 corners.
and so on.
With each additional flute the corners decrease in depth.
the formula is N+1 (N=number of flutes).
I learned this in my first week as an apprentice with the IAM (International Aerospace
Workers & Machinists Union)
I think this is covered in the Machinery's Hand book as well?
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298532#298532
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
The "X" is .015 oversize and the "Y" is .030 oversize.=0A-Bill Pagan =0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Brady <brady@mag
nificentmachine.com>=0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, May 22
, 2010 3:54:59 PM=0ASubject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question=0A=0A-->
Zenith601-List message posted by: "Brady" <brady@magnificentmachine.com>=0A
=0AGentlemen,=0A=0AThe part #'s for the over sized bolts are:=0ANAS6205-22x
=0ANAS6205-23x=0Athe "X" in the part # specifies the over size.=0AAlso ther
e is a "y" for the next over size.=0AI forget if the oversize increments ar
e .010" or .015" for the "X" but the "Y" is 2 times the "X" dimension. (.02
0" or .030").=0ARegardless I had a very lengthy discussion with Caleb about
this because I have 2 airplanes in my shop that will require over sized bo
lts.=0ACaleb told me to "avoid over sizing to 3/8 if at all possible."=0AHi
s reason for this is that at 3/8 the minimum edge distance becomes dangerou
sly close.=0A=0AMy experience with sourcing the oversize bolts is that they
are very rare and very expensive.=0AI sourced certified bolts @ $40 each.
=0AI was lucky to find some surplus bolts without certification papers for
$10 each and so I bought all they had. Unfortunately this still is not enou
gh to complete both airplanes. so the search continues.=0A=0AJust because t
he animal exists doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to hunt! Or that
you will bag one =0A=0AFor what its worth:=0AA 2 flute drill will produce a
hole with 3 corners.=0AA 3 flute drill will produce a hole with 4 corners.
=0AA 4 flute drill will produce a hole with 5 corners.=0Aand so on.=0AWith
each additional flute the corners decrease in depth.=0Athe formula is N+1 (
N=number of flutes).=0AI learned this in my first week as an apprentice w
ith the IAM (International Aerospace Workers & Machinists Union) =0AI think
this is covered in the Machinery's Hand book as well?=0A=0A--------=0ABrad
y McCormick=0APoulsbo, WA=0Awww.magnificentmachine.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead t
his topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2
====0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (None
in the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything
from 10 lb lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50 mm apart, loose spa
r bolts, bottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And
non of these failed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolt
s broke or were the cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first
bolt hole but the bolts remained. Now as a matter of engineering of cours
e the holes should be reamed if at all possible but remember there are tho
usands of aircraft flying that have drilled spar bolts and are safe. Zeni
th once told us alittle loose is ok but not sloppy but after what has happ
ened every thing has to be technically correct. I use a reamer but wouldn'
t think one minute about drilling my own spars with a drill bit because I
know I can do it correctly and I now believe the spar and center section
wasn't the problem to begin with and after seeing the sloppy building of
some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I believe and and have alw
ays believed flutter is the most likely reason for the failures.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 3:54 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
m>
Gentlemen,
The part #'s for the over sized bolts are:
AS6205-22x
AS6205-23x
he "X" in the part # specifies the over size.
lso there is a "y" for the next over size.
forget if the oversize increments are .010" or .015" for the "X" but the
"Y"
s 2 times the "X" dimension. (.020" or .030").
egardless I had a very lengthy discussion with Caleb about this because I
have
airplanes in my shop that will require over sized bolts.
aleb told me to "avoid over sizing to 3/8 if at all possible."
is reason for this is that at 3/8 the minimum edge distance becomes danger
ously
lose.
My experience with sourcing the oversize bolts is that they are very rare
and
ery expensive.
sourced certified bolts @ $40 each.
was lucky to find some surplus bolts without certification papers for $10
each
nd so I bought all they had. Unfortunately this still is not enough to com
plete
oth airplanes. so the search continues.
Just because the animal exists doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to
hunt!
r that you will bag one
For what its worth:
2 flute drill will produce a hole with 3 corners.
3 flute drill will produce a hole with 4 corners.
4 flute drill will produce a hole with 5 corners.
nd so on.
ith each additional flute the corners decrease in depth.
he formula is N+1 (N=number of flutes).
learned this in my first week as an apprentice with the IAM (Internationa
l
erospace Workers & Machinists Union)
think this is covered in the Machinery's Hand book as well?
