Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:01 AM - Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (chris Sinfield)
2. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Stephen R. Look)
3. 07:36 AM - Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 (AZFlyer)
4. 08:59 AM - Re: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 (Floyd Wilkes)
5. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Ron Steele)
6. 10:56 AM - Re: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 (AZFlyer)
7. 10:58 AM - Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Sabrina)
8. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Ron Steele)
9. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Karl Polifka)
10. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Ron Steele)
11. 02:38 PM - Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 (AZFlyer)
12. 02:47 PM - 601 Down (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net)
13. 03:11 PM - Re: 601 Down (Bryan Martin)
14. 03:29 PM - Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Sabrina)
15. 03:36 PM - Re: 601 Down (Craig Payne)
16. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 (Floyd Wilkes)
17. 04:54 PM - Re: Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 (lwhitlow)
18. 05:41 PM - Re: 601 Down (Mitch Hodges)
19. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Paul Mulwitz)
20. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Karl Polifka)
21. 06:49 PM - Re: Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 (Jeff)
22. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Karl Polifka)
23. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Paul Mulwitz)
24. 07:47 PM - Re: Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
well I am glad I did not spend my $4000 going to Oshkosh, if all we can talk about
is the 1200vs 1320 limits please..
tell me something else was worth the trip???
What happened at the BBQ?
did Dynon have any specials?
is there going to be a 650C model???
Chris..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306789#306789
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
As was going to remain silent on any more of this but I have to
comment on this statement.
Nothing has been proved to show that CH has made any mistake. You
pointed me to a link in the FAA report to read so I went back to it again.
"FAA analysis estimated that the wing design loads were 20 to 25
percent too low"
Maybe I'm reading this too literally, but to me, engineering is a
pretty exact thing. I take this much of this type of stuff and then
apply this much force to it and it breaks or it doesn't.
When critiquing someone else's work, with livelihoods and reputations
in the balance, it don't expect to see the word "estimate" anywhere.
I'm sure Chris & company were surprised at the FAA finding. To my
knowledge, he still doesn't agree with them.
Steve
At 06:30 PM 7/29/2010, you wrote:
>
>Engineers make mistakes, great engineers own up to their mistakes.
Steve Look
Monticello, IL
www.ilrt66.com
"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"
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| Subject: | Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 |
After installing the additional "aileron control stop" I find my stick can now
only travel approximately 1/2" for aileron control. Is this what others have found
or will I need to cut a great deal of material from the edges of the 50 mm
slot?
Have not connected the aileron cables yet... just curious. Hardly seems like enough
travel!
Caleb tells me amount is different for everybody...depends on the installation...?
Thanks for feedback,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306808#306808
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| Subject: | Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 |
Mike,
You will need to enlarge the slot.
Here is what I did. After the ailerons are rigged, I put the stop in place
but did not fasten it down. Push the stick to get the aileron to one stop
on the wing at the aileron. The new control stop will slide over as the
stick moves. Measure how far it slid then make the slot that much wider.
Repeat for other side.
Floyd Wilkes
601XL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AZFlyer
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:34 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1
After installing the additional "aileron control stop" I find my stick can
now only travel approximately 1/2" for aileron control. Is this what others
have found or will I need to cut a great deal of material from the edges of
the 50 mm slot?
Have not connected the aileron cables yet... just curious. Hardly seems like
enough travel!
Caleb tells me amount is different for everybody...depends on the
installation...?
Thanks for feedback,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306808#306808
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
I think the legal profession has seen to it that owning up to mistakes
is no longer a viable option for an engineer,
whether great or not. Nor for any other professional for that matter.
If you really believe that CH thinks there is/was a problem with XL,
then look no farther than your own parents' profession as the reason for
his denial. He may or may not have made a mistake, but he certainly
isn't that stupid. Even if he were willing to except personal
destruction, he would also be sacrificing the jobs of his sons, everyone
who works for a related company, and would no longer be able to support
his current customers. Perhaps you think all that damage would be
justified. I think that sort of damage is one reason this country is
falling to pieces.
