Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
2. 08:00 AM - Upgrade or lack there of! Aileron (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
3. 08:07 AM - Chat Room (George Race)
4. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Mark Hubelbank)
5. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
6. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Paul Mulwitz)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Upgrades or lack there of! |
Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the
upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the poor work
just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never be known and
really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no one is required to
inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work is this sloppy (and I
think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I think some plane's are worse
off after the upgrade. And if these plane's start falling out of the sky
next year the value of the 601 will be less than scrap metal.
As for the rules:
I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can work on
any EXP-AB aircraft.
I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All my
work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing for each
aircraft we upgrade.
We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about the
upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed.
I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get an
A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't read blue
prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance where we can.
Jeff
In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
psm@att.net writes:
Hi Jeff,
It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade was not
the original builder of this plane.
I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to know more
about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how it was built
(plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners it has had that might
help to understand how this all happened.
If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would probably
require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done by a licensed A&P.
In the experimental there is no government control at all over this
process. Only the owner has the authority to require inspection of any work by
a second mechanic. I really think current and future owners of this kind
of aircraft (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came
about.
I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was the
first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything on an airplane?
Thanks,
Paul
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
Walt,
Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished this year.
I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the left
aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will have a bird he can
be confident in.
The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour because of the
upgrade.
Jeff
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
http://forums.matronics.com
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Upgrade or lack there of! Aileron |
Under each Photo is a note of what is incorrect.
This is as opened and you can see there are no rivets in the rib where it
meets the
aileron and the rivet spacing in the top and bottom of the skin is
incorrect (missing rivets).
Also not the nuts might be bottomed out and one more washer is needed.
As a result of this I believe it caused flexing in the aileron and caused
it to bend at the
trailing edge and now this aileron has to be replaced.
Here you can see the reinforcement is installed incorrectly... This should
be forward and
also attached to the hinge and angle to keep the skin from bending. This is
absolutely
useless and if you look it was once drilled correctly and was in the
correct location.
Her
Same as above
This one I feel is the most critical and was installed again too far aft
and as a result
the new paint is cracked at the joint from flexing.
This is the new aileron that will be installed. I offered these to Sabrina
when she was
needing some but she ended up doing something else so now it will have a
new
home on this bird. I have been storing these for 4 years now..... anyone
need a right aileron??
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
http://www.mykitairplane.com <blocked::http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page.
George
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Upgrades or lack there of! |
Jeff,
It would be hard to legally require it, but having an EAA adviser
inspect it as an alternative to a A&P would be very desirable. Although
they can't "sign it off" they do issue a report. It is not a perfect
system but would clearly catch things like you are seeing. It may be too
late for this round of updates as the worst offending spots can not be
seen during any reasonable annual/condition inspection. I suppose one
could put a video camera on a very long handle in through the two
inspection holes we do have. Even that does not allow the inspection of
significant areas.
I take it that you are opening things up again for some reason
after they had been closed and this is how you see all this.
On 12/12/2010 10:24 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
> Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the
> upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the
> poor work just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never
> be known and really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no
> one is required to inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work
> is this sloppy (and I think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I
> think some plane's are worse off after the upgrade. And if these
> plane's start falling out of the sky next year the value of the 601
> will be less than scrap metal.
> As for the rules:
> I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can
> work on any EXP-AB aircraft.
> I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All
> my work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing
> for each aircraft we upgrade.
> We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about
> the upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed.
> I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get
> an A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't
> read blue prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance
> where we can.
> Jeff
> In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> psm@att.net writes:
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade
> was not the original builder of this plane.
>
> I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to
> know more about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how
> it was built (plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners
> it has had that might help to understand how this all happened.
>
> If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would
> probably require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done
> by a licensed A&P. In the experimental there is no government
> control at all over this process. Only the owner has the
> authority to require inspection of any work by a second mechanic.
> I really think current and future owners of this kind of aircraft
> (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came about.
>
> I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was
> the first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything
> on an airplane?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Afterfxllc@aol.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM
> *To:* zenith601-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
>
> Walt,
>
> Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished
> this year.
>
> I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the
> left aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will
> have a bird he can be confident in.
>
> The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour
> because of the upgrade.
>
>
> Jeff
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> *
>
> tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
> / href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
> http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> *
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Upgrades or lack there of! |
This one had wing lockers but most of the upgrade can be seen thru the
inspection panels. I will be removing the LE to repair the new spar angle
rivets though.
