Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:53 AM - Re: Purpose of bottom cap angle 6 ZU1-5 (chris Sinfield)
2. 03:49 AM - Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question ()
3. 06:33 AM - Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question (PatrickW)
4. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question (Paul Mulwitz)
5. 08:12 AM - Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question (Tim Juhl)
6. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
7. 12:00 PM - Re: upgrade question (Brady)
8. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Rick Lindstrom)
9. 01:02 PM - Re: upgrade question (Brady)
10. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
11. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (Bill Pagan)
12. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: upgrade question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
13. 07:01 PM - Re: slider canopy (Ronald Steele)
14. 07:21 PM - Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question (w8n2bup)
15. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: slider canopy (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Purpose of bottom cap angle 6 ZU1-5 |
thanks
yep
I have an access hole in the next section as well.
I guess I will have to ask..
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298564#298564
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
TIM- On the rivets that have stems that keep you from drilling and cause the
drill to go off-center and make a mess- Use a center punch and a light
hammer and try to drive the stem back into yhe opposte end . Then try
drilling the rivet hear off. Sometimes it takes a few tries to drive the
rivet center in. Be carefull you don't bend or dent the aluminum skin. I did
have to use a few #6 rivets a couple years ago when I opened the leading
edge on both wings to take out the two aux. tanks but don't remember which
pulling head I used.
Presently, I have both wings off with the topskins removed along with both
leading edge skins. Also, the center section srar is out. I have stripped
both spars fron the wings for easier handling. I have decided bolt yhe new
heavy angles onto the spars after trying unsucessfully to rivet. The left
wing will be closed and finished in about a week or two. Then comes the
right wing and then the center spar and fuselage work. Looks like an all
summer job. If you get a chance take a trip down and see my slow progress.
ROY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:13 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Oops! A6 Rivet question
>
> I removed the top skin on my right wing today. Because of some pesky
> stems that protruded too high I had trouble with a few rivets, resulting
> in some very slightly enlarged or out of round holes.
>
> I know that in this case others have installed A6 rivets. My question is,
> did you use countersunk or dome head? If you used countersunk rivets did
> you pull them with the nosepiece ground for the A5 rivet or make a new
> one?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tim
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on fuselage
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298547#298547
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
Tim Juhl wrote:
> I know that in this case others have installed A6 rivets. My question is, did
you use countersunk or dome head? If you used countersunk rivets did you pull
them with the nosepiece ground for the A5 rivet or make a new one?
I used A6 rivets that I bought from Zenith. They are the countersunk type, just
like the A4's and A5's we already use, just a little bigger. I bought a bigger
hand riveter and ground out one of the nosepieces that came with it.
For removing the pre-existing rivets, I used one of those $3 "spring punches".
I ground down the tip so it could fit into the holes in the rivets. For each
rivet I would punch down the stem, and then using a drill bit *larger* than the
existing rivet, I would carefully drill into the rivet head until it popped
off (without touching the underlying skin or enlarging the existing hole). Then
most rivets could be pushed out the rest of the way with a second pop from
the spring punch. Stubborn ones got drilled out with a smaller drill so as to
not enlarge the existing hole.
A4's are harder to remove than A5's, as A4's more often tend to "spin". To get
around that, I carefully drill into their heads at an acute angle until the heads
come off.
It took a while, but I've got one wing just about done now. By far the biggest
problem I've had is "garage rash" as these skins are taking a beating and getting
all scratched no matter how careful I am. I want to polish my skins, but
I don't know how it will look with some of the scratches I can already see.
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298574#298574
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
Hi Patrick,
I have found a slightly different approach for removing rivets. I do
nothing before drilling, and use the same size drill bit as the final rivet
hole. I drill very slowly - using a variable speed battery powered drill.
Most of the time the head starts to spin when the drill bit reaches the skin
and I am finished. In cases where the stem gets in the way the drill bit
goes off center and I stop before the bit reaches the skin. Then I use a
normal wood chisel and mallet to tap off the remaining part of the rivet
head. With the rivet partially drilled this goes very easily.
I have done a lot of wood work over the years, so it is easy for me to
position the wood chisel so it doesn't damage the skin. For less
experienced wood workers, I would recommend a little practice in partially
drilled rivets in scrap pieces.