You clearly have the ability to be a great engineer. The greater the
engineer, the greater consequences of a mistake. I guess any you make
are likely to be duesies. Would you take all your family and friends
down with you?
Ron
On 07/29/2010 07:30 PM, Sabrina wrote:
> Engineers make mistakes, great engineers own up to their mistakes.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306736#306736
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 |
Thanks Floyd, however, I have riveted in the piece with the slot so I will need
to climb up through the access hole and cut away the material.
Appreciate your feedback. How much did you need to open up the 50mm slot?
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306828#306828
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
to save even one life, yes....
not fairing the struts was a mistake...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
There is a fix, whether needed or not. It's not about saving lives,
it's about satisfying your curiosity and ego.
As far as saving lives: As an exercise, dress in some crappy cloths and
try to get medical care with no money and no insurance. Now pretend you
are pregnant. There are more ways to die than in plane crashes and
poverty has killed untold numbers through history. Putting people out
of work has real and deadly consequences. And make no mistake. If CH
cried mea culpa there where be nothing left any of the Zenith companies
long before the law suites ended.
I'm not making excuses for anyone here. If there is a safety problem
with a plane it should be fixed. But lawyers may well hinder the
process more than help. I'm also not knocking lawyers in general, but
there are enough confluences of bad lawyers, but judges, bad juries and
bad laws to do great damage.
Grow up. Get an education. Do the great things of which you seem to be
capable. Lose the ego and since of entitlement.
Ron
On 07/30/2010 01:58 PM, Sabrina wrote:
> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"<chicago2paris@msn.com>
>
> to save even one life, yes....
>
> not fairing the struts was a mistake...
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
Ron,
I seem to be missing some posts. What is this business about "fairing
struts"?
Karl
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron Steele" <rsteele@rjsit.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
>
> There is a fix, whether needed or not. It's not about saving lives, it's
> about satisfying your curiosity and ego.
> As far as saving lives: As an exercise, dress in some crappy cloths and
> try to get medical care with no money and no insurance. Now pretend you
> are pregnant. There are more ways to die than in plane crashes and
> poverty has killed untold numbers through history. Putting people out of
> work has real and deadly consequences. And make no mistake. If CH cried
> mea culpa there where be nothing left any of the Zenith companies long
> before the law suites ended.
>
> I'm not making excuses for anyone here. If there is a safety problem with
> a plane it should be fixed. But lawyers may well hinder the process more
> than help. I'm also not knocking lawyers in general, but there are enough
> confluences of bad lawyers, but judges, bad juries and bad laws to do
> great damage.
>
> Grow up. Get an education. Do the great things of which you seem to be
> capable. Lose the ego and since of entitlement.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On 07/30/2010 01:58 PM, Sabrina wrote:
>> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"<chicago2paris@msn.com>
>>
>> to save even one life, yes....
>>
>> not fairing the struts was a mistake...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
The fairer the struts, the better!
What little I saw of the design scared the bejesus out of me, but I'm no
AE and she apparently had them vetted by one, so that's it as far as I'm
concerned. Now it would be really interesting to get CH's unvarnished
opinion on those changes. He certainly didn't hold back in his opinion
on the LAA stuff.
Ron
On 07/30/2010 04:17 PM, Karl Polifka wrote:
> <jfowler120@verizon.net>
>
> Ron,
>
> I seem to be missing some posts. What is this business about "fairing
> struts"?
>
> Karl
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Ron Steele" <rsteele@rjsit.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:18 PM
> To: <zenith601-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
>
>>
>> There is a fix, whether needed or not. It's not about saving lives,
>> it's about satisfying your curiosity and ego.
>> As far as saving lives: As an exercise, dress in some crappy cloths
>> and try to get medical care with no money and no insurance. Now
>> pretend you are pregnant. There are more ways to die than in plane
>> crashes and poverty has killed untold numbers through history.
