---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/24/11: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:16 AM - Re: Just a couple of questions (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 07:02 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Just a couple of questions (Larry McFarland) 3. 02:12 PM - Re: Just a couple of questions (Bryan Martin) 4. 04:44 PM - Re: Just a couple of questions (Jeff Davidson) 5. 04:53 PM - Re: Just a couple of questions (Jeff Davidson) 6. 05:45 PM - Re: Just a couple of questions (Michel Therrien) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:40 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions Hi Joe, I agree with you about Paul Poberezny's speech. He stole the show. The biggest part of my memory of the event is the notion that he is still building planes at age 90. This must be a hobby that is good for your health! I don't remember what material I used for the fuel line going through the firewall. I do know I have only one line going through. I think I have the normal arrangement of fuel lines going from the two tanks to the fuel selector which is mounted on the center console. From there one line goes to the gascolator which is mounted on the bottom of the cabin and from there through the firewall. I can't imagine why you would have two lines going through the firewall. I guess the ideal material for the tube going through the firewall would be steel. it will stand up to the heat of a fire a lot better than either brass or aluminum. Brass would hold up better than aluminum. I have no idea how these materials act in the presence of fuel. Perhaps there is a chance of interaction with the fuel, but brass fittings are quite normal in fuel systems. I don't think you need to worry about the hole under the horizontal stabilizer. The fuselage blocks airflow in this area. Good luck with your project. Paul Camas, WA XL - 10 hours flight test completed. On 8/23/2011 9:52 PM, Joe wrote: > > I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with. > > I just finished all of the changes for the B model change and now it's > time to start on regular construction again! I ran into a few small > snags I hope you can give me some advise on. > > I have brass through the firewall threaded fittings for my 2 fuel > lines going through the firewall. Someone at EAA told me to use > aluminum fittings rather than the brass because they were lighter and > safer. I can understand the lightness, but I don't understand why they > would be safer. What are you guys using for through the firewall > fittings for your fuel lines? I don't mind sacrificing weight for > safety. I have seen rubber fuel lines with steel reinforcement on the > outside in both a race car and in an RV6. What is the safest way to > build a fuel system and what are the finest products I can buy made > for safety? > > Tonight I fit the stab to the fuselage for the very first time! It was > a great feeling to see the stab sitting there on the fuselage. I knew > there would be a sizable gap between the fuselage skins and the bottom > of the stab, but I didn't think it would be big enough to put my > finger in there! What are you guys doing with that big open hole? > Would it be worth it to build a fairing of some sort on the bottom of > the stab? Is there a reason for the big gap? > > I am also ordering a new elevator for my plane from the factory, > unless I can find a used or unbuilt one. There are 2 types. One with > the trim tab cut into the elevator, and one with a full tab on the > outside of the elevator. I saw both in Oshkosh and they both look OK > for me, but which one is better? Which one is lighter? > > I am preparing a web page this week where you will be able to go and > download pictures of the banquet and award ceremonies. I filmed the > entire banquet and I still can't get over the incredible speech Paul > Poberezny gave. I will have this available shortly for everyone. > > Thanks for any help you can give. It feels good to be working on > something other than the retrofit!!! > > Joe in Oshkosh > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:18 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: RE: [Probable Spam] Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions HI Joe, Don't use automotive fittings in your airplane. 3/8 aluminum tube is a better way of getting your fuel system plumbed. Check out Aircraft Spruce and get a set of Bingelis books that will steer you to the best alternatives in fuel systems. Shutoff valves should be ball valve, because the typical tapered brass valve will gall and seep fuel eventually. I used up two before changing to the ball valve. The images below show how I got thru the firewall. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/ball%20valve.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/subaruengine/full/pump&gascolator.gif Good luck, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:52 PM Subject: [Probable Spam] Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with. I just finished all of the changes for the B model change and now it's time to start on regular construction again! I ran into a few small snags I hope you can give me some advise on. I have brass through the firewall threaded fittings for my 2 fuel lines going through the firewall. Someone at EAA told me to use aluminum fittings rather than the brass because they were lighter and safer. I can understand the lightness, but I don't understand why they would be safer. What are you guys using for through the firewall fittings for your fuel lines? I don't mind sacrificing weight for safety. I have seen rubber fuel lines with steel reinforcement on the outside in both a race car and in an RV6. What is the safest way to build a fuel system and what are the finest products I can buy made for safety? Tonight I fit the stab to the fuselage for the very first time! It was a great feeling to see the stab sitting there on the fuselage. I knew there would