---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/08/11: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:17 AM - Re: Finally getting close to certification. (DaveG601XL) 2. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Finally getting close to certification. (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Finally getting close to certification. (Don Honabach) 4. 02:53 PM - Viking Engine (Thomas Blejwas) 5. 02:53 PM - Viking Engine (Thomas Blejwas) 6. 04:03 PM - Re: Viking Engine (Mark Hubelbank) 7. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Finally getting close to certification. (Paul Mulwitz) 8. 05:22 PM - Re: Viking Engine (Paul Mulwitz) 9. 05:35 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Viking Engine (Larry McFarland) 10. 07:07 PM - Re: Viking Engine (Mark Hubelbank) 11. 09:06 PM - Re: Viking Engine (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Finally getting close to certification. From: "DaveG601XL" Paul, Congratulations on getting your certification. I hope your first flight is as enjoyable as mine was. I will only add one caution about the responsive pitch control and how I personally witnessed a fellow 601XL builder almost conclude his first flight quite prematurely. When the elevator comes in trail, at around 35 MPH or so, pull the stick back another 1-2 inches and hold it there. Upon rotation, hold it there like a rock and don't move it until your are a good 100" above the ground. This other pilot popped the stick back at rotation speed, was a bit surprised at the fast pitch rate and pushed back down, slamming on the runway, pulled back again, and this time remained airborne. I have the video and it still scares me to watch it today. Now don't let me scare you. You will surely learn and get used to the pitch response quickly during your phase 1 flight testing. The first rotation is not the place you want to be surprised. Now to 2nd Mr. Austin's remarks, get in the cockpit and fly the bloody thing.. Dave -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 Upgraded 3/19/10 160+ hours and climbing! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345450#345450 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:03 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Finally getting close to certification. Hi Dave, Thanks for the advice. It sounds very good but I'm afraid I just don't fly the way you described. My style of flying is to use the controls to get the attitude I want without paying any attention at all to how much force or movement I experience on the controls. I think I can translate your excellent advice to my style of flying by saying I should raise the nose for take-off (rotate) and hold it in that position. That is the way I normally fly any plane. The only difference is the visual image I get from one plane to another. Some take off without any pitch change while others raise the nose a "couple of fingers". I spent a few hours this morning replacing all the inspection panels and other stuff that was removed for the inspection. I still need to do another round of taxi testing including using the other fuel tank, running the engine up to full power and holding it there for a couple of minutes (if it doesn't get too hot), checking carb heat and doing a magneto check. After all that I need to clean out the gascolator. Then it is really time for me to find nice weather and do the first flight. I really appreciate all the comments I have been getting from list members and also pilots at my field. I'm sure all will go well. It is not a big surprise that I am a little bit nervous over all this. I would be more worried if I wasn't. Paul Camas, WA On 7/8/2011 9:12 AM, DaveG601XL wrote: > Paul, > > Congratulations on getting your certification. I hope your first flight is as enjoyable as mine was. I will only add one caution about the responsive pitch control and how I personally witnessed a fellow 601XL builder almost conclude his first flight quite prematurely. When the elevator comes in trail, at around 35 MPH or so, pull the stick back another 1-2 inches and hold it there. Upon rotation, hold it there like a rock and don't move it until your are a good 100" above the ground. This other pilot popped the stick back at rotation speed, was a bit surprised at the fast pitch rate and pushed back down, slamming on the runway, pulled back again, and this time remained airborne. I have the video and it still scares me to watch it today. > > Now don't let me scare you. You will surely learn and get used to the pitch response quickly during your phase 1 flight testing. The first rotation is not the place you want to be surprised. > > Now to 2nd Mr. Austin's remarks, get in the cockpit and fly the bloody thing.. > > Dave > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 > First flight 7/24/08 > Upgraded 3/19/10 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:25 PM PST US From: Don Honabach Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Finally getting close to certification. Paul, Just my two cents ... One of the things that surprised me on my first flight was how the plane went from 'stuck to the ground' to what at the time seemed like an extremely high nose angle and aggressive climb rate. So high that I worried about stalling the plane on take off, and pushed down a bit too much, and then had to correct my over correction. I never hit the ground or anything like that, just didn't fully appreciate how sensitive the controls are (at least on my 601HDS). Took literally a few seconds to 'get that', and then I was fine. For what it is worth, now I love the fact that I can climb so quickly and the plane handles it great, but on first flight