---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/28/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:09 AM - Just Three Days Left & Some Very Nice Comments... (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:05 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 01:29 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 3. 05:02 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 09:06 AM - Compass (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net) 5. 09:44 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Steve Look) 6. 10:32 AM - Re: compass position (Bryan Martin) 7. 10:54 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Bryan Martin) 8. 11:13 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Paul Mulwitz) 9. 11:37 AM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Terry Phillips) 10. 04:10 PM - Re: compass position (Jeff) 11. 04:56 PM - Re: Undercarriage failures (Afterfxllc@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:52 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith601-List: Just Three Days Left & Some Very Nice Comments... Dear Listers, There are just three days left in this year's List Fund Raiser. Won't you take a monment and make a quick Contribution today to support the continued upgrade and operation of these Forum services. I've received some more really nice comments from Listers along with their List Support Contributions, and I've share a few below. There are some sweet gifts available this year, so browse the selections and pickup a nice item along with your qualifying Contribution. Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA Thank you in advance for your generous support! It is very much appreciated! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ------------------------------------------------------- Great resource, keep it coming... Marten V. Thanks for maintaining these essential lists! Rumen D. Great Service! Douglas D. Thanks for this great service! Peter T. Thanks for your enduring support of homebuilding communications! Daniel M. You do a great job and provide a valuable service. Mark B. It's really a great source I have used a lot. Robert K. Reading the RV-10 list is part of my morning routine... Perry C. Great job running these lists. Edward T. Thanks for doing a tough job. Mic T. Your List was such a great resource for me when I built in "98". Ron V. Its a very useful forum. Dave F. Really enjoy your list... William D. Great service, Gerald T. The list still is a valuable source of information and there are many worthwhile postings. Graham H. The list has seen me through an RV-9A, RV-10, and now an RV-12. Albert G. Thanks for a great resource! Barry H. Thank you for maintaining this excellent site. Bill W. The Matronics Email list are an invaluable service. William C. I appreciate the RV-10 list. Vijay P. Thanks for a great list and all of the work you do. Ian W. Thanks for keeping up this very useful list. George R. The list is excellent and I find it very handy for any problems I come up against during construction. Greg W. The lists are an important part of my day. I've met lots of people and made lots of friends. Dave S. It's really a great source I haved used a lot. Robert K. I read the Pietenpol List everyday. PF B. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:57 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Hi Andrew, I don't really know what an XL 601B is. If you are using the light weight Czech gear on a 1320 pound plane then that might explain the gear failures. I think the European Ultralight planes have a lower gross weight and the Czech gear was designed for that spec. In any case going back to the standard aluminum "Spring" gear should solve your problem. Paul XL still doing the upgrade. From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew McMenamin Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 10:40 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Hi list members We have recently had both undercarriage legs fail in quick succession. We have an XL 601B with curved legs, which I understand are made of carbon fibre covered with fibreglass, and after a firm landing, noted on pre-flight a week later a 3 mm wide and 250 mm long longitudinal crack down the midline of the rear aspect of the left leg. We had this replaced, then last week the other leg gave way after a further firm landing, this time transversely across the upper leg just below the attachment to the fuselage. These landings were just typical firm student landings with an instructor and leg failure was not expected from either. Has anyone had a similar experience? Any recommendations? Thanks Andrew ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:46 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Paul, AMD offered that gear as an option on the 601... I have one that came in for a upgrade and I called Zenith to see if it was changed / illegal or factory and sure enough it is an option. Jeff In a message dated 11/28/2010 3:06:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm@att.net writes: Hi Andrew, I don't really know what an XL 601B is. If you are using the light weight Czech gear on a 1320 pound plane then that might explain the gear failures. I think the European Ultralight planes have a lower gross weight and the Czech gear was designed for that spec. In any case going back to the standard aluminum "Spring" gear should solve your problem. Paul XL still doing the upgrade. From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew McMenamin Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 10:40 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Hi list members We have recently had both undercarriage legs fail in quick succession. We have an XL 601B with curved legs, which I understand are made of carbon fibre covered with fibreglass, and after a firm landing, noted on pre-flight a week later a 3 mm wide and 250 mm long longitudinal crack down the midline of the rear aspect of the left leg. We had this replaced, then last week the other leg gave way after a further firm landing, this time transversely across the upper leg just below the attachment to the fuselage. These landings were just typical firm student landings with an instructor and leg failure was not expected from either. Has anyone had a similar experience? Any recommendations? Thanks Andrew www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:25 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Hi Jeff, I guess that could be an example of the questionable engineering we have received from Zenith/Zenair/AMD. It makes me all the more appreciative of the thousands of man-hours the FAA engineers spent reviewing the pre and post upgrade XL structure. By