---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/21/11: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:42 AM - Re: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas (Larry McFarland) 2. 09:58 AM - Re: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas (Don Honabach) 3. 10:29 AM - Re: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas (Craig Payne) 4. 11:41 AM - Re: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas (ella) 5. 12:14 PM - Re: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas (Don Honabach) 6. 01:47 PM - Re: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas (ella) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:07 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Hi Douglas, The HDS does depend a bit on the engine and prop available. I have a Subaru EA81 with a 2.1 to 1 re-drive and a Warp Drive 70 inch prop set at 17-1/2 degrees pitch. My takeoff rate of climb is about 1200 fpm with the plane at 1125 lbs. Cruise is 115 to 120 and top end is 133 mph. If you have an 0-200 or a 120 H.P. Jabaru, you can go another 5 mph or more. Fairings on the HDS should include gear box covers at the top of the gear, step extension fairings an 11 inch prop fairing, flush fuel tank covers, and bottom antennae. The reason for not going faster with the HDS is its thick wing, which is great for short take off and landings and flaring slow, but it is a bit more friction dimensionally. Check out my site and you'll see the fairings on my completions page. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of douglas.lindsay Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:36 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas --> Hi all, I'm considering buying a 601 HDS at the moment. Although there's nothing desperately wrong with the plane's performance at the moment, I wanted to gauge what sort of options there are out there for improving things. So: what sort of ideas have you implemented for aerodynamic cleanup that haven't turned up in the forums already? I know some folk have applied wing fairings, others vortex generators, and there have been suggestions of converting to taildragger (bit too much work for me I think!) or even simply filling in rivet heads; but what else is out there, and what cruise speeds / stall speeds / climb rates have you ended up with as a result? Thanks all! Douglas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337638#337638 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:45 AM PST US From: Don Honabach Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Hey Doug - I really like my 601HDS. My plane climbs a lot faster than the spam cans and has decent cruise performance. The one area that I wish I could change though was to give it a little faster cruise speed (although, I think even those flying at 300MPH still want more speed, so I'm not sure when enough is enough sort of thing!). In order to try and get the maximum out of the design, I've installed pretty much EVERYTHING -- vortex generators, wing-root fairings, and basic aerodynamic clean ups. The one area I haven't done is to clean up the top side of the gear legs which I suspect would add a few knots. Really wish I had done those but haven't found the motivation to make them at this point -- if someone had them for sale though, I'd probably buy and install to try. The biggest improvement I saw was with the Vortex Generators and at least in my particular build seemed to help climb and improve cruise speeds by helping to keep the nose down. If nothing else, it added a safety margin as it decreased the stall speeds as well. I'm flying behind a Jabiru 3300A. My cruise speed is at the 125 to 135MPH no wind if I fly at a high RPM and willing to burn a lot of fuel. If I go all out, I can get almost 140MPH Ground Speed (No Wind) in the right conditions/altitude, etc. The 601HDS (as I think all small planes) are really affected by weight. Anything you can do to reduce the weight will make the plane fly better. When I did my first flight, I weighed 250 pounds, I now weigh under 200 and the plane does fly noticeable better as a result. Good luck! Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of douglas.lindsay Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:36 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas --> Hi all, I'm considering buying a 601 HDS at the moment. Although there's nothing desperately wrong with the plane's performance at the moment, I wanted to gauge what sort of options there are out there for improving things. So: what sort of ideas have you implemented for aerodynamic cleanup that haven't turned up in the forums already? I know some folk have applied wing fairings, others vortex generators, and there have been suggestions of converting to taildragger (bit too much work for me I think!) or even simply filling in rivet heads; but what else is out there, and what cruise speeds / stall speeds / climb rates have you ended up with as a result? Thanks all! Douglas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337638#337638 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:24 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Klaus Truemper did a lot of work on this on his Zenith 601HDS: http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/airplane.html (slow, lots of pictures) http://picasaweb.google.com/ttp444/Klaus601HDS# -- Craig ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:00 AM PST US From: "ella" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Hi What is the stall speed after installing the vortex