and still a pilot in Cessna mode, it took me by surprise. Congratulations! You are now part of a very small and elite club ;-) (...of people who are foolish enough to build their own plane, think they'd save any real money, and then are crazy enough to fly it - LOL!). Thanks, Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Finally getting close to certification. Hi Dave, Thanks for the advice. It sounds very good but I'm afraid I just don't fly the way you described. My style of flying is to use the controls to get the attitude I want without paying any attention at all to how much force or movement I experience on the controls. I think I can translate your excellent advice to my style of flying by saying I should raise the nose for take-off (rotate) and hold it in that position. That is the way I normally fly any plane. The only difference is the visual image I get from one plane to another. Some take off without any pitch change while others raise the nose a "couple of fingers". I spent a few hours this morning replacing all the inspection panels and other stuff that was removed for the inspection. I still need to do another round of taxi testing including using the other fuel tank, running the engine up to full power and holding it there for a couple of minutes (if it doesn't get too hot), checking carb heat and doing a magneto check. After all that I need to clean out the gascolator. Then it is really time for me to find nice weather and do the first flight. I really appreciate all the comments I have been getting from list members and also pilots at my field. I'm sure all will go well. It is not a big surprise that I am a little bit nervous over all this. I would be more worried if I wasn't. Paul Camas, WA On 7/8/2011 9:12 AM, DaveG601XL wrote: > Paul, > > Congratulations on getting your certification. I hope your first flight is as enjoyable as mine was. I will only add one caution about the responsive pitch control and how I personally witnessed a fellow 601XL builder almost conclude his first flight quite prematurely. When the elevator comes in trail, at around 35 MPH or so, pull the stick back another 1-2 inches and hold it there. Upon rotation, hold it there like a rock and don't move it until your are a good 100" above the ground. This other pilot popped the stick back at rotation speed, was a bit surprised at the fast pitch rate and pushed back down, slamming on the runway, pulled back again, and this time remained airborne. I have the video and it still scares me to watch it today. > > Now don't let me scare you. You will surely learn and get used to the pitch response quickly during your phase 1 flight testing. The first rotation is not the place you want to be surprised. > > Now to 2nd Mr. Austin's remarks, get in the cockpit and fly the bloody thing.. > > Dave > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 > First flight 7/24/08 > Upgraded 3/19/10 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:03 PM PST US From: Thomas Blejwas Subject: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine I-have ordered a-Viking Engine, which is a Honda Fit conversion.- Any one using =0Athis engine?- I've watched the installation video and I'm im pressed with the =0Acompleteness of the conversion.- Jan Eggenfellner has included some installation =0Ahardware, like a machined holder for the dua l fuel pumps, which I find an =0Aimprovement over what I've seen for UL ins tallations.- I'd really like to hear =0Aof any first-hand experience with the engine.- I'll be glad to share my =0Aexperiences with individuals in terested in a dialogue-after my December =0Adelivery.=0A=0ATom Blejwas=0A 12 Via Entrada=0ASandia Park, NM 87047-9686=0Atomblejwas@yahoo.com=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:03 PM PST US From: Thomas Blejwas Subject: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine I-have ordered a-Viking Engine, which is a Honda Fit conversion.- Any one using =0Athis engine?- I've watched the installation video and I'm im pressed with the =0Acompleteness of the conversion.- Jan Eggenfellner has included some installation =0Ahardware, like a machined holder for the dua l fuel pumps, which I find an =0Aimprovement over what I've seen for UL ins tallations.- I'd really like to hear =0Aof any first-hand experience with the engine.- I'll be glad to share my =0Aexperiences with individuals in terested in a dialogue-after my December =0Adelivery.=0A=0ATom Blejwas=0A 12 Via Entrada=0ASandia Park, NM 87047-9686=0Atomblejwas@yahoo.com=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:12 PM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine Tom, If this is a 601XL you are planning to put it in, I was going back and forth with Viking on the engine mount and resulting W&B. It sounded to me like the default engine mount would position the engine too far aft and result in a CG that was a bit too far aft. Other than that, I am seriously considering swapping my Jabiru 3300 sometime in the next year. On 07/08/2011 5:50 PM, Thomas Blejwas wrote: > I have ordered a Viking Engine, which is a Honda Fit conversion. > Anyone using this engine? I've watched the installation video and I'm > impressed with the completeness of the conversion. Jan Eggenfellner > has included some installation hardware, like a machined holder for > the dual fuel pumps, which I find an improvement over what I've seen > for UL installations. I'd really like to hear of any first-hand > experience with the engine. I'll be glad to share my experiences with > individuals interested in a dialogue after my December delivery. > Tom Blejwas > 12 Via Entrada > Sandia Park, NM 87047-9686 > tomblejwas@yahoo.com > * > > > * -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:47 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Finally getting close to certification. Hi Don, Thanks for the message. I got a good little snicker out of it. In fact, I didn't build my plane with the idea of saving money. I just really like building stuff. I am a retired engineer, and it is that "Building stuff" view of the world that made me an engineer in the first place. I don't miss having one of those really annoying bosses and I am fortunate in the financial arena, but I really need to build stuff to keep my sanity. (My wife also wants me to be building something all the time. She is afraid if I don't have a hobby like that she will become my hobby.) I do feel a sense of accomplishment getting my airworthiness certificate. It has been a long hard battle that started over 6 years ago. I never had a completion schedule but I thought it would be more like one year than six. One of the points that confused me (and lots of others, I suspect) is the build time estimates all the kit builders advertise. What they don't tell you is when you complete the project ZAC said takes 500 hours you don't have an airplane to fly away. You have a stripped down airframe. You still need a power plant, instruments, upholstery, etc., etc. The airframe might be a big part of the project but there is still a great deal to do when the airframe is completed. I am looking forward to the first flight. It might have been tomorrow morning, but I wound up having a long nap after lunch today instead of finishing up my ground testing requirements. The first flight will happen soon -- I just don't know when. Fortunately, I am not a pilot in Cessna mode. I would be very disappointed indeed if my plane behaves like a Spam Can. I have been flying a high-end LSA for a couple of years. I have also had a couple of short flights in other people's XLs including doing one takeoff and landing from the right seat. I had a little trouble on that flight but I think that was because my seat was too low for me to see the engine cowl and I had no flight instruments on my side of the panel. That was a couple of years ago before I grounded mine and took it apart. Still, I don't expect any surprises on my first flight. Of course, that assumes nothing breaks or fails to work. Thanks again, Paul On 7/8/2011 2:40 PM, Don Honabach wrote: > Paul, > > Just my two cents ... > > One of the things that surprised me on my first flight was how the plane went from 'stuck to the ground' to what at the time seemed like an extremely high nose angle and aggressive climb rate. So high that I worried about stalling the plane on take off, and pushed down a bit too much, and then had to correct my over correction. I never hit the ground or anything like that, just didn't fully appreciate how sensitive the controls are (at least on my 601HDS). Took literally a few seconds to 'get that', and then I was fine. > > For what it is worth, now I love the fact that I can climb so quickly and the plane handles it great, but on first flight and still a pilot in Cessna mode, it took me by surprise. > > Congratulations! You are now part of a very small and elite club;-) (...of people who are foolish enough to build their own plane, think they'd save any real money, and then are crazy enough to fly it - LOL!). > > Thanks, > Don > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:24 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine Hi Mark, I was surprised to hear you want to trade your Jabiru aircraft engine for an auto conversion. Have you been having problems with the Jabiru? Paul On 7/8/2011 4:00 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote: > Tom, > If this is a 601XL you are planning to put it in, I was going back > and forth with Viking on the engine mount and resulting W&B. It > sounded to me like the default engine mount would position the engine > too far aft and result in a CG that was a bit too far aft. Other than > that, I am seriously considering swapping my Jabiru 3300 sometime in > the next year. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:11 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: RE: [Probable Spam] Re: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine Tom, This engine was shown at 2010 Sun n Fun. The specs suggested perhaps the engine would have to run a little higher rpm than most re-drives because of the peak HP curve. I had a Honda Fit for 2 years and loved the cars performance. Not so much muscle, but it didn't mind the high rpms, was extremely reliable and well made. The attached picture shows this displayed Viking engine in a 601HDS. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Hubelbank Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 6:00 PM Subject: [Probable Spam] Re: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine Tom, If this is a 601XL you are planning to put it in, I was going back and forth with Viking on the engine mount and resulting W&B. It sounded to me like the default engine mount would position the engine too far aft and result in a CG that was a bit too far aft. Other than that, I am seriously considering swapping my Jabiru 3300 sometime in the next year. On 07/08/2011 5:50 PM, Thomas Blejwas wrote: I have ordered a Viking Engine, which is a Honda Fit conversion. Anyone using this engine? I've watched the installation video and I'm impressed with the completeness of the conversion. Jan Eggenfellner has included some installation hardware, like a machined holder for the dual fuel pumps, which I find an improvement over what I've seen for UL installations. I'd really like to hear of any first-hand experience with the engine. I'll be glad to