>> Putting people out of work has real and deadly consequences. And
>> make no mistake. If CH cried mea culpa there where be nothing left
>> any of the Zenith companies long before the law suites ended.
>>
>> I'm not making excuses for anyone here. If there is a safety problem
>> with a plane it should be fixed. But lawyers may well hinder the
>> process more than help. I'm also not knocking lawyers in general,
>> but there are enough confluences of bad lawyers, but judges, bad
>> juries and bad laws to do great damage.
>>
>> Grow up. Get an education. Do the great things of which you seem to
>> be capable. Lose the ego and since of entitlement.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/30/2010 01:58 PM, Sabrina wrote:
>>> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"<chicago2paris@msn.com>
>>>
>>> to save even one life, yes....
>>>
>>> not fairing the struts was a mistake...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306829#306829
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 |
Page 24 of the Installation Manual for the Jab 3300, last sentence says "Exhaust
Gas Temps. - Nominal 1202 F - 1382 F, measured 100mm from the exhaust manifold
flange."
Is that 100mm measured 1. "on the side of the pipe" 2. "on the outside curve
of the pipe" 3. "on the inside curve of the pipe" ? ...or does it matter?
Or should I just be consistent from pipe to pipe?
Thanks,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306854#306854
Message 12
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Does anyone have info on the 601 XL down in the north west.
http://www.kirotv.com/news/24441223/detail.html
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That appears to be an HDS, the wings appear to be too short any other model.
On Jul 30, 2010, at 5:46 PM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote:
> Does anyone have info on the 601 XL down in the north west.
>
>
> http://www.kirotv.com/news/24441223/detail.html
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.
do not archive.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
Ron, If that scares you, wait until I unveil my jet powered, blended wing flying
motorcycle! :O)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306860#306860
Message 15
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>From the Zenith list (which sometimes has useful posts):
According to the preliminary FAA accident report at
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/M_
0730_N.txt
the reg # is N18295 which is a 601HDS with a Subaru engine.
Sad, may Mr McDonald rest in peace.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: 601 Down
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
That appears to be an HDS, the wings appear to be too short any other model.
On Jul 30, 2010, at 5:46 PM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote:
> Does anyone have info on the 601 XL down in the north west.
>
>
> http://www.kirotv.com/news/24441223/detail.html
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.
do not archive.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1 |
Mike,
I bet with your new found rivet removal skill, you can remove the rivets in
short time.
I would think it difficult to expand the slot while riveted in place but
maybe you have a plan.
On mine, the left and right extensions were different. One was about 30 MM.
I made the stops on the wing so that the aileron would travel about .5
degree more than the new stop allows to ensure you cannot put too much
pressure on the cable.
Good luck
Floyd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AZFlyer
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:56 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrade Question: ref. 6-ZU-4-1
Thanks Floyd, however, I have riveted in the piece with the slot so I will
need to climb up through the access hole and cut away the material.
Appreciate your feedback. How much did you need to open up the 50mm slot?
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306828#306828
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 |
I went for the same location on each pipe I tried to measure 100 mm on the side
of the curve and then drew a band at that location. I then put the EGT probes
to the inside of the curve as best I could.
Larry
601XL B Will fly sometime in my lifetime.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306873#306873
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Some additional info, sorry should have cross posted this earlier
Article with photo is here:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/99574344.html
My prayers and condolences to the pilot and his family.
--------
Mitch Hodges
N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero
Wings Under Perpetual Construction
--------
Mitch Hodges
N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero
Wings Under Perpetual Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306877#306877
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
Hi Ron,
As a retired engineer I must side with Sabrina on this point.
It really is true that even the best engineers make mistakes. They are
humans and that is the nature of being human. The lawyers don't circle
simply because a human is human. They get active when they feel someone has
taken the wrong path in this kind of situation like CH is alleged to have
taken - try to talk your way out of the problem rather than acknowledging
the facts and working to fix a known problem.
