---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/14/12: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: 601 down... (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 2. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: 601 down... (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: 601 down... (fritz) 4. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: 601 down... (Paul Mulwitz) 5. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: 601 down... (Peter Chapman) 6. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: 601 down... (fritz) 7. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: 601 down... (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:44 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house but you must be all out of stones and wonder why it is so breezy inside. Jeff In a message dated 4/13/2012 11:56:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, psm@att.net writes: XL builders included a bunch of idiots that were causing the wings to regularly fall off ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:01 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... Jeff, I'm sorry you didn't get my irony. The point was my BS detectors were going off as soon as the Heintz clan decided to blame builders and owners for the XL failures. I wasn't sure of the cause until long after the FAA guys announced they had found it, but I couldn't help notice that it was only XL builders of Zodiacs who were causing failures and not those who built earlier models. The Heintzs were so cocksure the design was OK they wouldn't even try to find the problem. One thing I haven't yet mentioned on the email list. I spent a couple of years traveling around the country talking to various experts over the XL issue. I was surprised to learn the kit plane industry has a long history of horrible design problems. I guess we take for granted that anyone offering kits has a competent design built into them. Even after vetting a design through the experts at EAA and studying the accident history of a popular design such as the Zodiac I still wound up with a turkey. It could have been worse. I learned from an NTSB guy at Oshkosh that Jim Bede had a long history if disappointing his many customers. In the BD-5 case he refused to send out the final kit part, the engine cowl, to any of this customers because he knew many of them would get killed if they got to fly their planes. If they made their own cowl and then killed themselves they couldn't blame Bede. At least in the XL case the problems were eventually identified and apparently fixed with the AMD update. Now we have a sound design for our planes. Besides, I live on a mountain composed primarily of rock. I will never run out of stones to throw. The only breeze in my house comes from the heat pump. Best regards, Paul On 4/14/2012 6:04 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house but you must be all > out of stones and wonder why it is so breezy inside. > Jeff > In a message dated 4/13/2012 11:56:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > psm@att.net writes: > > XL builders included a bunch of idiots > that were causing the wings to regularly fall off > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:19 AM PST US From: "fritz" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... Paul-- please clarify--- you say 2 different things. 1) "XL builders included a bunch of idiots that were causing the wings to regularly fall off". 2) "At least in the XL case the problems were eventually identified and apparently fixed with the AMD update" Which is it??????? Your first statement was "rather harsh" considering folks died. Fritz. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 11:15 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... > Jeff, > > I'm sorry you didn't get my irony. The point was my BS detectors were > going off as soon as the Heintz clan decided to blame builders and > owners for the XL failures. I wasn't sure of the cause until long after > the FAA guys announced they had found it, but I couldn't help notice > that it was only XL builders of Zodiacs who were causing failures and > not those who built earlier models. The Heintzs were so cocksure the > design was OK they wouldn't even try to find the problem. > > One thing I haven't yet mentioned on the email list. I spent a couple > of years traveling around the country talking to various experts over > the XL issue. I was surprised to learn the kit plane industry has a > long history of horrible design problems. I guess we take for granted > that anyone offering kits has a competent design built into them. Even > after vetting a design through the experts at EAA and studying the > accident history of a popular design such as the Zodiac I still wound up > with a turkey. It could have been worse. I learned from an NTSB guy at > Oshkosh that Jim Bede had a long history if disappointing his many > customers. In the BD-5 case he refused to send out the final kit part, > the engine cowl, to any of this customers because he knew many of them > would get killed if they got to fly their planes. If they made their > own cowl and then killed themselves they couldn't blame Bede. At least > in the XL case the problems were eventually identified and apparently > fixed with the AMD update. Now we have a sound design for our planes. > > Besides, I live on a mountain composed primarily of rock. I will never > run out of stones to throw. The only breeze in my house comes from the > heat pump. > > Best regards, > > Paul > > On 4/14/2012 6:04 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: >> I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house but you must be all >> out of stones and wonder why it is so breezy inside. >> Jeff >> In a message dated 4/13/2012 11:56:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> psm@att.net writes: >> >> XL builders included a bunch of idiots >> that were causing the wings to regularly fall off >> >> * >> >> >> * > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:04 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... Hi Fritz, Comment #1 was me "Aping" what the Heintz clan was saying for several years. In effect they refused to believe there was anything wrong with the design and the deaths were all caused by maintenance issues (i.e. loose aileron cables) and similar such builder faults. I never believed that. Comment #2 Reflects my current opinion. It also reflects the opinions of the engineers in the FAA Small Airplane Directorate as documented in their SAIB: CE-10-08 dated November 7, 2009 which effectively grounded the entire fleet of Zodiac XLs until they had the AMD update installed. I believe the designation for CH601XL and CH650 from Zenith Aircraft Company changes the names to CH601XLB and CH650B when the update is included and installed. This update adds a considerable amount of metal and rivets to the wing spars and spar carry-through and also adds mass balancing weights to the ailerons. Other changes are also included such as reinforcements for the wing attach uprights. I was not convinced the update actually fixed the problem after reading the various FAA documents. I thought the conclusion was that there might be a problem and the update strengthens the design which might fix the problem if there is one. I was turned around on this point of view by a 20 minute face to face conversation with Wes Ryan (the guy whose name appears at the bottom of the FAA documents on this whole issue). He convinced me that they had indeed found serious problems with the design which were corrected by the update. Apparently I was unable to interpret their released documents clearly. So the bottom line, in my opinion, is that Zodiac XLs and 650s are death traps until the AMD update is installed. After this installation they have a competent engineering design which should be considered safe. (Of course they are still home built and/or uncertified airplanes so there is a bit of danger that remains. This is no different from any other kit or plans built airplane.) I hope this helps. Please accept my apology for unclear writing earlier. I didn't mean to confuse anything or reflect negatively on anyone who fell victim to this problem. Paul Camas, WA On 4/14/2012 9:57 AM, fritz wrote: > > Paul-- please clarify--- you say 2 different things. > > 1) "XL builders included a bunch of idiots > that were causing the wings to regularly fall off". > > 2) "At least in the XL case the problems were eventually > identified and > apparently fixed with the AMD update" > > Which is it??????? > > Your first statement was "rather harsh" considering folks died. > > Fritz. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:39 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... At 11:15 14-04-12, you wrote: >. In the BD-5 case he refused to send out the final kit part, the >engine cowl, to any of this customers because he knew many of them >would get killed if they got to fly their planes. I don't want to go too far off on a tangent, but the whole story is a lot more complex (and I only know a bit). It was the whole damn engine that ended up not being available to kit customers; it wasn't some trick to avoid liability. And that aircraft was in a whole other class, a hot little plane with minimal structure around the pilot, one that would be very unforgiving if one's own engine installation didn't work out right. And hotter still if the engines actually installed weighed a lot more (in a light fuselage) than Bede had initially hoped, which usually was the case. I'm sure that there were some poorly designed plans or kit built aircraft out there that never got popular, but the XL was unusual for being reasonably popular yet having catastrophic structural failures. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:42 PM PST US From: "fritz" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... I have an idea what the updates consist of and thought these would make the airplane safer. But, what was the specific cause you talk about? Was it one major flaw or was it a combination of what the updates cover. Were any of the updates "just in case" ? ie aileron balance system. Elevator travel restriction?? Does the 7 -9 degree (?) slant of the wing spar contribute to the problem vs being 90 degrees ?? Was the whole wing design and the way it attached a problem? Fritz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... > > Hi Fritz, > > Comment #1 was me "Aping" what the Heintz clan was saying for several > years. In effect they refused to believe there was anything wrong with > the design and the deaths were all caused by maintenance issues (i.e. > loose aileron cables) and similar such builder faults. I never believed > that. > > Comment #2 Reflects my current opinion. It also reflects the opinions of > the engineers in the FAA Small Airplane Directorate as documented in their > SAIB: CE-10-08 dated November 7, 2009 which effectively grounded the > entire fleet of Zodiac XLs until they had the AMD update installed. I > believe the designation for CH601XL and CH650 from Zenith Aircraft Company > changes the names to CH601XLB and CH650B when the update is included and > installed. This update adds a considerable amount of metal and rivets to > the wing spars and spar carry-through and also adds mass balancing weights > to the ailerons. Other changes are also included such as reinforcements > for the wing attach uprights. > > I was not convinced the update actually fixed the problem after reading > the various FAA documents. I thought the conclusion was that there might > be a problem and the update strengthens the design which might fix the > problem if there is one. I was turned around on this point of view by a > 20 minute face to face conversation with Wes Ryan (the guy whose name > appears at the bottom of the FAA documents on this whole issue). He > convinced me that they had indeed found serious problems with the design > which were