---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/12/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 2. 08:00 AM - Upgrade or lack there of! Aileron (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 3. 08:07 AM - Chat Room (George Race) 4. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Mark Hubelbank) 5. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 6. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:26 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the poor work just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never be known and really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no one is required to inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work is this sloppy (and I think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I think some plane's are worse off after the upgrade. And if these plane's start falling out of the sky next year the value of the 601 will be less than scrap metal. As for the rules: I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can work on any EXP-AB aircraft. I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All my work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing for each aircraft we upgrade. We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about the upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed. I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get an A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't read blue prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance where we can. Jeff In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm@att.net writes: Hi Jeff, It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade was not the original builder of this plane. I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to know more about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how it was built (plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners it has had that might help to understand how this all happened. If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would probably require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done by a licensed A&P. In the experimental there is no government control at all over this process. Only the owner has the authority to require inspection of any work by a second mechanic. I really think current and future owners of this kind of aircraft (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came about. I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was the first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything on an airplane? Thanks, Paul From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! Walt, Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished this year. I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the left aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will have a bird he can be confident in. The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour because of the upgrade. Jeff www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:50 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Zenith601-List: Upgrade or lack there of! Aileron Under each Photo is a note of what is incorrect. This is as opened and you can see there are no rivets in the rib where it meets the aileron and the rivet spacing in the top and bottom of the skin is incorrect (missing rivets). Also not the nuts might be bottomed out and one more washer is needed. As a result of this I believe it caused flexing in the aileron and caused it to bend at the trailing edge and now this aileron has to be replaced. Here you can see the reinforcement is installed incorrectly... This should be forward and also attached to the hinge and angle to keep the skin from bending. This is absolutely useless and if you look it was once drilled correctly and was in the correct location. Her Same as above This one I feel is the most critical and was installed again too far aft and as a result the new paint is cracked at the joint from flexing. This is the new aileron that will be installed. I offered these to Sabrina when she was needing some but she ended up doing something else so now it will have a new home on this bird. I have been storing these for 4 years now..... anyone need a right aileron?? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:35 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith601-List: Chat Room Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT http://www.mykitairplane.com Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page. George ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:09 AM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! Jeff, It would be hard to legally require it, but having an EAA adviser inspect it as an alternative to a A&P would be very desirable. Although they can't "sign it off" they do issue a report. It is not a perfect system but would clearly catch things like you are seeing. It may be too late for this round of updates as the worst offending spots can not be seen during any reasonable annual/condition inspection. I suppose one could put a video camera on a very long handle in through the two inspection holes we do have. Even that does not allow the inspection of significant areas. I take it that you are opening things up again for some reason after they had been closed and this is how you see all this. On 12/12/2010 10:24 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the > upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the > poor work just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never > be known and really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no > one is required to inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work > is this sloppy (and I think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I > think some plane's are worse off after the upgrade. And if these > plane's start falling out of the sky next year the value of the 601 > will be less than scrap metal. > As for the rules: > I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can > work on any EXP-AB aircraft. > I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All > my work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing > for each aircraft we upgrade. > We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about > the upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed. > I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get > an A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't > read blue prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance > where we can. > Jeff > In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > psm@att.net writes: > > Hi Jeff, > > It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade > was not the original builder of this plane. > > I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to > know more about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how > it was built (plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners > it has had that might help to understand how this all happened. > > If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would > probably require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done > by a licensed A&P. In the experimental there is no government > control at all over this process. Only the owner has the > authority to require inspection of any work by a second mechanic. > I really think current and future owners of this kind of aircraft > (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came about. > > I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was > the first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything > on an airplane? > > Thanks, > > Paul > > *From:*owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Afterfxllc@aol.com > *Sent:* Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM > *To:* zenith601-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! > > Walt, > > Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished > this year. > > I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the > left aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will > have a bird he can be confident in. > > The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour > because of the upgrade. > > > Jeff > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *www.aeroelectric.com* > > *www.buildersbooks.com* > > *www.homebuilthelp.com* > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > * > > tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com > / href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com > http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com > > p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List > s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > > * -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:32 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! This one had wing lockers but most of the upgrade can be seen thru the inspection panels. I will be removing the LE to repair the new spar angle rivets though. In a message dated 12/12/2010 11:08:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mhubel@nemon.com