generators Thanks Don----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Honabach" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:57 PM Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > > Hey Doug - > > I really like my 601HDS. My plane climbs a lot faster than the spam cans > and has decent cruise performance. The one area that I wish I could change > though was to give it a little faster cruise speed (although, I think even > those flying at 300MPH still want more speed, so I'm not sure when enough > is enough sort of thing!). > > In order to try and get the maximum out of the design, I've installed > pretty much EVERYTHING -- vortex generators, wing-root fairings, and basic > aerodynamic clean ups. The one area I haven't done is to clean up the top > side of the gear legs which I suspect would add a few knots. Really wish I > had done those but haven't found the motivation to make them at this > point -- if someone had them for sale though, I'd probably buy and install > to try. > > The biggest improvement I saw was with the Vortex Generators and at least > in my particular build seemed to help climb and improve cruise speeds by > helping to keep the nose down. If nothing else, it added a safety margin > as it decreased the stall speeds as well. > > I'm flying behind a Jabiru 3300A. My cruise speed is at the 125 to 135MPH > no wind if I fly at a high RPM and willing to burn a lot of fuel. If I go > all out, I can get almost 140MPH Ground Speed (No Wind) in the right > conditions/altitude, etc. > > The 601HDS (as I think all small planes) are really affected by weight. > Anything you can do to reduce the weight will make the plane fly better. > When I did my first flight, I weighed 250 pounds, I now weigh under 200 > and the plane does fly noticeable better as a result. > > Good luck! > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > douglas.lindsay > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:36 PM > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > --> > > Hi all, > > I'm considering buying a 601 HDS at the moment. Although there's nothing > desperately wrong with the plane's performance at the moment, I wanted to > gauge what sort of options there are out there for improving things. > > So: what sort of ideas have you implemented for aerodynamic cleanup that > haven't turned up in the forums already? I know some folk have applied > wing fairings, others vortex generators, and there have been suggestions > of converting to taildragger (bit too much work for me I think!) or even > simply filling in rivet heads; but what else is out there, and what cruise > speeds / stall speeds / climb rates have you ended up with as a result? > > Thanks all! > Douglas > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337638#337638 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:14 PM PST US From: Don Honabach Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Ella - Depending on loading/weight -- 40 to 50 MPH is the typical stall speeds I see now. I had started out about 5 to 10 MPH faster before installing them. The AOA required for stalling is also much higher during power on stalls like you may have seen in some of the online videos from the company that sells the stick on plastic ones from overseas. For me though, the stall speed really didn't matter much -- I was fine flying and landing a bit faster although the safety margin is always nice. What really got me was that the plane just flew better which is hard to quantify, but after noticing/feeling the change, I personally wouldn't want to fly a 601HDS for any real time without them. Another builder that I fly with a lot also noticed that the plane flew much better after installing. Hope this helps -- Thanks, Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ella Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Hi What is the stall speed after installing the vortex generators Thanks Don----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Honabach" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:57 PM Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > > Hey Doug - > > I really like my 601HDS. My plane climbs a lot faster than the spam cans > and has decent cruise performance. The one area that I wish I could change > though was to give it a little faster cruise speed (although, I think even > those flying at 300MPH still want more speed, so I'm not sure when enough > is enough sort of thing!). > > In order to try and get the maximum out of the design, I've installed > pretty much EVERYTHING -- vortex generators, wing-root fairings, and basic > aerodynamic clean ups. The one area I haven't done is to clean up the top > side of the gear legs which I suspect would add a few knots. Really wish I > had done those but haven't found the motivation to make them at this > point -- if someone had them for sale though, I'd probably buy and install > to try. > > The biggest improvement I saw was with the Vortex Generators and at least > in my particular build seemed to help climb and improve cruise speeds by > helping to keep the nose down. If nothing else, it added a safety margin > as it decreased the stall speeds as well. > > I'm flying behind a Jabiru 3300A. My cruise speed is at the 125 to 135MPH > no wind if I fly at a high RPM and willing to burn a lot of fuel. If I go > all out, I can get almost 140MPH Ground Speed (No Wind) in the right > conditions/altitude, etc. > > The 601HDS (as I think all small planes) are really affected by weight. > Anything you can do to reduce the weight will make the