be a sizable gap between the fuselage skins and the bottom of the stab, but I didn't think it would be big enough to put my finger in there! What are you guys doing with that big open hole? Would it be worth it to build a fairing of some sort on the bottom of the stab? Is there a reason for the big gap? I am also ordering a new elevator for my plane from the factory, unless I can find a used or unbuilt one. There are 2 types. One with the trim tab cut into the elevator, and one with a full tab on the outside of the elevator. I saw both in Oshkosh and they both look OK for me, but which one is better? Which one is lighter? I am preparing a web page this week where you will be able to go and download pictures of the banquet and award ceremonies. I filmed the entire banquet and I still can't get over the incredible speech Paul Poberezny gave. I will have this available shortly for everyone. Thanks for any help you can give. It feels good to be working on something other than the retrofit!!! Joe in Oshkosh ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions From: Bryan Martin It's called a firewall for a reason, it's supposed to provide some protection from a fire in the engine compartment. Fire resistance should be a factor for any penetrations through the firewall. They should provide at least as much protection as the material of the firewall itself. Brass will tolerate heat better than aluminum. Galvanized steel is even better. I ran my rubber fuel line through the firewall inside a steel bulkhead cable fitting and covered it with fire-sleeve. I built steel baffles around my other firewall penetrations and filled them in with high temp RTV or other resistant material. On Aug 24, 2011, at 12:52 AM, Joe wrote: > > I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with. > > I just finished all of the changes for the B model change and now it's time to start on regular construction again! I ran into a few small snags I hope you can give me some advise on. > > I have brass through the firewall threaded fittings for my 2 fuel lines going through the firewall. Someone at EAA told me to use aluminum fittings rather than the brass because they were lighter and safer. I can understand the lightness, but I don't understand why they would be safer. What are you guys using for through the firewall fittings for your fuel lines? I don't mind sacrificing weight for safety. I have seen rubber fuel lines with steel reinforcement on the outside in both a race car and in an RV6. What is the safest way to build a fuel system and what are the finest products I can buy made for safety? > > Tonight I fit the stab to the fuselage for the very first time! It was a great feeling to see the stab sitting there on the fuselage. I knew there would be a sizable gap between the fuselage skins and the bottom of the stab, but I didn't think it would be big enough to put my finger in there! What are you guys doing with that big open hole? Would it be worth it to build a fairing of some sort on the bottom of the stab? Is there a reason for the big gap? > > I am also ordering a new elevator for my plane from the factory, unless I can find a used or unbuilt one. There are 2 types. One with the trim tab cut into the elevator, and one with a full tab on the outside of the elevator. I saw both in Oshkosh and they both look OK for me, but which one is better? Which one is lighter? > > I am preparing a web page this week where you will be able to go and download pictures of the banquet and award ceremonies. I filmed the entire banquet and I still can't get over the incredible speech Paul Poberezny gave. I will have this available shortly for everyone. > > Thanks for any help you can give. It feels good to be working on something other than the retrofit!!! > > Joe in Oshkosh > > > > > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:51 PM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions I am certainly no expert, but here are a few things I did and learned along the way: I have a leading edge fuel tanks only system. No header tank. I used the Zenith supplied 30R7 rubber fuel lines where the lines might move and aluminum tubing inside the fuselage and cabin where the lines were fixed in place. The tanks overflows are not interconnected, so the selector AndAir valve has no "both" position. I installed Facet pumps, 40105 I believe, next to both tanks. After that per Chris Heintz' recommendation, are check valves to keep fuel from re-entering the tanks. Lines from both tanks then run up to the selctor valve. From there down to the Dynon fuel flow transducer down to the copper bulkhead fitting. On the engine side the bulkhead fitting empties into the gascolator. From there to the fuel pressure guage and then on to the engine driven pump on the 3300A. Here is what I think I learned putting this together: 1) Don't suck fuel, especially auto fuel! Put the pumps where they will push the fuel. 2) The 30R7 fuel lines are fine in areas that are subject to vibration. Just use firesleeve over it in the engine compartment. 3) Putting the gascolator in the engine compartment makes it hard to get it away from the exhaust pipes should it drip fuel for some reason. 