Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:45 AM - Gear (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net)
2. 11:03 AM - Re: First Flight. (Don Honabach)
3. 11:08 AM - Re: Gear (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 11:13 AM - Re: First Flight. (Paul Mulwitz)
5. 11:27 AM - Re: First Flight. (Don Honabach)
6. 12:01 PM - Re: First Flight. (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 12:04 PM - Re: Gear (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
8. 12:20 PM - Re: First Flight. (Craig Payne)
9. 12:34 PM - Re: First Flight. ()
10. 03:06 PM - Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise (mhubel)
11. 04:21 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 05:12 PM - Re: Gear (Bryan Martin)
13. 05:44 PM - Re: Gear (Paul Mulwitz)
14. 05:52 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise (Mark Hubelbank)
15. 06:22 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise (Paul Mulwitz)
16. 06:32 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise (Jeff Davidson)
17. 07:27 PM - Re: Gear (zodiac601)
18. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Gear (Paul Mulwitz)
19. 11:47 PM - Re: Re: Gear (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Message 1
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Paul
I built my 601 with the gear flat side forward. The CG was o.k. normally but with
a passenger and light fuel the CG would go to far aft. ( you might check that
on your A/C ). CG goes aft as fuel is burned. With a 200 pounder in the right
seat I would have to land with about 14 gal. of fuel to stay in range. I also
did not like having to get over 50 mph before lifting the nose. The nose would
also slam down with the CG forward ( full fuel ). I turned it around and it
made all the difference in the world. I can hold the nose off on landing, raise
it on T.O. and let the plane fly itself off when it gets ready. The CG is
also better - I can not aft load it out of range without going over gross - which
I do not do. The prototype photos in our kit showed the gear flat side forward
so that is how we installed it on two aircraft. We both have turned them
around when doing the "B mod".
much, much better.
Bobby
120.4 hrs.
601 "B"
3300 Jab.
Message 2
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Paul,
>> I found it difficult to hold the Zodiac in the exact attitude I wanted.
On my 601HDS, I found that it was sensitive to altitude changes as well. One thing
I noticed is that the stick is very easy to bias with your hand. In all fair
weather cases, whenever altitude hold is an issue for me, I always find that
I'm pushing or pulling the stick and not noticing since the controls are so
light. I've eventually found that steering with my hand holding the bottom part
of the Y leads to super easy altitude holds, as does just using my finger tips
...
Congrats on your first flight!!!
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: First Flight.
Hi Ron,
Yes, it was worth all the difficulties. I flew a plane today that would have never
existed if not for my efforts over the last six years. That makes it the
longest project I have ever done. (Well, I've managed to stay married to the
same woman for 41 years . . .)
I can't really say how the Zodiac compares to the Echo. Today's flight was not
my best. The turbulence and my lack of familiarity with the actual plane meant
it was a pretty sloppy flight - at least by my standards. In the large scheme
of things I guess the two planes are very similar. I'll try to do a detailed
analysis of differences I noticed.
It took considerably more runway to get into the air than the Echo takes, and still
the nose jumped up rather than a nice smooth transition from rolling down
the runway to a nice climb profile. Takeoff (with
flaps) in the Echo is a matter of smoothly adding power and rotating as soon as
the power is in. With just one person it lifts off in around
300 feet of ground roll. I would estimate the runway needed today to be closer
to 600 feet in the same configuration and with a lot more horsepower available.
One noticeable difference is the position of the main gear. The Echo has the main
gear located nearer to the CG than the Zodiac does. On landing it is very
easy to keep the Echo's nose gear in the air until almost stopped. Holding the
nose up after landing the Zodiac was a lot harder. I managed to do it for
a few yards (maybe 20 or so) but the nose really wants to come down. I think
this has a lot to do with the low wing vs. high wing configuration. If the main
gear were in the same relative place on the Zodiac then stepping on the step
to climb up on the wing would cause the tail to hit the ground. I've seen some
designs that deal with this problem by putting the step in front of the wing
instead of behind it.