--------
rady McCormick
oulsbo, WA
ww.magnificentmachine.com
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298532#298532
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I think Brady is trying to be the WW of Matronics. All technical and stuff
but wrong just the same.
But hey what do I know I just built 3 flying 601's.
That was my last pissing match post I have too many upgrades to do.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Pagan <bill.pagan@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
The "X" is .015 oversize and the "Y" is .030 oversize.
Bill Pagan
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 3:54:59 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
m>
Gentlemen,
The part #'s for the over sized bolts are:
NAS6205-22x
NAS6205-23x
the "X" in the part # specifies the over size.
Also there is a "y" for the next over size.
I forget if the oversize increments are .010" or .015" for the "X" but the
"Y" is 2 times the "X" dimension. (.020" or .030").
Regardless I had a very lengthy discussion with Caleb about this because
I have 2 airplanes in my shop that will require over sized bolts.
Caleb told me to "avoid over sizing to 3/8 if at all possible."
His reason for this is that at 3/8 the minimum edge distance becomes dange
rously close.
My experience with sourcing the oversize bolts is that they are very rare
and very expensive.
I sourced certified bolts @ $40 each.
I was lucky to find some surplus bolts without certification papers for $1
0 each and so I bought all they had. Unfortunately this still is not enoug
h to complete both airplanes. so the search continues.
Just because the animal exists doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to
hunt! Or that you will bag one
For what its worth:
A 2 flute drill will produce a hole with 3 corners.
A 3 flute drill will produce a hole with 4 corners.
A 4 flute drill will produce a hole with 5 corners.
and so on.
With each additional flute the corners decrease in depth.
the formula is N+1 (N=number of flutes).
I learned this in my first week as an apprentice with the IAM (Internation
al Aerospace Workers & Machinists Union)
I think this is covered in the Machinery's Hand book as well?
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopsp; -Matt Dr===
=========
========================
===========
-= - The Zenith601-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
========================
===========
Message 8
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| Subject: | Purpose of bottom cap angle 6 ZU1-5 |
Ok
I give up
what is the purpose of this part? and why is it important to have it there if you
have the newer 3 nose rib design?
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298539#298539
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Purpose of bottom cap angle 6 ZU1-5 |
I think that's a question for Caleb. They had 2 of them in there until I
called and told him the other one couldn't be installed because of the access
hole so they omitted it. The wings with 4 ribs don't get them. So it might
just be to make up for the 4th rib.
Jeff
In a message dated 5/22/2010 4:15:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "chris Sinfield"
<chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
Ok
I give up
what is the purpose of this part? and why is it important to have it there
if you have the newer 3 nose rib design?
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298539#298539
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Thanks for the part numbers. I assume that is for the bolt only and the nut will
have a different equally complex part number.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298546#298546
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| Subject: | Oops! A6 Rivet question |
I removed the top skin on my right wing today. Because of some pesky stems that
protruded too high I had trouble with a few rivets, resulting in some very slightly
enlarged or out of round holes.
I know that in this case others have installed A6 rivets. My question is, did
you use countersunk or dome head? If you used countersunk rivets did you pull
them with the nosepiece ground for the A5 rivet or make a new one?
Thanks!
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Actually, no. The nut is the standard nut for a AN5. The threads are the
same size just the shank is oversized.
Floyd Wilkes
601XL flying after upgrade.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chuck960
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:12 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
Thanks for the part numbers. I assume that is for the bolt only and the nut
will have a different equally complex part number.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298546#298546
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I have a set of adjustable size reamers turned by hand in a tap chuck. I started
with slight under size holes and slowly worked my way up to where the spar bolts
were a tight push fit. The adjustable reamers have a very slight taper so
the end fits in the under size hole. You run the reamer all the way through so
it doesn't leave a tapered hole.
--------
Louis W. Ott
601XL beginner Quick Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298557#298557
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
Tim,
one of the airplanes I am working on needed some A6 rivets.
I used the counter sunk style and made a new tip for the rivet gun.
If you use an automatic center punch to knock the mandrels down before you drill
you will need fewer A6 rivets.
I have posted a Blog on the Zenith Aero site entitled:
CH601XL Up Grades with Magnificent Machine LLC (tricks of the trade)
http://www.zenith.aero/profiles/blogs/ch601xl-upgrades-with
there might be some useful info in there, specifically about tooling for this project.
Cheers,
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298558#298558
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
>
> The "X" is .015 oversize and the "Y" is .030 oversize.
>
> Bill Pagan
Thank you Bill,
That had slipped my mind and my coffee had not kicked in yet. :)
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298560#298560
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