writes: Jeff, It would be hard to legally require it, but having an EAA adviser inspect it as an alternative to a A&P would be very desirable. Although they can't "sign it off" they do issue a report. It is not a perfect system but would clearly catch things like you are seeing. It may be too late for this round of updates as the worst offending spots can not be seen during any reasonable annual/condition inspection. I suppose one could put a video camera on a very long handle in through the two inspection holes we do have. Even that does not allow the inspection of significant areas. I take it that you are opening things up again for some reason after they had been closed and this is how you see all this. On 12/12/2010 10:24 AM, _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) wrote: Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the poor work just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never be known and really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no one is required to inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work is this sloppy (and I think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I think some plane's are worse off after the upgrade. And if these plane's start falling out of the sky next year the value of the 601 will be less than scrap metal. As for the rules: I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can work on any EXP-AB aircraft. I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All my work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing for each aircraft we upgrade. We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about the upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed. I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get an A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't read blue prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance where we can. Jeff In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, _psm@att.net_ (mailto:psm@att.net) writes: Hi Jeff, It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade was not the original builder of this plane. I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to know more about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how it was built (plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners it has had that might help to understand how this all happened. If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would probably require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done by a licensed A&P. In the experimental there is no government control at all over this process. Only the owner has the authority to require inspection of any work by a second mechanic. I really think current and future owners of this kind of aircraft (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came about. I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was the first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything on an airplane? Thanks, Paul From: _owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com) Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! Walt, Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished this year. I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the left aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will have a bird he can be confident in. The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour because of the upgrade. Jeff _www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) www.buildersbooks.com _www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) / href=_"http://www.buildersbooks.com/"_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) >_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) _http://www.homebuilthelp.com/_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) ">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) p://www.matronics.com/contribution">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) href=_"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) >_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) s.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA _mhubel@nemon.com_ (mailto:mhubel@nemon.com) 978-443-3955 (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:37 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! Jeff, I hope you are considering replacing the extruded spar cap angle as well as the rivets. I remember seeing some significant damage to the area around the poorly set rivets. I think the cost of material would be minimal and the results from trying to smooth out the damage might be questionable. In either case you will need to do a lot of work to make the holes line up properly to install new hard rivets. I'm guessing you will see similar damage on the other end of the rivets. The same logic can apply there too. Aluminum bar and angle is not very expensive and easy to obtain. Paul From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! This one had wing lockers but most of the upgrade can be seen thru the inspection panels. I will be removing the LE to repair the new spar angle rivets though. In a message dated 12/12/2010 11:08:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mhubel@nemon.com writes: Jeff, It would be hard to legally require it, but having an EAA adviser inspect it as an alternative to a A&P would be very desirable. Although they can't "sign it off" they do issue a report. It is not a perfect system but would clearly catch things like you are seeing. It may be too late for this round of updates as the worst offending spots can not be seen during any reasonable annual/condition inspection. I suppose one could put a video camera on a very long handle in through the two inspection holes we do have. Even that does not allow the inspection of significant areas. I take it that you are opening things up again for some reason after they had been closed and this is how you see all this. On 12/12/2010 10:24 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: Well from what I understand it was the original builder that did the upgrade but I highly doubt he built the plane by himself based on the poor work just a few years later.... So the answer to that will never be known and really isn't the issue. The issue as I see it is that no one is required to inspect this work and if just one tenth of the work is this sloppy (and I think it is based on the aircraft I have seen) I think some plane's are worse off after the upgrade. And if these plane's start falling out of the sky next year the value of the 601 will be less than scrap metal. As for the rules: I am not an A&P and my work doesn't have to be inspected and I can work on any EXP-AB aircraft. I can do everything and can sign off everything short of a annual. All my work is well documented and we request a 5 hour phase 1 in writing for each aircraft we upgrade. We have had the FAA send down someone from Oklahoma just to talk about the upgrade and take photo's of each part as installed. I think there should have to be an inspection but by who? If you get an A&P to do it they are unfamiliar with the upgrade and most can't read blue prints so it might just be up to us to offer assistance where we can. Jeff In a message dated 12/11/2010 9:58:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm@att.net writes: Hi Jeff, It seems from your comments that the person who did the upgrade was not the original builder of this plane. I don't want you to violate any confidences, but I would like to know more about the history of this plane. If you can tell us how it was built (plans/kit/quickbuild) and how many different owners it has had that might help to understand how this all happened. If I understand the rules in the USA, a big job like this would probably require an inspection by an AI even if the work was done by a licensed A&P. In the experimental there is no government control at all over this process. Only the owner has the authority to require inspection of any work by a second mechanic. I really think current and future owners of this kind of aircraft (Exp-AB) would benefit from knowing just how this fiasco came about. I am left wondering how such poor work was done. Perhaps this was the first time the "Mechanic" who did this work ever did anything on an airplane? Thanks, Paul From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Upgrades or lack there of! Walt, Those are different airplanes I am working on or have finished this year. I told the new owner I would do all the repairs and replace the left aileron for 2,000.00 and 500.00 for material and then he will have a bird he can be confident in. The airplane itself is built very well but it all went sour because of the upgrade. Jeff www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://forums.matronics.com tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com / href= "http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href= "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith601-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com / href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.