the way, I confirmed the fact of all that FAA engineering effort with the manager of the light plane division - Wes Ryan. I spoke with him while attending an ASTM F37 committee meeting a few weeks ago in Long Beach, CA. He absolutely confirmed the facts that FAA engineers literally spent thousands of man-hours going over the XL design before the upgrade and again after the upgrade design was created by Zenair. They indeed did pronounce the pre-upgrade design as deficient and the post-upgrade design as meeting the appropriate ASTM design requirements. I think we are very lucky that the XL existed both in S-LSA form and kit/plans form. If not for the S-LSA, I doubt the FAA would have paid so much attention to this design - even with the NTSB attention and accident record. Now we have an apparently competent design for our planes. Paul Camas, WA XL upgrade work in progress. From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 1:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Paul, AMD offered that gear as an option on the 601... I have one that came in for a upgrade and I called Zenith to see if it was changed / illegal or factory and sure enough it is an option. Jeff In a message dated 11/28/2010 3:06:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm@att.net writes: Hi Andrew, I don't really know what an XL 601B is. If you are using the light weight Czech gear on a 1320 pound plane then that might explain the gear failures. I think the European Ultralight planes have a lower gross weight and the Czech gear was designed for that spec. In any case going back to the standard aluminum "Spring" gear should solve your problem. Paul XL still doing the upgrade. From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew McMenamin Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 10:40 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Hi list members We have recently had both undercarriage legs fail in quick succession. We have an XL 601B with curved legs, which I understand are made of carbon fibre covered with fibreglass, and after a firm landing, noted on pre-flight a week later a 3 mm wide and 250 mm long longitudinal crack down the midline of the rear aspect of the left leg. We had this replaced, then last week the other leg gave way after a further firm landing, this time transversely across the upper leg just below the attachment to the fuselage. These landings were just typical firm student landings with an instructor and leg failure was not expected from either. Has anyone had a similar experience? Any recommendations? Thanks Andrew www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://forums.matronics.com tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com / href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:42 AM PST US From: BobbyPaulk@comcast.net Subject: Zenith601-List: Compass Chris, I see you were flying when the compass moved 5 deg. with the stick moving. Try moving the stick on the ground. The movement you saw may not be magnetic interference. A compass will move with acceleration and will also when you make a turn will tend to turn in the opposite direction at first. It will lead and lag depending on heading ( east is least and west is best.) A southerly heading is the most steady if you are trying to set one up. Hope this helps Bobby ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:48 AM PST US From: Steve Look Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures I thought this pot had been stirred enough. Apparently as long as Zenith survives or there is something more than scrap value left to the XL, there is never enough. Steve At 06:59 AM 11/28/2010, you wrote: > >I guess that could be an example of the questionable engineering ... Steve Look Monticello, IL 601XL "Dogs have owners, Cats have staff" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: compass position From: Bryan Martin I bought an expensive vertical card compass for my Zodiac. I first mounted it in the panel but could never get it compensated correctly there, I moved it to the top of the dash and still could not get it compensated. The compass worked fine when out of the airplane. I finally bought a $10 wet compass from Walmart and stuck it to the canopy about eight inches above the dash and was able to zero it in without any trouble. I sold the aircraft compass on e-Bay. The cheap compass is marked off in 30 degree increments like an aircraft compass as well as the eight cardinal directions. The rules state that you must have a magnetic direction indicator in the airplane, nothing in the rules say it has to be a certified aircraft compass. On Nov 27, 2010, at 5:33 PM, chris Sinfield wrote: > > Advice from users required please > > I am about to order the standby compass and was wanting some advice from user's. I like the dash mounted ones over the pedestal ones and I do have room in the dash. > > When flying the local Sportstar with duel sticks, same config as mine, I see the dash compass move up to 5 deg when you move the stick. Has anyone seen this in the XL with the duel stick set up? > > what about with the duel stick and pedestal compass any movement on the compass with stick movement? > > I was thinking of the FALCON over the AIRPATH just over cost or is the Falcon not up to it? I had thought of a boat pedestal compass but the DAR said no.. > > Chris > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321237#321237 > > > > > > > > > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures From: Bryan Martin I believe the composite gear was designed for the european version. The max gross weight is lower in the european rules. the composite gear was used to save weight and allow a greater usable payload but it is probably not as suitable as the original aluminum gear at the U. S. weight limits. Two possible solutions to this are either order the original aluminum gear from Zenith or the lighter but more expensive gear from Grove. Both are stronger than the composite gear. Some modifications may be needed to the gear channel. On Nov 28, 2010, at 1:40 AM, Andrew McMenamin wrote: > Hi list members > > We have recently had both undercarriage legs fail in quick succession. We have an XL 601B with curved legs, which I understand are made of carbon fibre covered with fibreglass, and after a firm landing, noted on pre-flight a week later a 3 mm wide and 250 mm long longitudinal crack down the midline of the rear aspect of the left leg. We had this replaced, then last week the other leg gave way after a further firm landing, this time transversely across the upper leg just below the attachment to the fuselage. > > These landings were just typical firm student landings with an instructor and leg failure was not expected from either. > > Has anyone had a similar experience? Any recommendations? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:52 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Steve, Perhaps if you had read the rest of the message instead of just cutting it off you would reach a more correct conclusion. I don't know why you want to bitch about Zenith surviving. The rest of the message should actually help the value of the XL since it says the new design has actually proven to be a good one after extensive review by competent engineers rather then the poor one sold to us by Zenith/Zenair/AMD that wound up suffering a number of in-flight failures. Or perhaps you are one of the folks who wants to believe there never was a real problem . . . that all those people died because they didn't keep their cables at the correct tension? Just in case you actually read the end of messages as well as the first line . . . The Upgraded design is a competent one that meets the required ASTM standards according to the FAA engineers that do the part 23 reviews. This was not true of the previous design. We all were supposed to get that message from the FAA Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin issued last November, but the language was obscure enough that we just didn't understand what they were trying to say. That was the document that required that ALL XLs and 650s receive the upgrade before being flown again. Paul From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Look Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures I thought this pot had been stirred enough. Apparently as long as Zenith survives or there is something more than scrap value left to the XL, there is never enough. Steve At 06:59 AM 11/28/2010, you wrote: I guess that could be an example of the questionable engineering ... Steve Look Monticello, IL 601XL "Dogs have owners, Cats have staff" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:18 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures Hi Andrew Can you provide us with more information about your 601? It sounds like you are using it for flight instruction, so, I would assume, that it is a factory assembled S-LSA. Who built it? AMD, CZAW, someone else? What is the gross weight limit specified in the POH? I believe that some CZAW 601XL's aircraft were manufactured for the European Ultralight specification with a maximum allowable gross of 472.5 kg (1042 lb). I know that Comlet, CZAW's landing gear supplier, markets versions of their gear for both 472.5 and 600 kg gross (Google Comlet for more info). I have no idea how one might determine whether the gear on your aircraft is supplied by Comlet, and, if so, which version you have. I have no doubt that the standard 601XL gear supplied by Zenair is very strong. However, the attachments for the composite gear are very different than for the standard aluminum gear. Switching would be a lot more complex than just changing the gear. I have seen test data indicating that the heavier version of the Comlet gear passed European tests on an airplane rated at 600 kg (1320 lb) gross. It is likely that the gear on the PiperSport is the heavier version of the Comlet gear. If you believe that your gear is a Comlet product, I would recommend that you contact Comlet and try to determine which version of their gear you have. If you have the gear made for the European Ultralight you might look into buying the heavier version. Hopefully, the attachment brackets fit both versions. If you do decide to purchase the heavier gear, I would consider ordering a pair for my 601XL at the same time and we could split the trans-Atlantic shipping costs. Let me know. Good luck. Terry At 07:40 PM 11/28/2010 +1300, you wrote: >Hi list members > >We have recently had both undercarriage legs fail in quick succession. We >have an XL 601B with curved legs, which I understand are made of carbon >fibre covered with fibreglass, and after a firm landing, noted on >pre-flight a week later a 3 mm wide and 250 mm long longitudinal crack >down the midline of the rear aspect of the left leg. We had this >replaced, then last week the other leg gave way after a further firm >landing, this time transversely across the upper leg just below the >attachment to the fuselage. > >These landings were just typical firm student landings with an instructor >and leg failure was not expected from either. > >Has anyone had a similar experience? Any recommendations? > >Thanks > >Andrew Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:49 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: compass position Bryon, While that may not be any rule, the FAA Inspector and/or DAR deciding on issuing an Airworthiness Certificate or not has the discretion to accept or reject what they feel is necessary. Results may and do vary. Jeff D -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: compass position I bought an expensive vertical card compass for my Zodiac. I first mounted it in the panel but could never get it compensated correctly there, I moved it to the top of the dash and still could not get it compensated. The compass worked fine when out of the airplane. I finally bought a $10 wet compass from Walmart and stuck it to the canopy about eight inches above the dash and was able to zero it in without any trouble. I sold the aircraft compass on e-Bay. Do not archive The cheap compass is marked off in 30 degree increments like an aircraft compass as well as the eight cardinal directions. The rules state that you must have a magnetic direction indicator in the airplane, nothing in the rules say it has to be a certified aircraft compass. On Nov 27, 2010, at 5:33 PM, chris Sinfield wrote: > > Advice from users required please > > I am about to order the standby compass and was wanting some advice from user's. I like the dash mounted ones over the pedestal ones and I do have room in the dash. > > When flying the local Sportstar with duel sticks, same config as mine, I see the dash compass move up to 5 deg when you move the stick. Has anyone seen this in the XL with the duel stick set up? > > what about with the duel stick and pedestal compass any movement on the compass with stick movement? > > I was thinking of the FALCON over the AIRPATH just over cost or is the Falcon not up to it? I had thought of a boat pedestal compass but the DAR said no.. > > Chris > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321237#321237 > > > > > > > > > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:11 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Undercarriage failures The gear in question is Grove gear. And Zenith isn't at fault because someone elses gear failed. 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