I don't think that is what Sabrina has actually said. I got the message
from her posts that she thinks he doesn't feel there was a mistake and
honestly says that. He is simply wrong about that according to the
published FAA documents. The only legitimate conclusion we can reach from
all that is that CH and the FAA disagree.
None of these things would generate a successful lawsuit in my opinion. The
only real liability here would be the people who were actually injured could
try to claim it was CH's negligence that caused their loss. That would be
difficult to collect on even if it was completely true. We are talking
about experimental airplanes here and we all signed waivers of liability in
order to buy the plans.
I think it would be better if CH and all his sons made it very clear that
there really was a problem and the design change that they endorsed and
released to all owners fixes the problem. That would clear it all up for
all the owners and they would understand that their best choice was to
actually install the upgrade.
Paul
Currently installing the upgrade with the belief it will make my plane safe.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Steele
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
I think the legal profession has seen to it that owning up to mistakes
is no longer a viable option for an engineer,
whether great or not. Nor for any other professional for that matter.
If you really believe that CH thinks there is/was a problem with XL,
then look no farther than your own parents' profession as the reason for
his denial. He may or may not have made a mistake, but he certainly
isn't that stupid. Even if he were willing to except personal
destruction, he would also be sacrificing the jobs of his sons, everyone
who works for a related company, and would no longer be able to support
his current customers. Perhaps you think all that damage would be
justified. I think that sort of damage is one reason this country is
falling to pieces.
You clearly have the ability to be a great engineer. The greater the
engineer, the greater consequences of a mistake. I guess any you make
are likely to be duesies. Would you take all your family and friends
down with you?
Ron
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
Paul,
You live in some parallel universe.
It is frequently not the expectation that a lawsuit be successful, it is
merely the intent to destroy the defendant in the process. The plaintiff in
such a process cannot conceive of any responsibility on their part. It is
always someone else's fault. This has become a huge national problem,
merely manifested in this very small situation.
Most of us think there is little if anything wrong with the 601 design.
Whatever (questionable) ills there were have certainly been fixed by this
modification . Yet, somehow you and a few others refuse pilot and
maintenance error causes and blame the designer for problems affecting
1/100% of the 601 population. Cut the stats down to normal pilot error
ratios and you have a very tiny percentage that might, conceivably be a
design shortcoming -- which is very unlikely. Of course, it is certainly
possible that CH never computed the idiot factor into his design process.
Yes, that may be a flaw. The rest of us well understand the shortcomings of
engineers in facing the real world. You would like to think that you do,
but you don't.
It would appear that your aim is to destroy Zenith Aircraft. Why not just
come out and say do. The rest of us are tired of the pontificating -- from
retired engineers and teenagers. Let's move on to the process of building
and maintaining this airplane. If you cannot do that, shut up.
Karl
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> As a retired engineer I must side with Sabrina on this point.
>
> It really is true that even the best engineers make mistakes. They are
> humans and that is the nature of being human. The lawyers don't circle
> simply because a human is human. They get active when they feel someone
> has
> taken the wrong path in this kind of situation like CH is alleged to have
> taken - try to talk your way out of the problem rather than acknowledging
> the facts and working to fix a known problem.
>
> I don't think that is what Sabrina has actually said. I got the message
> from her posts that she thinks he doesn't feel there was a mistake and
> honestly says that. He is simply wrong about that according to the
> published FAA documents. The only legitimate conclusion we can reach from
> all that is that CH and the FAA disagree.
>
> None of these things would generate a successful lawsuit in my opinion.
> The
> only real liability here would be the people who were actually injured
> could
> try to claim it was CH's negligence that caused their loss. That would
> be
> difficult to collect on even if it was completely true. We are talking
> about experimental airplanes here and we all signed waivers of liability
> in
> order to buy the plans.
>
> I think it would be better if CH and all his sons made it very clear that
> there really was a problem and the design change that they endorsed and
> released to all owners fixes the problem. That would clear it all up for
> all the owners and they would understand that their best choice was to
> actually install the upgrade.