I think the Zodiac has a higher climb rate. This is only a guess since the incorrect
tachometer kept me from using full throttle and having consistent power.
A Jabiru powered Zodiac should climb a lot faster than a Rotax powered Echo.
There is 30 percent more power available to convert to climb rate.
Visibility of the surrounding area is much better in the Zodiac. The bubble canopy
means everything above the horizon is easy to see and only the wings and
nose interfere with the view downward. In the Echo you sit with your head at
the same level as the wing roots. That means you can't see much of anything to
the side because the wings are in the way. You really need to roll right to
look for traffic before making a left turn in the Echo. This is not an issue
in the Zodiac.
I found it difficult to hold the Zodiac in the exact attitude I wanted.
This is just probably a "Training" issue. I also had difficulty doing turns at
the bank angle I wanted. I tended to roll too steeply into the turn.
Oh . . . and the Jabiru sounds so much better than the Rotax engine. It starts
smoothly while the whole world shakes and rattles when starting a Rotax. After
you get it going, the Rotax seems to have a significant ancestry in the sewing
machine community while the Jabiru sounds just great. Of course, this is
just my opinion and I am certainly biased.
I suspect I will be able to do a much better comparison after I have logged a few
more hours in the Zodiac - especially if I get a nice calm day to fly.
Paul
On 7/9/2011 5:20 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:
>
> Paul, Congratulations!
>
> I hope it was worth all the difficulties.
>
> So how does it fly compared to the Echo? Do you think the Echo
> prepared you for first flight?
>
> Ron
Message 3
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Hi Bobby,
I'm confused. I thought the flat side forward moves the wheels
forward. That way the wheels are closer to the CG and raising the nose
should be easier. Did I miss something?
I appreciate your story. Which engine do you have?
Paul
On 7/11/2011 7:42 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote:
> Paul
> I built my 601 with the gear flat side forward. The CG was o.k.
> normally but with a passenger and light fuel the CG would go to far
> aft. ( you might check that on your A/C ). CG goes aft as fuel is
> burned. With a 200 pounder in the right seat I would have to land with
> about 14 gal. of fuel to stay in range. I also did not like having to
> get over 50 mph before lifting the nose. The nose would also slam down
> with the CG forward ( full fuel ). I turned it around and it made all
> the difference in the world. I can hold the nose off on landing, raise
> it on T.O. and let the plane fly itself off when it gets ready. The CG
> is also better - I can not aft load it out of range without going over
> gross - which I do not do. The prototype photos in our kit showed the
> gear flat side forward so that is how we installed it on two aircraft.
> We both have turned them around when doing the "B mod".
> much, much better.
>
> Bobby
> 120.4 hrs.
> 601 "B"
> 3300 Jab.
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight. |
Thanks, Don.
That sounds like good advice. When I had non-pilots try to fly the
Tecnam I had I told them it was a 2 finger airplane. That tended to
work quite well.
I'm sure I will be fine with a few more hours. I am just paying the
price now for not getting a checkout before flying my own plane. It was
unreasonable for me to think I could just jump in and fly it like I was
born in it. I don't feel like I had any safety issues to fix, just a
lack of perfection on the first try.
Paul
On 7/11/2011 11:02 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
> Paul,
>
>>> >> I found it difficult to hold the Zodiac in the exact attitude I wanted.
> On my 601HDS, I found that it was sensitive to altitude changes as well. One
thing I noticed is that the stick is very easy to bias with your hand. In all
fair weather cases, whenever altitude hold is an issue for me, I always find that
I'm pushing or pulling the stick and not noticing since the controls are so
light. I've eventually found that steering with my hand holding the bottom part
of the Y leads to super easy altitude holds, as does just using my finger
tips ...
>
> Congrats on your first flight!!!
>
> Don
Message 5
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Hey Paul,
Where are you based? Probably too close to do your 40 hours and go to Oshkosh this
year for you (???). Any thoughts on flying out next year?