In a message dated 12/12/2010 11:08:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mhubel@nemon.com writes:
Jeff,
It would be hard to legally require it, but having an EAA adviser inspect
it as an alternative to a A&P would be very desirable. Although they can't
"sign it off" they do issue a report. It is not a perfect system but would
clearly catch things like you are seeing. It may be too late for this round
of updates as the worst offending spots can not be seen during any
reasonable annual/condition inspection. I suppose one could put a video camera
on
a very long handle in through the two inspection holes we do have. Even
that does not allow the inspection of significant areas.
I take it that you are opening things up again for some reason after they
had been closed and this is how you see all this.
On 12/12/2010 10:24 AM, _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com)
wrote:
Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the
upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the poor work
just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never be known and
really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no one is required to
inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work is this sloppy (and I
think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I think some plane's are worse
off after the upgrade. And if these plane's start falling out of the sky
next year the value of the 601 will be less than scrap metal.
As for the rules:
I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can work on
any EXP-AB aircraft.
I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All my
work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing for each
aircraft we upgrade.
We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about the
upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed.
I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get an
A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't read blue
prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance where we can.
Jeff
In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_psm@att.net_ (mailto:psm@att.net) writes:
Hi Jeff,
It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade was not
the original builder of this plane.
I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to know more
about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how it was built
(plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners it has had that might
help to understand how this all happened.
If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would probably
require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done by a licensed A&P.
In the experimental there is no government control at all over this
process. Only the owner has the authority to require inspection of any work by
a second mechanic. I really think current and future owners of this kind
of aircraft (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came
about.
I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was the
first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything on an airplane?
Thanks,
Paul
From: _owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com)
[_mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of
_Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
Walt,
Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished this year.
I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the left
aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will have a bird he can
be confident in.
The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour because of the
upgrade.
Jeff
_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
www.buildersbooks.com
_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">_www.aeroelectric.com_
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
/ href=_"http://www.buildersbooks.com/"_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
>_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
_http://www.homebuilthelp.com/_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
href=_"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
>_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
s.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_
(http://forums.matronics.com/)
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
_mhubel@nemon.com_ (mailto:mhubel@nemon.com)
978-443-3955
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Upgrades or lack there of! |
Jeff,
I hope you are considering replacing the extruded spar cap angle as well as
the rivets. I remember seeing some significant damage to the area around
the poorly set rivets. I think the cost of material would be minimal and
the results from trying to smooth out the damage might be questionable. In
either case you will need to do a lot of work to make the holes line up
properly to install new hard rivets.
I'm guessing you will see similar damage on the other end of the rivets.
The same logic can apply there too. Aluminum bar and angle is not very
expensive and easy to obtain.
Paul
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
This one had wing lockers but most of the upgrade can be seen thru the
inspection panels. I will be removing the LE to repair the new spar angle
rivets though.
In a message dated 12/12/2010 11:08:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mhubel@nemon.com writes:
Jeff,
It would be hard to legally require it, but having an EAA adviser
inspect it as an alternative to a A&P would be very desirable. Although they
can't "sign it off" they do issue a report. It is not a perfect system but
would clearly catch things like you are seeing. It may be too late for this
round of updates as the worst offending spots can not be seen during any
reasonable annual/condition inspection. I suppose one could put a video
camera on a very long handle in through the two inspection holes we do have.
Even that does not allow the inspection of significant areas.
I take it that you are opening things up again for some reason after
they had been closed and this is how you see all this.
On 12/12/2010 10:24 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:
Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the upgrade
but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the poor work just
a few years later.... So the answer to that will never be known and really
isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no one is required to inspect
this work and if just one tenth of the work is this sloppy (and I think it
is based on the aircraft I have seen) I think some plane's are worse off
after the upgrade. And if these plane's start falling out of the sky next
year the value of the 601 will be less than scrap metal.
As for the rules:
I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can work on
any EXP-AB aircraft.
I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All my
work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing for each
aircraft we upgrade.
We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about the
upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed.
I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get an A&P
to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't read blue
prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance where we can.
Jeff
In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
psm@att.net writes:
Hi Jeff,
It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade was not the
original builder of this plane.
I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to know more
about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how it was built
(plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners it has had that might
help to understand how this all happened.
If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would probably
require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done by a licensed A&P.
In the experimental there is no government control at all over this process.
Only the owner has the authority to require inspection of any work by a
second mechanic. I really think current and future owners of this kind of
aircraft (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came
about.
I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was the first
time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything on an airplane?
Thanks,
Paul
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of!
Walt,
Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished this year.
I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the left
aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will have a bird he
can be confident in.
The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour because of the
upgrade.
Jeff
www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/ href= <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
"http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href= <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Zenith601-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|