After the rivet head is removed, I use a slightly smaller pin punch and
mallet to remove the remains from the hole. Some times this makes a bit of
a dent in the skin, but this is easily removed with auto body dolly and
hammer.
------
For removing the pre-existing rivets, I used one of those $3 "spring
punches". I ground down the tip so it could fit into the holes in the
rivets. For each rivet I would punch down the stem, and then using a drill
bit *larger* than the existing rivet, I would carefully drill into the rivet
head until it popped off (without touching the underlying skin or enlarging
the existing hole). Then most rivets could be pushed out the rest of the
way with a second pop from the spring punch. Stubborn ones got drilled out
with a smaller drill so as to not enlarge the existing hole.
------
I don't think you need to worry too much about scratches impacting your
polishing. The polishing process is designed to remove them. If you have
deep scratches you should probably smooth them out with emery cloth, but the
shallow ones will be polished out without much extra effort.
-----
It took a while, but I've got one wing just about done now. By far the
biggest problem I've had is "garage rash" as these skins are taking a
beating and getting all scratched no matter how careful I am. I want to
polish my skins, but I don't know how it will look with some of the
scratches I can already see.
--------
Paul
XL installing changes
N773PM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
I used a spring loaded center punch to attempt to drive out the pin with no success.
Also tried a punch and a few gentle taps from a hammer... no luck. Even
worse, the top of the pin was broken on an angle resulting in the drill trying
to walk off center. I ended up using a #40 drill to start it while holding
the drill centered (as best as I could get it) with a drilling cup. This happened
only in the A5 rivets and to about 6 in the top skin.
Thanks for the advice!
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Tearing wings apart for modification
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298588#298588
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
If your aircraft isn't painted you can use a wood chisel to remove all riv
ets and leave no dents and it makes the tail removal much easier also.
I use a chisel to remove the solid rivet heads then just punch out the sho
p end with a punch and hammer over a vise. I have gotten to the point that
I can disassemble the center spar and remove all the rivets in 30 minutes
. I do the same with the wing spar but I have to drill half way thru them
and use my 2X to punch the shop end out.
If you use a chisel you need to smooth the bottom so it doesn't scratch or
gouge the aluminum.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Juhl <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 11:11 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question
I used a spring loaded center punch to attempt to drive out the pin with
no
uccess. Also tried a punch and a few gentle taps from a hammer... no luck
.
ven worse, the top of the pin was broken on an angle resulting in the dril
l
rying to walk off center. I ended up using a #40 drill to start it while
olding the drill centered (as best as I could get it) with a drilling cup.
his happened only in the A5 rivets and to about 6 in the top skin.
Thanks for the advice!
Tim
--------
_____________
FII
hamp L16A flying
odiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
earing wings apart for modification
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298588#298588
========================
===========
-= - The Zenith601-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
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-
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========================
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-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
> For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (None in
the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything from 10
lb lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50mm apart, loose spar bolts, bottomed
out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of these failed.
And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause
of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts remained.
Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be reamed if
at all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that have
drilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok but
not sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically correct.
I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my own spars
with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now believe the spar
and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and after seeing the sloppy
building of some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I believe and
and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for the failures.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
> --
Jeff,
I want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not failed yet,
doesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be thought
of as safe.
Encouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy building practices
is irresponsible at best.
The last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's falling out of
the sky.
That would cause serious trouble for everyone.
Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on your own plane
only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut on their
airplanes.
Why would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than you do your
own?
The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill bit that is
some how good enough with out reaming, when the directions specifically call for
a Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons behind the
process.
>
> And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause
of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts remained.
>
This statement says it all:
Apparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?
No one is concerned that the bolts are breaking.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that hole was because
perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose and it was able
to work the hole open further until it finally broke?
Or maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you mentioned earlier that
hadn't failed yet but finally did?
The difference between a professional and an armature is that a professional knows
enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego long enough
to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.
Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your technical experience
and knowledge.
The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not make me rest
easy, it causes me great concern.
I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to teach and
learn.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298613#298613
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Hey, Brady.
Not to be a picky twitch, but the word "armature" in your post to Jeff describes
a thing that spins around with a lot of motion, but in the end, goes nowhere.