BTW, took me ~11 years to finish my 601HDS. I thought it was funny that you hinted
that 6 years was a 'long time'. For me, you are Mr. Speedy ;-) I'm still
trying to figure out how I managed to take a '400 hour' build time and stretch
it to 11 years!!!
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: First Flight.
Thanks, Don.
That sounds like good advice. When I had non-pilots try to fly the Tecnam I had
I told them it was a 2 finger airplane. That tended to work quite well.
I'm sure I will be fine with a few more hours. I am just paying the price now
for not getting a checkout before flying my own plane. It was unreasonable for
me to think I could just jump in and fly it like I was born in it. I don't
feel like I had any safety issues to fix, just a lack of perfection on the first
try.
Paul
On 7/11/2011 11:02 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
> Paul,
>
>>> >> I found it difficult to hold the Zodiac in the exact attitude I wanted.
> On my 601HDS, I found that it was sensitive to altitude changes as well. One
thing I noticed is that the stick is very easy to bias with your hand. In all
fair weather cases, whenever altitude hold is an issue for me, I always find that
I'm pushing or pulling the stick and not noticing since the controls are so
light. I've eventually found that steering with my hand holding the bottom part
of the Y leads to super easy altitude holds, as does just using my finger
tips ...
>
> Congrats on your first flight!!!
>
> Don
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight. |
Hi Don,
I am indeed going to Oshkosh this year. I will not be flying my Zodiac
there. I'm taking Delta Airlines to Appleton.
My Zodiac will probably be ready to fly to OSH next year, but I'm not
sure I will. It is around 2500 miles each way. That is a big trip in a
seat that fits more like a suit of clothes than a lounge chair.
I originally decided to go because I had a lunch date with Sabrina, but
she seems to be mad at me about something or other and is giving me the
teenaged-girl cold shoulder. I guess I'll have to find other folks to
have lunch with.
I signed up for the electric symposium again. I went to the one last
year and didn't learn much of value for a home builder considering
building an electric powered plane. Perhaps this year's effort will be
more on target. At last year's symposium I did get talked into joining
the ASTM F37 committee which deals with LSA standards. That has been
interesting - to say the least.
I'll be accessing email in the evenings while at OSH, so if anybody
wants to get together for lunch (or to beat me up for all my
transgressions over the last few years) then email is the way to contact
me. I also ordered tickets for the Heintz dinner Wednesday night but
I'm not sure I will have the nerve to go. Perhaps if I find some body
armor to wear . . .
Paul
Camas, WA
On 7/11/2011 11:26 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
> Hey Paul,
>
> Where are you based? Probably too close to do your 40 hours and go to Oshkosh
this year for you (???). Any thoughts on flying out next year?
>
> BTW, took me ~11 years to finish my 601HDS. I thought it was funny that you hinted
that 6 years was a 'long time'. For me, you are Mr. Speedy;-) I'm still
trying to figure out how I managed to take a '400 hour' build time and stretch
it to 11 years!!!
>
> Don
Message 7
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It also wouldn't change the CG of the aircraft by much at all. It does help
rotate the aircraft for take-off but the actual CG in flight would remain
the same or am I missing something?
I had an airplane I did the upgrade to that had a 2 inch spacer on the nose
gear and when I did the weight and balance I checked it with the nose high
(with spacer) weight on the ground and then leveled it and weighed it
again for the true cg and what I found was the 2 inch spacer on the ground
shifted the CG 65 lbs aft but when leveled the 65 lbs shifted forward. But what
this did was allow the pilot to hold the nose off better than I had seen
on any 601 yet. The point is the spacer has no effect after the plane is
airborne but a big effect on the ground.
jeff
In a message dated 7/11/2011 2:09:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
psm@att.net writes:
Hi Bobby,
I'm confused. I thought the flat side forward moves the wheels forward.
That way the wheels are closer to the CG and raising the nose should be
easier. Did I miss something?
I appreciate your story. Which engine do you have?