>
> Paul
> Currently installing the upgrade with the belief it will make my plane
> safe.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Steele
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:35 AM
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
>
>
> I think the legal profession has seen to it that owning up to mistakes
> is no longer a viable option for an engineer,
> whether great or not. Nor for any other professional for that matter.
> If you really believe that CH thinks there is/was a problem with XL,
> then look no farther than your own parents' profession as the reason for
> his denial. He may or may not have made a mistake, but he certainly
> isn't that stupid. Even if he were willing to except personal
> destruction, he would also be sacrificing the jobs of his sons, everyone
> who works for a related company, and would no longer be able to support
> his current customers. Perhaps you think all that damage would be
> justified. I think that sort of damage is one reason this country is
> falling to pieces.
>
> You clearly have the ability to be a great engineer. The greater the
> engineer, the greater consequences of a mistake. I guess any you make
> are likely to be duesies. Would you take all your family and friends
> down with you?
>
> Ron
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 |
Mike,
I have asked this question too and didn't get a straight answer.
For my installation, I measured from the flange to where the bayonet entered
the exhaust pipe. It makes sense to me that being consistent from pipe to
pipe is required. I'm seeing EGTs in the range 1350 to 1400 pretty much as
USJabiru indicates in their installation video. I have 11 hours on my
engine. I am current trying to get the CHTs down with interior baffles in
the air plenums.
Jeff Davidson
CH601-HD 3300A (Solid Lifters)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
oops, make that 1%.
Karl
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. |
Hi Karl,
I agree with much of what you wrote, but a couple of your clearly stupid and
unjustified statements force me to respond.
Indeed I don't care one hoot about the future of Zenith. It's fine with me
if they continue to do business. I just don't think we are ever going to
get anything useful on the XL question from them in the future.
I find your personal criticism offensive. You pretend to read my mind and
then complain about the thoughts you had rather than ones I actually had and
expressed. That is just plain childish bullshit on your part.
For me it important to clear up the distinction between a fix that might or
might not address the actual problem that clearly existed, in my opinion,
that led to the accidents. Your notion that it was all pilot error and
loose cables is clearly not true. If it were you must account for the
reality that only Zodiac XLs had structure failures in a field where there
are many similar planes with similar pilots and cables that didn't have any
similar accidents.
Before I correctly understood the FAA ruling I didn't believe there was a
smoking gun to explain the accidents. After my recent conversations and
rereading the FAA publication I believe there was indeed a real problem that
was identified by engineering review at the FAA. That allows me to believe
the actual problem was fixed rather than the design was beefed up in the
hope the unknown problem would go away.
I know we all had to place a great deal of faith in CH and Zenith/Zenair
when we decided to build our planes. I think the vicious namecalling that
is taking place on this list is really a measure of how each of us reacts
when faced with the idea our faith was wrongly placed. Some of us change
our opinions faced with new facts. Others just attack the messenger so they
can continue to believe their previous ideas. Once again this is all normal
human nature.
I hope we all install the upgrade and enjoy our wonderful planes. If we
have different reasons for doing that it is not a problem. If some refuse
to believe the update is necessary in the face of overwhelming proof and
then kill themselves in unmodified planes that will cause a measure of
damage to us all.
Respectfully,
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Polifka
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
<jfowler120@verizon.net>
Paul,
You live in some parallel universe.
It is frequently not the expectation that a lawsuit be successful, it is
merely the intent to destroy the defendant in the process. The plaintiff in
such a process cannot conceive of any responsibility on their part. It is
always someone else's fault. This has become a huge national problem,
merely manifested in this very small situation.
Most of us think there is little if anything wrong with the 601 design.
Whatever (questionable) ills there were have certainly been fixed by this
modification . Yet, somehow you and a few others refuse pilot and
maintenance error causes and blame the designer for problems affecting
1/100% of the 601 population. Cut the stats down to normal pilot error
ratios and you have a very tiny percentage that might, conceivably be a
design shortcoming -- which is very unlikely. Of course, it is certainly
possible that CH never computed the idiot factor into his design process.