"Amateur", on the other hand, is a thing that expends a lot of energy but ends
up with little to show for it.
Come to think of it, you're original usage may be correct after all...
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
>Sent: May 23, 2010 3:00 PM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
>
>
>
>afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
>> For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (None in
the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything from 10
lb lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50mm apart, loose spar bolts, bottomed
out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of these failed.
And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the
cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts
remained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be reamed
if at all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that have
drilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok but
not sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically correct.
I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my own spars
with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now believe the
spar and center section wasn't the problem to begi!
> n with and after seeing the sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't
break apart I believe and and have always believed flutter is the most likely
reason for the failures.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> --
>
>
>Jeff,
>I want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not failed yet,
doesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be thought
of as safe.
>Encouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy building practices
is irresponsible at best.
>The last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's falling out of
the sky.
>That would cause serious trouble for everyone.
>
>Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on your own plane
only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut on their
airplanes.
>Why would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than you do your
own?
>
>The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill bit that is
some how good enough with out reaming, when the directions specifically call
for a Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons behind the
process.
>
>
>>
>> And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause
of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts remained.
>>
>
>
>This statement says it all:
>Apparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?
>No one is concerned that the bolts are breaking.
>Did it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that hole was because
perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose and it was able
to work the hole open further until it finally broke?
>Or maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you mentioned earlier
that hadn't failed yet but finally did?
>
>The difference between a professional and an armature is that a professional knows
enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego long enough
to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.
>
>Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your technical experience
and knowledge.
>
>The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not make me rest
easy, it causes me great concern.
>
>I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to teach and
learn.
>
>--------
>Brady McCormick
>Poulsbo, WA
>www.magnificentmachine.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298613#298613
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
tigerrick(at)mindspring.c wrote:
> Hey, Brady.
>
> Not to be a picky twitch, but the word "armature" in your post to Jeff describes
a thing that spins around with a lot of motion, but in the end, goes nowhere.
>
> "Amateur", on the other hand, is a thing that expends a lot of energy but ends
up with little to show for it.
>
> Come to think of it, you're original usage may be correct after all...
>
> Rick
>
>
> --
Spell check works in mysterious ways....
My intent was in fact "Amateur"
I'll try to proof read before posting.
Thanks,
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298622#298622
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Brady
I guess I could talk about your new Corvair crank that came apart but you
are the expert. When you get your first airplane flying come talk to me
but until then you sir are the amateur. And it's funny that only you and
Ron have had any problems with my post and could that have anything to do
with the Corvair?
Well enough time wasted on a wanna be airplane builder I am gonna go flyin
g in my 601 with a corvair now.
O BTW have fun cooling that 701 with a Corvair engine but what do I know
right mine run cooler than any with all the unsafe parts I designed and
BTW you copied.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 3:00 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
m>
fterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (Non
e in
he dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything from
10 lb
ead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50=C3=AF=C2=C2=BDmm apart, loose
spar bolts,
ottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of th
ese
ailed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were
the
ause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bol
ts
emained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be ream
ed if
t all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that ha
ve
rilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok
but
ot sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically
orrect. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my own
pars with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now belie
ve
he spar and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and after seei
ng
he sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I bel
ieve
nd and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for the fail
ures.
>
Jeff
--
eff,
want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not failed
yet,
oesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be
hought of as safe.
ncouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy building
ractices is irresponsible at best.
he last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's falling out
of
he sky.
hat would cause serious trouble for everyone.
Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on your
own
lane only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut
on
heir airplanes.
hy would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than you do
your
wn?
The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill bit tha
t is
ome how good enough with out reaming, when the directions specifically cal
l for
Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons behind the
rocess.
And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the
cause
f wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts
emained.
his statement says it all:
pparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?
o one is concerned that the bolts are breaking.
id it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that hole was
ecause perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose and it
was
ble to work the hole open further until it finally broke?
r maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you mentioned earli
er
hat hadn't failed yet but finally did?
The difference between a professional and an armature is that a profession
al
nows enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego long
nough to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.
Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your technic
al
xperience and knowledge.
The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not make me
rest
asy, it causes me great concern.
I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to teach
and
earn.