Paul
On 7/11/2011 7:42 AM, _BobbyPaulk@comcast.net_
(mailto:BobbyPaulk@comcast.net) wrote:
Paul
I built my 601 with the gear flat side forward. The CG was o.k. normally
but with a passenger and light fuel the CG would go to far aft. ( you might
check that on your A/C ). CG goes aft as fuel is burned. With a 200 pounder
in the right seat I would have to land with about 14 gal. of fuel to stay
in range. I also did not like having to get over 50 mph before lifting
the nose. The nose would also slam down with the CG forward ( full fuel ). I
turned it around and it made all the difference in the world. I can hold the
nose off on landing, raise it on T.O. and let the plane fly itself off
when it gets ready. The CG is also better - I can not aft load it out of range
without going over gross - which I do not do. The prototype photos in our
kit showed the gear flat side forward so that is how we installed it on two
aircraft. We both have turned them around when doing the "B mod".
much, much better.
Bobby
120.4 hrs.
601 "B"
3300 Jab.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 8
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Paul, go to the dinner (I am). People are much friendlier in person than on
the Internet.
-- Craig
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight. |
In my self-preservation mode, I want to say that I also will be there,
wearing a bright orange vest, emblazoned "I AM NOT PAUL MULWITZ, please
do not pelt me with rotten fruit!" emblazoned on front, back, and
shoulder patches.
Seriously, Oshkosh is a mellow thing, and, best thing, a great
opportunity to get detailed verbal and thorough information on how
somebody mastered that *&^%$#part that just won't fit right, or how some
ad lib engineering made something better. Also, good for motivation when
you start thinking "Zenith one, me, zero".
Paul R
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz<mailto:psm@att.net>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: First Flight.
<psm@att.net<mailto:psm@att.net>>
Hi Don,
I am indeed going to Oshkosh this year. I will not be flying my
Zodiac
there. I'm taking Delta Airlines to Appleton.
My Zodiac will probably be ready to fly to OSH next year, but I'm not
sure I will. It is around 2500 miles each way. That is a big trip in
a
seat that fits more like a suit of clothes than a lounge chair.
I originally decided to go because I had a lunch date with Sabrina,
but
she seems to be mad at me about something or other and is giving me
the
teenaged-girl cold shoulder. I guess I'll have to find other folks to
have lunch with.
I signed up for the electric symposium again. I went to the one last
year and didn't learn much of value for a home builder considering
building an electric powered plane. Perhaps this year's effort will
be
more on target. At last year's symposium I did get talked into
joining
the ASTM F37 committee which deals with LSA standards. That has been
interesting - to say the least.
I'll be accessing email in the evenings while at OSH, so if anybody
wants to get together for lunch (or to beat me up for all my
transgressions over the last few years) then email is the way to
contact
me. I also ordered tickets for the Heintz dinner Wednesday night but
I'm not sure I will have the nerve to go. Perhaps if I find some body
armor to wear . . .
Paul
Camas, WA
On 7/11/2011 11:26 AM, Don Honabach wrote:
> Hey Paul,
>
> Where are you based? Probably too close to do your 40 hours and go
to Oshkosh this year for you (???). Any thoughts on flying out next
year?
>
> BTW, took me ~11 years to finish my 601HDS. I thought it was funny
that you hinted that 6 years was a 'long time'. For me, you are Mr.
Speedy;-) I'm still trying to figure out how I managed to take a '400
hour' build time and stretch it to 11 years!!!
>
> Don
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise |
I wonder how others have faired with the Jabiru 3300 in the 601XL airframe.
I find that even doing everything right, - oil at bottom of dipstick range, 4-5
inches of H2O pressure across the oil cooler and the same on the cylinder heads
I have oil temps of 220F with a OAT of 65F at 4500 FT and 6.5 GPH (which is
probably about 70% power). Any attempt to run the power even slightly higher
results in 230+ temps. At lower altitudes where the OAT is higher, the problem
is worse.
Then there is the ignition. I have put in Magnacore suppression wire on the magnetos.