corrected by the update. Apparently I was unable to interpret > their released documents clearly. > > So the bottom line, in my opinion, is that Zodiac XLs and 650s are death > traps until the AMD update is installed. After this installation they > have a competent engineering design which should be considered safe. (Of > course they are still home built and/or uncertified airplanes so there is > a bit of danger that remains. This is no different from any other kit or > plans built airplane.) > > I hope this helps. Please accept my apology for unclear writing earlier. > I didn't mean to confuse anything or reflect negatively on anyone who fell > victim to this problem. > > Paul > Camas, WA > > On 4/14/2012 9:57 AM, fritz wrote: >> >> Paul-- please clarify--- you say 2 different things. >> >> 1) "XL builders included a bunch of idiots >> that were causing the wings to regularly fall off". >> >> 2) "At least in the XL case the problems were eventually identified >> and >> apparently fixed with the AMD update" >> >> Which is it??????? >> >> Your first statement was "rather harsh" considering folks died. >> >> Fritz. > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:31 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... Hi Fritz, I don't know the answers to all your questions. I am a retired engineer but not an aviation engineer. I made a living doing electrical engineering. For specific answers I suspect you should contact the FAA or Zenith or Zenair. I don't know if any of them will tell you exactly what the truth is for a variety of reasons. You can't contact AMD because they sold out shortly after the design update was released. I was told the FAA and NTSB guys found evidence of flutter and structural failure in the accident wreckage. They could not determine if the flutter caused the structure failure or the structure failure caused the flutter. There was no change to the elevator travel or anything else related to the elevator. Many people who may not rate as experts in the Zodiac accidents claimed the aileron balance was very important. It was part of the update so it should be installed in all XLs and 650s. It was developed by the LAA before the rest of the update was developed by Zenair/AMD. Nobody I talked to said the tilted spar was related to the problems. This causes the wing tips to be moved forward - part of the unique design of the XL. The update did not change this. Mostly the update added lots of aluminum to the spars. It also added metal and hard rivets to the spar carry through. Best regards, Paul On 4/14/2012 4:41 PM, fritz wrote: > > I have an idea what the updates consist of and thought these would > make the airplane safer. > > But, what was the specific cause you talk about? Was it one major > flaw or was it a combination of what the updates cover. Were any of > the updates "just in case" ? ie aileron balance system. Elevator > travel restriction?? > > Does the 7 -9 degree (?) slant of the wing spar contribute to the > problem vs being 90 degrees ?? > > Was the whole wing design and the way it attached a problem? > > Fritz > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:39 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 down... > > >> >> Hi Fritz, >> >> Comment #1 was me "Aping" what the Heintz clan was saying for several >> years. In effect they refused to believe there was anything wrong >> with the design and the deaths were all caused by maintenance issues >> (i.e. loose aileron cables) and similar such builder faults. I never >> believed that. >> >> Comment #2 Reflects my current opinion. It also reflects the >> opinions of the engineers in the FAA Small Airplane Directorate as >> documented in their SAIB: CE-10-08 dated November 7, 2009 which >> effectively grounded the entire fleet of Zodiac XLs until they had >> the AMD update installed. I believe the designation for CH601XL and >> CH650 from Zenith Aircraft Company changes the names to CH601XLB and >> CH650B when the update is included and installed. This update adds a >> considerable amount of metal and rivets to the wing spars and spar >> carry-through and also adds mass balancing weights to the ailerons. >> Other changes are also included such as reinforcements for the wing >> attach uprights. >> >> I was not convinced the update actually fixed the problem after >> reading the various FAA documents. I thought the conclusion was that >> there might be a problem and the update strengthens the design which >> might fix the problem if there is one. I was turned around on this >> point of view by a 20 minute face to face conversation with Wes Ryan >> (the guy whose name appears at the bottom of the FAA documents on >> this whole issue). He convinced me that they had indeed found >> serious problems with the design which were corrected by the update. >> Apparently I was unable to interpret their released documents clearly. >> >> So the bottom line, in my opinion, is that Zodiac XLs and 650s are >> death traps until the AMD update is installed. After this >> installation they have a competent engineering design which should be >> considered safe. (Of course they are still home built and/or >> uncertified airplanes so there is a bit of danger that remains. This >> is no different from any other kit or plans built airplane.) >> >> I hope this helps. Please accept my apology for unclear writing >> earlier. I didn't mean to confuse anything or reflect negatively on >> anyone who fell victim to this problem. >> >> Paul >> Camas, WA >> >> On 4/14/2012 9:57 AM, fritz wrote: >>> >>> Paul-- please clarify--- you say 2 different things. >>> >>> 1) "XL builders included a bunch of idiots >>> that were causing the wings to regularly fall off". >>> >>> 2) "At least in the XL case the problems were eventually >>> identified and >>> apparently fixed with the AMD update" >>> >>> Which is it??????? >>> >>> Your first statement was "rather harsh" considering folks died. >>> >>> Fritz. >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.