share my experiences with individuals interested in a dialogue after my December delivery. Tom Blejwas 12 Via Entrada Sandia Park, NM 87047-9686 tomblejwas@yahoo.com -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:14 PM PST US From: Mark Hubelbank Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine Paul, I have a long list. There are many Jabiru engines that are happly flying but there seems to be a certain element of hit and miss. The engines are quite intollarent of being overheated. That is not good for any engine but the Jabiru heads are especially sensitive. In the same area, the Jabiru supplied oil cooler may not be sufficient. If your engine is quite new, it may not be affected by the through bolt service bulletin. Other things like noisy ignition and wimpy alternators, one can work around. Some are happy with the Bing carbs. I found it to be unacceptable but that can be replaced as well. It is the head design and through bolt issue that is getting to me to look at a design that a real professional team engineered. My thought is that an engine that can take the beating of outboard motor service is probably well designed. The fisherman I see go to near full throttle for an hour or so to get to their spot. stop, (no letting it cool off) and then do the same thing on the way back. I must say my use of an outboard was probably worse, I used one for ski towing so it was effectively at full throttle all the time. About the nastiest thing one can do to an engine, yet they expect their engines to last a long time and apparently they generally do. That said, you should look to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/ and look at all the history to get an ideal of how to best care for the Jabiru engine. It can be used quite well if you are careful with it. On 07/08/2011 8:19 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > I was surprised to hear you want to trade your Jabiru aircraft engine > for an auto conversion. Have you been having problems with the Jabiru? > > Paul > > On 7/8/2011 4:00 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote: >> Tom, >> If this is a 601XL you are planning to put it in, I was going >> back and forth with Viking on the engine mount and resulting W&B. It >> sounded to me like the default engine mount would position the engine >> too far aft and result in a CG that was a bit too far aft. Other >> than that, I am seriously considering swapping my Jabiru 3300 >> sometime in the next year. > > -- Mark Hubelbank NorthEast Monitoring 2 Clock Tower Place Suite 555 Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA mhubel@nemon.com 978-443-3955 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:39 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Viking Engine Hi Mark, Thanks for the information. I guess I have been living in a dream world. Up until very recently I had heard about nothing but satisfied owners of Jabiru engines. I guess it makes sense that you shouldn't overheat an engine. The outboard motors are probably water cooled, so overheating is not a real issue. Air cooled engines are a different matter. The Jabiru 3300 generates a lot of power in a very small space. I guess it is not a big surprise that heat and overheating are real issues. Thanks for the link to the Yahoo group. I just signed up. Good luck, Paul On 7/8/2011 7:04 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote: > > Paul, > I have a long list. There are many Jabiru engines that are happly > flying but there seems to be a certain element of hit and miss. The > engines are quite intollarent of being overheated. That is not good > for any engine but the Jabiru heads are especially sensitive. In the > same area, the Jabiru supplied oil cooler may not be sufficient. If > your engine is quite new, it may not be affected by the through bolt > service bulletin. Other things like noisy ignition and wimpy > alternators, one can work around. Some are happy with the Bing carbs. > I found it to be unacceptable but that can be replaced as well. > It is the head design and through bolt issue that is getting to me > to look at a design that a real professional team engineered. My > thought is that an engine that can take the beating of outboard motor > service is probably well designed. The fisherman I see go to near full > throttle for an hour or so to get to their spot. stop, (no letting it > cool off) and then do the same thing on the way back. I must say my > use of an outboard was probably worse, I used one for ski towing so it > was effectively at full throttle all the time. About the nastiest > thing one can do to an engine, yet they expect their engines to last a > long time and apparently they generally do. > That said, you should look to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/ and look at all the > history to get an ideal of how to best care for the Jabiru engine. It > can be used quite well if you are careful with it. > > > On 07/08/2011 8:19 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> I was surprised to hear you want to trade your Jabiru aircraft engine >> for an auto conversion. Have you been having problems with the Jabiru? >> >> Paul >> >> On 7/8/2011 4:00 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote: >>> Tom, >>> If this is a 601XL you are planning to put it in, I was going >>> back and forth with Viking on the engine mount and resulting W&B. It >>> sounded to me like the default engine mount would position the >>> engine too far aft and result in a CG that was a bit too far aft. >>> Other than that, I am seriously considering swapping my Jabiru 3300 >>> sometime in the next year. >> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.