The wire to the plugs seems to be a high quality suppression wire. There
are ferrite cores on every wire. While it is much better than the "as supplied
by Jabiru" level, it is still not acceptable for hearing ATC at the edges of
their normal hand off range.
I have isolated the radio and tried running it on its own battery (no effect).
Disconnecting the antenna wire eliminates all noise so it is all coming in through
the antenna. I have removed the P leads on the mags and verified they have
no effect. All the noise seems to be coming through the high voltage side.
--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
70 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345960#345960
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise |
Hi Mark,
I wonder how big the ground wire is between your engine and central
ground point. Mine is a piece of copper braid that is about 1 inch
across folded (it is actually a tube lying flat). That is a lot of
copper. I have a smaller piece of copper braid going from the central
ground point, on my firewall, to the metal instrument panel.
I can't give you a good explanation of why I did this, but a couple of
decades designing digital electronics for production taught me you just
can't have too much ground current capacity.
You can get copper braid wire (it looks like silver because of solder
dipping) at any amateur radio supplier.
I don't have much experience yet with this plane but the radio seems to
work just fine.
One other nasty possibility is that there just isn't a good shield in
your radio. This is not easy to fix. (Mine is a Garmin SL-30.)
Paul
XL just entered flight test.
On 7/11/2011 3:04 PM, mhubel wrote:
> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel@nemon.com>
>
> I wonder how others have faired with the Jabiru 3300 in the 601XL airframe.
>
> I find that even doing everything right, - oil at bottom of dipstick range, 4-5
inches of H2O pressure across the oil cooler and the same on the cylinder heads
I have oil temps of 220F with a OAT of 65F at 4500 FT and 6.5 GPH (which
is probably about 70% power). Any attempt to run the power even slightly higher
results in 230+ temps. At lower altitudes where the OAT is higher, the problem
is worse.
>
> Then there is the ignition. I have put in Magnacore suppression wire on the magnetos.
The wire to the plugs seems to be a high quality suppression wire. There
are ferrite cores on every wire. While it is much better than the "as supplied
by Jabiru" level, it is still not acceptable for hearing ATC at the edges
of their normal hand off range.
>
> I have isolated the radio and tried running it on its own battery (no effect).
Disconnecting the antenna wire eliminates all noise so it is all coming in through
the antenna. I have removed the P leads on the mags and verified they
have no effect. All the noise seems to be coming through the high voltage side.
>
> --------
> Mark Hubelbank
> N708HU
> CH601XL
> Jabiru 3300
> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
> Sensenich ground adj prop.
> 70 hr TAF
> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345960#345960
>
>
Message 12
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What you describe hear is nearly exactly what I experienced except I originally
had my main gear installed with the flat side forward and then turned it around
flat side aft. Putting the flat side aft moves the main wheel assemblies (tires,
tubes, wheels, brakes and axles) about 4 1/2 inches further forward and
the CG of the 40 lb main spring about 2 inches forward. This puts the mains closer
to the aircraft's CG so it requires less elevator force to rotate for takeoff
and less force to hold the nose off during landing.
I think maybe you misstated this?
On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:42 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote:
> Paul
> I built my 601 with the gear flat side forward. The CG was o.k. normally but
with a passenger and light fuel the CG would go to far aft. ( you might check
that on your A/C ). CG goes aft as fuel is burned. With a 200 pounder in the right
seat I would have to land with about 14 gal. of fuel to stay in range. I
also did not like having to get over 50 mph before lifting the nose. The nose
would also slam down with the CG forward ( full fuel ). I turned it around and
it made all the difference in the world. I can hold the nose off on landing,
raise it on T.O. and let the plane fly itself off when it gets ready. The CG
is also better - I can not aft load it out of range without going over gross -
which I do not do. The prototype photos in our kit showed the gear flat side
forward so that is how we installed it on two aircraft. We both have turned them
around when doing the "B mod".
> much, much better.
>
> Bobby
> 120.4 hrs.