4) Yes, only one hole in the firewall is needed for fuel. 5) The pressure from the electric fuel pump and the engine fuel pump are not additive. The pressure stays between the 1 and 3 PSI that the Bing float bowl likes. So I run the electric pump on the active tank all the time. 6) On the Zenith welded tanks, you still need to create the 45 degree angle into the relative wind on the tank overflow pipe. I hope this helps. This setup got me to Oshkosh this year! Jeff D. -----Original Message----- >From: Bryan Martin >Sent: Aug 24, 2011 5:08 PM >To: Zenith 601 List >Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions > > >It's called a firewall for a reason, it's supposed to provide some protection from a fire in the engine compartment. Fire resistance should be a factor for any penetrations through the firewall. They should provide at least as much protection as the material of the firewall itself. Brass will tolerate heat better than aluminum. Galvanized steel is even better. > >I ran my rubber fuel line through the firewall inside a steel bulkhead cable fitting and covered it with fire-sleeve. I built steel baffles around my other firewall penetrations and filled them in with high temp RTV or other resistant material. > > >On Aug 24, 2011, at 12:52 AM, Joe wrote: > >> >> I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with. >> >> I just finished all of the changes for the B model change and now it's time to start on regular construction again! I ran into a few small snags I hope you can give me some advise on. >> >> I have brass through the firewall threaded fittings for my 2 fuel lines going through the firewall. Someone at EAA told me to use aluminum fittings rather than the brass because they were lighter and safer. I can understand the lightness, but I don't understand why they would be safer. What are you guys using for through the firewall fittings for your fuel lines? I don't mind sacrificing weight for safety. I have seen rubber fuel lines with steel reinforcement on the outside in both a race car and in an RV6. What is the safest way to build a fuel system and what are the finest products I can buy made for safety? >> >> Tonight I fit the stab to the fuselage for the very first time! It was a great feeling to see the stab sitting there on the fuselage. I knew there would be a sizable gap between the fuselage skins and the bottom of the stab, but I didn't think it would be big enough to put my finger in there! What are you guys doing with that big open hole? Would it be worth it to build a fairing of some sort on the bottom of the stab? Is there a reason for the big gap? >> >> I am also ordering a new elevator for my plane from the factory, unless I can find a used or unbuilt one. There are 2 types. One with the trim tab cut into the elevator, and one with a full tab on the outside of the elevator. I saw both in Oshkosh and they both look OK for me, but which one is better? Which one is lighter? >> >> I am preparing a web page this week where you will be able to go and download pictures of the banquet and award ceremonies. I filmed the entire banquet and I still can't get over the incredible speech Paul Poberezny gave. I will have this available shortly for everyone. >> >> Thanks for any help you can give. It feels good to be working on something other than the retrofit!!! >> >> Joe in Oshkosh >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >-- >Bryan Martin >N61BM, CH 601 XL, >RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:47 PM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions Joe, For what it is worth, I choose the recessed trim tab on the elevator just so it wouldn't either catch someone as they walked by or get damaged somehow because it sticks out. The recessed one works fine on my HD. I have the non-recessed trim tab arrangement on the aileron. If you are thinking of a trim tab there, I suggest you wait. I don't use it at all. Jeff D -----Original Message----- >From: Joe >Sent: Aug 24, 2011 12:52 AM >To: zenith601-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions > > >I have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with. > >I just finished all of the changes for the B model change and now it's time >to start on regular construction again! I ran into a few small snags I hope >you can give me some advise on. > >I have brass through the firewall threaded fittings for my 2 fuel lines >going through the firewall. Someone at EAA told me to use aluminum fittings >rather than the brass because they were lighter and safer. I can understand >the lightness, but I don't understand why they would be safer. What are you >guys using for through the firewall fittings for your fuel lines? I don't >mind sacrificing weight for safety. I have seen rubber fuel lines with steel >reinforcement on the outside in both a race car and in an RV6. What is the >safest way to build a fuel system and what are the finest products I can buy >made for safety? > >Tonight I fit the stab to the fuselage for the very first time! It was a >great feeling to see the stab sitting there on the fuselage. I knew there >would be a sizable gap between the fuselage skins and the bottom of the >stab, but I didn't think it would be big enough to put my finger in there! >What are you guys doing with that big open hole? Would it be worth it to >build a fairing of some sort on the bottom of the stab? Is there a reason >for the big gap? > >I am also ordering a new elevator for my plane from the factory, unless I >can find a used or unbuilt one. There are 2 types. One with the trim tab cut >into the elevator, and one with a full tab on the outside of the elevator. I >saw both in Oshkosh and they both look OK for me, but which one is better? >Which one is lighter? > >I am preparing a web page this week where you will be able to go and >download pictures of the banquet and award ceremonies. I filmed the entire >banquet and I still can't get over the incredible speech Paul Poberezny >gave. I will have this available shortly for everyone. > >Thanks for any help you can give. It feels good to be working on something >other than the retrofit!!! > >Joe in Oshkosh > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:49 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Just a couple of questions Jeff, when i tested check valves in line with fuel pumps, i found there would be much more back flow into the opposite tank with a check valve than without... So i decided to deinstall them. Sent from my iPad On Aug 24, 2011, at 7:40 PM, Jeff Davidson wrote: > > ... installed Facet pumps, 40105 I believe, next to both tanks. After that per Chris Heintz' recommendation, are check valves to keep fuel from re-entering the tanks. ... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.