plane fly better. > When I did my first flight, I weighed 250 pounds, I now weigh under 200 > and the plane does fly noticeable better as a result. > > Good luck! > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > douglas.lindsay > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:36 PM > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > --> > > Hi all, > > I'm considering buying a 601 HDS at the moment. Although there's nothing > desperately wrong with the plane's performance at the moment, I wanted to > gauge what sort of options there are out there for improving things. > > So: what sort of ideas have you implemented for aerodynamic cleanup that > haven't turned up in the forums already? I know some folk have applied > wing fairings, others vortex generators, and there have been suggestions > of converting to taildragger (bit too much work for me I think!) or even > simply filling in rivet heads; but what else is out there, and what cruise > speeds / stall speeds / climb rates have you ended up with as a result? > > Thanks all! > Douglas > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337638#337638 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:13 PM PST US From: "ella" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas Thanks for info Don Rhodes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Honabach" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 3:12 PM Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > > Ella - > > Depending on loading/weight -- 40 to 50 MPH is the typical stall speeds I > see now. > > I had started out about 5 to 10 MPH faster before installing them. The AOA > required for stalling is also much higher during power on stalls like you > may have seen in some of the online videos from the company that sells the > stick on plastic ones from overseas. > > For me though, the stall speed really didn't matter much -- I was fine > flying and landing a bit faster although the safety margin is always nice. > What really got me was that the plane just flew better which is hard to > quantify, but after noticing/feeling the change, I personally wouldn't > want to fly a 601HDS for any real time without them. Another builder that > I fly with a lot also noticed that the plane flew much better after > installing. > > Hope this helps -- > > Thanks, > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ella > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:36 AM > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > > Hi > What is the stall speed after installing the vortex generators Thanks > Don----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Honabach" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:57 PM > Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas > > >> >> >> Hey Doug - >> >> I really like my 601HDS. My plane climbs a lot faster than the spam cans >> and has decent cruise performance. The one area that I wish I could >> change >> though was to give it a little faster cruise speed (although, I think >> even >> those flying at 300MPH still want more speed, so I'm not sure when enough >> is enough sort of thing!). >> >> In order to try and get the maximum out of the design, I've installed >> pretty much EVERYTHING -- vortex generators, wing-root fairings, and >> basic >> aerodynamic clean ups. The one area I haven't done is to clean up the top >> side of the gear legs which I suspect would add a few knots. Really wish >> I >> had done those but haven't found the motivation to make them at this >> point -- if someone had them for sale though, I'd probably buy and >> install >> to try. >> >> The biggest improvement I saw was with the Vortex Generators and at least >> in my particular build seemed to help climb and improve cruise speeds by >> helping to keep the nose down. If nothing else, it added a safety margin >> as it decreased the stall speeds as well. >> >> I'm flying behind a Jabiru 3300A. My cruise speed is at the 125 to 135MPH >> no wind if I fly at a high RPM and willing to burn a lot of fuel. If I go >> all out, I can get almost 140MPH Ground Speed (No Wind) in the right >> conditions/altitude, etc. >> >> The 601HDS (as I think all small planes) are really affected by weight. >> Anything you can do to reduce the weight will make the plane fly better. >> When I did my first flight, I weighed 250 pounds, I now weigh under 200 >> and the plane does fly noticeable better as a result. >> >> Good luck! >> Don >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> douglas.lindsay >> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:36 PM >> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Zenith601-List: Aerodynamic clean-up ideas >> >> --> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm considering buying a 601 HDS at the moment. Although there's nothing >> desperately wrong with the plane's performance at the moment, I wanted to >> gauge what sort of options there are out there for improving things. >> >> So: what sort of ideas have you implemented for aerodynamic cleanup that >> haven't turned up in the forums already? I know some folk have applied >> wing fairings, others vortex generators, and there have been suggestions >> of converting to taildragger (bit too much work for me I think!) or even >> simply filling in rivet heads; but what else is out there, and what >> cruise >> speeds / stall speeds / climb rates have you ended up with as a result? >> >> Thanks all! >> Douglas >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337638#337638 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.