> 601 "B"
> 3300 Jab.
>
Message 13
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I'm really having a hard time with this.
I think the issue in my mind is whether or not the spring is bent at 90
degree angle to the edge. That would put the wheels closer to the flat
side than the angled side. On the other hand, if the bend is made at an
angle (to the center line of the spring) then it would all depend on
what the angle was.
Paul
On 7/11/2011 5:08 PM, Bryan Martin wrote:
> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Bryan Martin<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> What you describe hear is nearly exactly what I experienced except I originally
had my main gear installed with the flat side forward and then turned it around
flat side aft. Putting the flat side aft moves the main wheel assemblies
(tires, tubes, wheels, brakes and axles) about 4 1/2 inches further forward and
the CG of the 40 lb main spring about 2 inches forward. This puts the mains
closer to the aircraft's CG so it requires less elevator force to rotate for takeoff
and less force to hold the nose off during landing.
>
> I think maybe you misstated this?
>
> On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:42 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Paul
>> I built my 601 with the gear flat side forward. The CG was o.k. normally but
with a passenger and light fuel the CG would go to far aft. ( you might check
that on your A/C ). CG goes aft as fuel is burned. With a 200 pounder in the
right seat I would have to land with about 14 gal. of fuel to stay in range.
I also did not like having to get over 50 mph before lifting the nose. The nose
would also slam down with the CG forward ( full fuel ). I turned it around and
it made all the difference in the world. I can hold the nose off on landing,
raise it on T.O. and let the plane fly itself off when it gets ready. The CG
is also better - I can not aft load it out of range without going over gross
- which I do not do. The prototype photos in our kit showed the gear flat side
forward so that is how we installed it on two aircraft. We both have turned them
around when doing the "B mod".
>> much, much better.
>>
>> Bobby
>> 120.4 hrs.
>> 601 "B"
>> 3300 Jab.
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise |
Paul,
The ground is a short run of #4 wire. I also had the thought that
the ground might be making it worse. The only thing that your
installation might point out is that you have a SL-30. I suspect that
Garmin had a noise spike suppressor in the design. It is unlikely that
the radio I have has that. A really good spike suppression circuit can
reduce the noise 20 db or so. I think I will try an experiment with a
King handheld that I have access to. Even if that works, it does not
eliminate the source of the noise, it just masks it.
On 07/11/2011 7:18 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I wonder how big the ground wire is between your engine and central
> ground point. Mine is a piece of copper braid that is about 1 inch
> across folded (it is actually a tube lying flat). That is a lot of
> copper. I have a smaller piece of copper braid going from the central
> ground point, on my firewall, to the metal instrument panel.
>
> I can't give you a good explanation of why I did this, but a couple of
> decades designing digital electronics for production taught me you
> just can't have too much ground current capacity.
>
> You can get copper braid wire (it looks like silver because of solder
> dipping) at any amateur radio supplier.
>
> I don't have much experience yet with this plane but the radio seems
> to work just fine.
>
> One other nasty possibility is that there just isn't a good shield in
> your radio. This is not easy to fix. (Mine is a Garmin SL-30.)
>
> Paul
> XL just entered flight test.
>
> On 7/11/2011 3:04 PM, mhubel wrote:
>> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel@nemon.com>
>>
>> I wonder how others have faired with the Jabiru 3300 in the 601XL
>> airframe.
>>
>> I find that even doing everything right, - oil at bottom of dipstick
>> range, 4-5 inches of H2O pressure across the oil cooler and the same
>> on the cylinder heads I have oil temps of 220F with a OAT of 65F at
>> 4500 FT and 6.5 GPH (which is probably about 70% power). Any attempt
>> to run the power even slightly higher results in 230+ temps. At lower
>> altitudes where the OAT is higher, the problem is worse.
>>
>> Then there is the ignition. I have put in Magnacore suppression wire
>> on the magnetos. The wire to the plugs seems to be a high quality
>> suppression wire. There are ferrite cores on every wire. While it is
>> much better than the "as supplied by Jabiru" level, it is still not
>> acceptable for hearing ATC at the edges of their normal hand off range.