--------
rady McCormick
oulsbo, WA
ww.magnificentmachine.com
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298613#298613
========================
===========
-= - The Zenith601-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
========================
===========
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
========================
===========
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
I have a problem with you guys bringing your private argument to this forum
.- Give it a rest for the benefit of all of us.=0A-Bill Pagan =0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "afterfxllc@aol.com" <
afterfxllc@aol.com>=0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, May 23,
2010 6:27:00 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question=0A=0AB
rady=0A=0AI guess I could talk about your new Corvair crank that came apart
but you are the expert. When you get your first airplane flying come talk
to me but until then you sir are the amateur. And it's funny that only you
and Ron have had any problems with my post and could that have anything to
do with the Corvair? =0AWell enough time wasted on a wanna be airplane buil
der I am gonna go flying in my 601 with a corvair now.=0A=0AO BTW have fun
cooling that 701 with a Corvair engine but what do I know right mine run co
oler than any with-all the unsafe parts I designed and BTW you copied.=0A
=0AJeff=0A-=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Brady <brady@magnific
entmachine.com>=0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, May 23, 201
0 3:00 pm=0ASubject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question=0A=0A=0A--> Zenit
h601-List message posted by: "Brady" <brady@magnificentmachine.com>=0A=0A
=0Aafterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:=0A> For what it is worth I have done 4 upgr
ades and built 3 flying 601's (None in =0Athe dirt BTW) and I have taken ap
art 7 601's and have seen everything from 10 lb =0Alead shot bags in the wi
ngtip, wing AOA 50=EF=BDmm apart, loose spar bolts, =0Abottomed out spar
bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of these =0Afailed. An
d as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the =0Aca
use of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts
=0Aremained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be
reamed if =0Aat all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft f
lying that have =0Adrilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us al
ittle loose is ok but =0Anot sloppy but after what has happened every thing
has to be technically =0Acorrect. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one mi
nute about drilling my own =0Aspars with a drill bit because I know I can d
o it correctly and I now believe =0Athe spar and center section wasn't the
problem to begin with and after seeing =0Athe sloppy building of some of th
ese aircraft that didn't break apart I believe =0Aand and have always belie
ved flutter is the most likely reason for the failures. =0A=0A> =0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> Jeff=0A> =0A> --=0A=0A=0AJeff,=0AI want to point o
ut that just because a substandard assembly has not failed yet, =0Adoesn't
mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be =0Athough
t of as safe.=0AEncouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of
sloppy building =0Apractices is irresponsible at best.=0AThe last thing the
601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's falling out of =0Athe sky.=0A
That would cause serious trouble for everyone.=0A=0AYour willingness to ope
nly admit that you would cut such corners on your own =0Aplane only makes p
eople wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut on =0Atheir airplan
es. =0AWhy would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than y
ou do your =0Aown?=0A=0AThe fact that you think you can drill a hole with a
2 fluted drill bit that is =0Asome how good enough with out reaming, when
the directions specifically call for =0Aa Reamed hole, only proves that you
don't understand the reasons behind the =0Aprocess.=0A=0A=0A> =0A> And as
a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause =0Ao
f wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts =0Ar
emained. =0A> =0A=0A=0AThis statement says it all:=0AApparently you don't u
nderstand why the bolts are being over sized?=0ANo one is concerned that th
e bolts are breaking. =0ADid it ever occur to you that the reason that spar
broke at that hole was =0Abecause perhaps the fit between the bolt and the
hole was too loose and it was =0Aable to work the hole open further until
it finally broke?=0AOr maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques
you mentioned earlier =0Athat hadn't failed yet but finally did?=0A=0AThe
difference between a professional and an armature is that a professional
=0Aknows enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego l
ong =0Aenough to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.=0A=0AYour
personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your technical =0A
experience and knowledge.=0A=0AThe fact that you have built 3 flying 601s a
nd upgraded 4 does not make me rest =0Aeasy, it causes me great concern.=0A
=0AI don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to tea
ch and =0Alearn.=0A=0A--------=0ABrady McCormick=0APoulsbo, WA=0Awww.magnif
icentmachine.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://for
ums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298613#298613=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
============0At" target=_blank>http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List===============
======================0Atp://foru
ms.matronics.com=0A==================
===================0A_blank>http://www.
matronics.com/contribution================
=====================0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
-========================
====================0A=0A=0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: upgrade question |
Your right Bill, See what a simple test can turn into? Thats why most don'
t post because other can't wait to flame you but I have been on these list
s since building RV's and they are all the same. I said I was done with th
e pissing match but they can't let it rest.