Yes, that may be a flaw. The rest of us well understand the shortcomings of
engineers in facing the real world. You would like to think that you do,
but you don't.
It would appear that your aim is to destroy Zenith Aircraft. Why not just
come out and say do. The rest of us are tired of the pontificating -- from
retired engineers and teenagers. Let's move on to the process of building
and maintaining this airplane. If you cannot do that, shut up.
Karl
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> As a retired engineer I must side with Sabrina on this point.
>
> It really is true that even the best engineers make mistakes. They are
> humans and that is the nature of being human. The lawyers don't circle
> simply because a human is human. They get active when they feel someone
> has
> taken the wrong path in this kind of situation like CH is alleged to have
> taken - try to talk your way out of the problem rather than acknowledging
> the facts and working to fix a known problem.
>
> I don't think that is what Sabrina has actually said. I got the message
> from her posts that she thinks he doesn't feel there was a mistake and
> honestly says that. He is simply wrong about that according to the
> published FAA documents. The only legitimate conclusion we can reach from
> all that is that CH and the FAA disagree.
>
> None of these things would generate a successful lawsuit in my opinion.
> The
> only real liability here would be the people who were actually injured
> could
> try to claim it was CH's negligence that caused their loss. That would
> be
> difficult to collect on even if it was completely true. We are talking
> about experimental airplanes here and we all signed waivers of liability
> in
> order to buy the plans.
>
> I think it would be better if CH and all his sons made it very clear that
> there really was a problem and the design change that they endorsed and
> released to all owners fixes the problem. That would clear it all up for
> all the owners and they would understand that their best choice was to
> actually install the upgrade.
>
> Paul
> Currently installing the upgrade with the belief it will make my plane
> safe.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Steele
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:35 AM
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
>
>
> I think the legal profession has seen to it that owning up to mistakes
> is no longer a viable option for an engineer,
> whether great or not. Nor for any other professional for that matter.
> If you really believe that CH thinks there is/was a problem with XL,
> then look no farther than your own parents' profession as the reason for
> his denial. He may or may not have made a mistake, but he certainly
> isn't that stupid. Even if he were willing to except personal
> destruction, he would also be sacrificing the jobs of his sons, everyone
> who works for a related company, and would no longer be able to support
> his current customers. Perhaps you think all that damage would be
> justified. I think that sort of damage is one reason this country is
> falling to pieces.
>
> You clearly have the ability to be a great engineer. The greater the
> engineer, the greater consequences of a mistake. I guess any you make
> are likely to be duesies. Would you take all your family and friends
> down with you?
>
> Ron
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300 |
Arthur Krueger [bldrflyr@att.net] posted this on the Yahoo Jabiru engine
list on July 21st:
"I once made a couple of test flights with two EGT probes installed
simultaneously on the #2 cylinder exhaust pipe of my 3300 engine. One probe
was located 3" (about 75mm) from the head and the other was located 4"
(about 100mm) from the head. After correcting for individual probe error, I
found that the probe located closer to the head gave readings about 6
degrees F. (about 3 degrees C.) higher than the probe further away. Not
exactly what you are looking for but maybe it'll help.
Art................Sonex N6UZ taildragger (#0095)..................Jab3300
(#261)/AeroCarb"
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Installing EGT probes on Jab 3300
--> <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
Mike,
I have asked this question too and didn't get a straight answer.
For my installation, I measured from the flange to where the bayonet entered
the exhaust pipe. It makes sense to me that being consistent from pipe to
pipe is required. I'm seeing EGTs in the range 1350 to 1400 pretty much as
USJabiru indicates in their installation video. I have 11 hours on my
engine. I am current trying to get the CHTs down with interior baffles in
the air plenums.
Jeff Davidson
CH601-HD 3300A (Solid Lifters)
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