>>
>> I have isolated the radio and tried running it on its own battery (no
>> effect). Disconnecting the antenna wire eliminates all noise so it is
>> all coming in through the antenna. I have removed the P leads on the
>> mags and verified they have no effect. All the noise seems to be
>> coming through the high voltage side.
>>
>> --------
>> Mark Hubelbank
>> N708HU
>> CH601XL
>> Jabiru 3300
>> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
>> Sensenich ground adj prop.
>> 70 hr TAF
>> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345960#345960
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel@nemon.com
978-443-3955
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise |
Hi Mark,
I think a 1 inch wide copper braid would produce a lot better ground -
particularly for RF noise - than a #4 round wire cable. The copper in
your wire would provide plenty of DC current capacity for the starter
motor, but RF noise might jump right around it.
There is a phenomenon called "Skin effect" that makes high frequency
signals migrate away from the center of a conductor. The higher the
frequency the more it stays away from the center. For very high
frequency noise - around the 120 MHz used by your comm radio this would
make your round wire look like a thin tube.
You can test my idea relatively easily with a big automotive jumper
cable attached between the engine and ground point on your firewall.
If this makes the noise change at all it will give a clue to the real
problem you are experiencing. You can coil up the jumper cable and add
a few tie-wraps to keep it out of the way.
Ground problems have always been the hardest ones for me to find (along
with all my colleagues). Of course this presumes you are not dealing
with a software problem. Those accounted for about 99 percent of all my
field problems.
Paul
On 7/11/2011 5:50 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:
>
> Paul,
> The ground is a short run of #4 wire. I also had the thought that
> the ground might be making it worse. The only thing that your
> installation might point out is that you have a SL-30. I suspect that
> Garmin had a noise spike suppressor in the design. It is unlikely that
> the radio I have has that. A really good spike suppression circuit can
> reduce the noise 20 db or so. I think I will try an experiment with a
> King handheld that I have access to. Even if that works, it does not
> eliminate the source of the noise, it just masks it.
>
> On 07/11/2011 7:18 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I wonder how big the ground wire is between your engine and central
>> ground point. Mine is a piece of copper braid that is about 1 inch
>> across folded (it is actually a tube lying flat). That is a lot of
>> copper. I have a smaller piece of copper braid going from the
>> central ground point, on my firewall, to the metal instrument panel.
>>
>> I can't give you a good explanation of why I did this, but a couple
>> of decades designing digital electronics for production taught me you
>> just can't have too much ground current capacity.
>>
>> You can get copper braid wire (it looks like silver because of solder
>> dipping) at any amateur radio supplier.
>>
>> I don't have much experience yet with this plane but the radio seems
>> to work just fine.
>>
>> One other nasty possibility is that there just isn't a good shield in
>> your radio. This is not easy to fix. (Mine is a Garmin SL-30.)
>>
>> Paul
>> XL just entered flight test.
>>
>> On 7/11/2011 3:04 PM, mhubel wrote:
>>> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel@nemon.com>
>>>
>>> I wonder how others have faired with the Jabiru 3300 in the 601XL
>>> airframe.
>>>
>>> I find that even doing everything right, - oil at bottom of dipstick
>>> range, 4-5 inches of H2O pressure across the oil cooler and the same
>>> on the cylinder heads I have oil temps of 220F with a OAT of 65F at
>>> 4500 FT and 6.5 GPH (which is probably about 70% power). Any attempt
>>> to run the power even slightly higher results in 230+ temps. At
>>> lower altitudes where the OAT is higher, the problem is worse.
>>>
>>> Then there is the ignition. I have put in Magnacore suppression wire
>>> on the magnetos. The wire to the plugs seems to be a high quality
>>> suppression wire. There are ferrite cores on every wire. While it is
>>> much better than the "as supplied by Jabiru" level, it is still not
>>> acceptable for hearing ATC at the edges of their normal hand off range.