So now I am done with the pissing match again. LOL
BTW are you going with push pull tubes? The ones I installed work great bu
t it isn't a quick conversion as you know but when I talked to Sebastian
about them he seemed to like the way I went about doing it.
We are Flying 962T again tomorrow and that will end the 5 hour Phase 1 and
I think Thomas is coming to pick it up this week.
I am going to install a Van's slider canopy in my next 601 that I am build
ing now along with a Corvair and push pull tubes. Believe it or not the 60
1 is 20 mm wider than the RV-7 and I think the only thing that I need to
modify is the turtle deck as the RV has bulkheads that are flat at the to
p and rounds as it nears the tail.
Have a good one
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Pagan <bill.pagan@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 7:03 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
I have a problem with you guys bringing your private argument to this foru
m. Give it a rest for the benefit of all of us.
Bill Pagan
From: "afterfxllc@aol.com" <afterfxllc@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 6:27:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
Brady
I guess I could talk about your new Corvair crank that came apart but you
are the expert. When you get your first airplane flying come talk to me
but until then you sir are the amateur. And it's funny that only you and
Ron have had any problems with my post and could that have anything to do
with the Corvair?
Well enough time wasted on a wanna be airplane builder I am gonna go flyin
g in my 601 with a corvair now.
O BTW have fun cooling that 701 with a Corvair engine but what do I know
right mine run cooler than any with all the unsafe parts I designed and
BTW you copied.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 3:00 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
m>
fterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (Non
e in
he dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything from
10 lb
ead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50=C3=AF=C2=C2=BDmm apart, loose
spar bolts,
ottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of th
ese
ailed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were
the
ause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bol
ts
emained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be ream
ed if
t all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that ha
ve
rilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok
but
ot sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically
orrect. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my own
pars with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now belie
ve
he spar and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and after seei
ng
he sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I bel
ieve
nd and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for the fail
ures.
>
Jeff
--
eff,
want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not failed
yet,
oesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be
hought of as safe.
ncouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy building
ractices is irresponsible at best.
he last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's falling out
of
he sky.
hat would cause serious trouble for everyone.
Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on your
own
lane only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut
on
heir airplanes.
hy would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than you do
your
wn?
The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill bit tha
t is
ome how good enough with out reaming, when the directions specifically cal
l for
Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons behind the
rocess.
And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the
cause
f wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts
emained.
his statement says it all:
pparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?
o one is concerned that the bolts are breaking.
id it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that hole was
ecause perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose and it
was
ble to work the hole open further until it finally broke?
r maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you mentioned earli
er
hat hadn't failed yet but finally did?
The difference between a professional and an armature is that a profession
al
nows enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego long
nough to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.
Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your technic
al
xperience and knowledge.
The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not make me
rest
asy, it causes me great concern.
I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to teach
and
earn.
--------
rady McCormick
oulsbo, WA
ww.magnificentmachine.com
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298613#298613
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Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: slider canopy |
An RV has pretty much straight sides where the 601/50 has a pretty
good flare front to back. How are you planning to have the narrow
front part slide over the wider back part? I've been thinking about
this, and it seem like the canopy would have to lift up, a lot, more
than on an RV, before sliding. For what it's worth, the 601 also has
more head and leg room the than an RV7 (only one I've attempted to get
into - and failed).
I really hope you do this, I'd love to see your solution.
Ron
On May 23, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
> Your right Bill, See what a simple test can turn into? Thats why
> most don't post because other can't wait to flame you but I have
> been on these lists since building RV's and they are all the same. I
> said I was done with the pissing match but they can't let it rest.
>
> So now I am done with the pissing match again. LOL
>
> BTW are you going with push pull tubes? The ones I installed work
> great but it isn't a quick conversion as you know but when I talked
> to Sebastian about them he seemed to like the way I went about doing
> it.