>>>
>>> I have isolated the radio and tried running it on its own battery
>>> (no effect). Disconnecting the antenna wire eliminates all noise so
>>> it is all coming in through the antenna. I have removed the P leads
>>> on the mags and verified they have no effect. All the noise seems
>>> to be coming through the high voltage side.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Mark Hubelbank
>>> N708HU
>>> CH601XL
>>> Jabiru 3300
>>> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
>>> Sensenich ground adj prop.
>>> 70 hr TAF
>>> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345960#345960
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise |
Mark,
For the high oil temperatures, you might look at the air intake in the cowling
for the oil cooler. For mine, I fashioned an air plenum to force the air into
the oil cooler. I used Aluminum on the sides of the opening in the Jabiru cowling
and a thick piece of rubber baffling riveted to an L that is attached to
the rear two oil cooler attachments. The end result is that air can't go past
the cooler either under it or around to the side. Just a suggestion.
Jeff Davidson
-----Original Message-----
>From: mhubel <mhubel@nemon.com>
>Sent: Jul 11, 2011 6:04 PM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith601-List: Jabiru 3300 cooling and noise
>
>
>I wonder how otheattached tors have do not archive faired with the Jabiru 3300
in the 601XL airframe.
>
>I find that even doing everything right, - oil at bottom of dipstick range, 4-5
inches of H2O pressure across the oil cooler and the same on the cylinder heads
I have oil temps of 220F with a OAT of 65F at 4500 FT and 6.5 GPH (which is
probably about 70% power). Any attempt to run the power even slightly higher
results in 230+ temps. At lower altitudes where the OAT is higher, the problem
is worse.
>
>Then there is the ignition. I have put in Magnacore suppression wire on the magnetos.
The wire to the plugs seems to be a high quality suppression wire. There
are ferrite cores on every wire. While it is much better than the "as supplied
by Jabiru" level, it is still not acceptable for hearing ATC at the edges
of their normal hand off range.
>
>I have isolated the radio and tried running it on its own battery (no effect).
Disconnecting the antenna wire eliminates all noise so it is all coming in through
the antenna. I have removed the P leads on the mags and verified they have
no effect. All the noise seems to be coming through the high voltage side.
>
>--------
>Mark Hubelbank
>N708HU
>CH601XL
>Jabiru 3300
>Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
>Sensenich ground adj prop.
>70 hr TAF
>Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345960#345960
>
>
Message 17
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I'm not sure what angle you are referring to... when looking at the gear from the
wing tip, the axle is nearer the straight (flat) edge of the gear. If you flip
the gear around, the axle moves forward as stated above.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346006#346006
Message 18
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I think that is consistent with my understanding of the whole "Flat
side" question. However, it seems several posters are saying they moved
from the "Flat side forward" to reverse the position to "Flat side aft"
and got the results of moving the wheels forward.
I wonder if there is more than one interpretation of the meaning of what
the "Flat side" is . . .
Paul
On 7/11/2011 7:24 PM, zodiac601 wrote:
> I'm not sure what angle you are referring to... when looking at the gear from
the wing tip, the axle is nearer the straight (flat) edge of the gear. If you
flip the gear around, the axle moves forward as stated above.
Message 19
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As you can see the "flat part is aft in the original design so if you
reverse the gear the flat side would be forward and the wheels move forward
also.
In a message dated 7/11/2011 11:14:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
psm@att.net writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
I think that is consistent with my understanding of the whole "Flat
side" question. However, it seems several posters are saying they moved
from the "Flat side forward" to reverse the position to "Flat side aft"
and got the results of moving the wheels forward.
I wonder if there is more than one interpretation of the meaning of what
the "Flat side" is . . .
Paul
On 7/11/2011 7:24 PM, zodiac601 wrote:
> I'm not sure what angle you are referring to... when looking at the gear
from the wing tip, the axle is nearer the straight (flat) edge of the
gear. If you flip the gear around, the axle moves forward as stated above.
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