>
> We are Flying 962T again tomorrow and that will end the 5 hour Phase
> 1 and I think Thomas is coming to pick it up this week.
> I am going to install a Van's slider canopy in my next 601 that I am
> building now along with a Corvair and push pull tubes. Believe it or
> not the 601 is 20 mm wider than the RV-7 and I think the only thing
> that I need to modify is the turtle deck as the RV has bulkheads
> that are flat at the top and rounds as it nears the tail.
>
> Have a good one
>
> Jeff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Pagan <bill.pagan@yahoo.com>
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 7:03 pm
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
>
> I have a problem with you guys bringing your private argument to
> this forum. Give it a rest for the benefit of all of us.
>
> Bill Pagan
>
>
> From: "afterfxllc@aol.com" <afterfxllc@aol.com>
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 6:27:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
>
> Brady
>
> I guess I could talk about your new Corvair crank that came apart
> but you are the expert. When you get your first airplane flying come
> talk to me but until then you sir are the amateur. And it's funny
> that only you and Ron have had any problems with my post and could
> that have anything to do with the Corvair?
> Well enough time wasted on a wanna be airplane builder I am gonna go
> flying in my 601 with a corvair now.
>
> O BTW have fun cooling that 701 with a Corvair engine but what do I
> know right mine run cooler than any with all the unsafe parts I
> designed and BTW you copied.
>
> Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 3:00 pm
> Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
>
<brady@magnificentmachine.com
> >
>
>
> afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
> > For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying
> 601's (None in
> the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen
> everything from 10 lb
> lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50=EF=BDmm apart, loose
spar
> bolts,
> bottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And
> non of these
> failed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke
> or were the
> cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but
> the bolts
> remained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should
> be reamed if
> at all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying
> that have
> drilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us alittle loose
> is ok but
> not sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be
> technically
> correct. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling
> my own
> spars with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I
> now believe
> the spar and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and
> after seeing
> the sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't break
> apart I believe
> and and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for
> the failures.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > --
>
>
> Jeff,
> I want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not
> failed yet,
> doesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some
> how be
> thought of as safe.
> Encouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy
> building
> practices is irresponsible at best.
> The last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's
> falling out of
> the sky.
> That would cause serious trouble for everyone.
>
> Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on
> your own
> plane only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing
> to cut on
> their airplanes.
> Why would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than
> you do your
> own?
>
> The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill
> bit that is
> some how good enough with out reaming, when the directions
> specifically call for
> a Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons
> behind the
> process.
>
>
> >
> > And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or
> were the cause
> of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the
> bolts
> remained.
> >
>
>
> This statement says it all:
> Apparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?
> No one is concerned that the bolts are breaking.
> Did it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that
> hole was
> because perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose
> and it was
> able to work the hole open further until it finally broke?
> Or maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you
> mentioned earlier
> that hadn't failed yet but finally did?
>
> The difference between a professional and an armature is that a
> professional
> knows enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his
> ego long
> enough to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.
>
> Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your
> technical
> experience and knowledge.
>
> The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not
> make me rest
> easy, it causes me great concern.
>
> I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to
> teach and
> learn.
>
> --------
> Brady McCormick
> Poulsbo, WA
> www.magnificentmachine.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298613#298613
>
>
> ========================
===========
> t"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List===
=======
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution==========
>
>
> ========================
===========
> t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
> ========================
===========
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> ========================
===========
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
===========
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Oops! A6 Rivet question |
I too, spent 2 years occasionally needing to remove a rivet only to run into the
stem and over sizing the hole. Then I heard from Mr. Garrett on the use of a
chisel. I absolutely could not believe I had never heard of this technique before.
I use a half inch wood chisel and have removed several hundred rivets now
and everyone of them left the hole completely untouched. The head just shears
right off and the back of the rivet can be pulled out with a pair of dikes or
pliers or if necessary, a light tap of a punch. I do not have any painted parts
but with the flat side polished a little, it leaves very little in the way
of a mark. In addition, you can get to any head at any angle unlike a drill.
I don't believe I will ever drill out another rivet. Try it. You just won't believe
it !
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298665#298665
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: slider canopy |
We have a RV-7 in the other hanger and I have done all the measurements an
d
it works out but the bulkheads have to be flattened at the turtle deck an
d
gradually round as it goes back.
Jeff
In a message dated 5/23/2010 10:02:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rsteele@rjsit.com writes:
An RV has pretty much straight sides where the 601/50 has a pretty good
flare front to back. How are you planning to have the narrow front part
slide over the wider back part? I've been thinking about this, and it se
em
like the canopy would have to lift up, a lot, more than on an RV, before
sliding. For what it's worth, the 601 also has more head and leg room th
e than
an RV7 (only one I've attempted to get into - and failed).
I really hope you do this, I'd love to see your solution.
Ron
On May 23, 2010, at 9:25 PM, _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailt
o:Afterfxllc@aol.com) wrote:
Your right Bill, See what a simple test can turn into? Thats why most
don't post because other can't wait to flame you but I have been on these
lists
since building RV's and they are all the same. I said I was done with the
pissing match but they can't let it rest.
So now I am done with the pissing match again. LOL
BTW are you going with push pull tubes? The ones I installed work great
but it isn't a quick conversion as you know but when I talked to Sebastian
about them he seemed to like the way I went about doing it.
We are Flying 962T again tomorrow and that will end the 5 hour Phase 1 an
d
I think Thomas is coming to pick it up this week.
I am going to install a Van's slider canopy in my next 601 that I am
building now along with a Corvair and push pull tubes. Believe it or not
the 601
is 20 mm wider than the RV-7 and I think the only thing that I need to
modify is the turtle deck as the RV has bulkheads that are flat at the top
and
rounds as it nears the tail.
Have a good one
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Pagan <_bill.pagan@yahoo.com_ (mailto:bill.pagan@yahoo.com) >
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 7:03 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
I have a problem with you guys bringing your private argument to this
forum. Give it a rest for the benefit of all of us.
Bill Pagan
____________________________________
From: "_afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:afterfxllc@aol.com) "
<_afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:afterfxllc@aol.com) >
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 6:27:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
Brady
I guess I could talk about your new Corvair crank that came apart but you
are the expert. When you get your first airplane flying come talk to me
but
until then you sir are the amateur. And it's funny that only you and Ron
have had any problems with my post and could that have anything to do wit
h
the Corvair?
Well enough time wasted on a wanna be airplane builder I am gonna go
flying in my 601 with a corvair now.
O BTW have fun cooling that 701 with a Corvair engine but what do I know
right mine run cooler than any with all the unsafe parts I designed and
BTW
you copied.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <_brady@magnificentmachine.com_
(mailto:brady@magnificentmachine.com) >
Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 3:00 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: upgrade question
<_brady@magnificentmachine.com_ (mailto:brady@magnificentmachine.com) >
afterfxllc(at)_aol.com_ (http://aol.com/) wrote:
> For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's
(None in
the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything fro
m
10 lb
lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50=EF=BDmm apart, loose spar
bolts,
bottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of
these
failed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or
were the
cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the
bolts
remained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be
reamed if
at all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that
have
drilled spar bolts and are safe. Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok
but
not sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically
correct. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my
own
spars with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now
believe
the spar and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and after
seeing
the sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I
believe
and and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for the
failures.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
> --
Jeff,
I want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not
failed yet,
doesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be
thought of as safe.
Encouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy buildin
g
practices is irresponsible at best.
The last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's falling
out of
the sky.
That would cause serious trouble for everyone.
Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on your
own
plane only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut
on
their airplanes.
Why would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than you do
your
own?
The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill bit
that is
some how good enough with out reaming, when the directions specifically
call for
a Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons behind
the
process.
>
> And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the
cause
of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts
remained.
>
This statement says it all:
Apparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?
No one is concerned that the bolts are breaking.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that hole was
because perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose and
it
was
able to work the hole open further until it finally broke?
Or maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you mentioned
earlier
that hadn't failed yet but finally did?
The difference between a professional and an armature is that a
professional
knows enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego
long
enough to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.
Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your
technical
experience and knowledge.
The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not make
me
rest
easy, it causes me great concern.
I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to teac
h
and
learn.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
_www.magnificentmachine.com_ (http://www.magnificentmachine.com/)
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