Today's Message Index:
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1. 08:02 AM - Zenith thrown out of plane (Larry McFarland)
2. 08:19 AM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Jay Bannister)
3. 05:13 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Larry McFarland)
4. 05:52 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Jay Bannister)
5. 06:14 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Craig Payne)
6. 06:41 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Tim Juhl)
7. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Craig Payne)
8. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Jay Bannister)
9. 08:00 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (andrewtub)
10. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Paul Mulwitz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Zenith thrown out of plane |
Hi Guys,
I've had the canopy undone in flight and the canopy could not open far
enough to dump someone
unless the airspeed was in full stall. If he pitched the nose up sharply
and then fell through the stall, it
is possible to get ejected that way, but going anything faster than 60 and
the canopy is going to stay within 10 inches
of closed even if it's unlatched.
Very unfortunate though.
Larry McFarland
601HDS sold after 7 years flying
Now in a Piper Cherokee
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Larry,
I know what Zenith says about it, but I can tell you for certain that an XL
canopy can rise to fully open if unlatched at cruise speed, and you will n
ot be able to get it back down and latched. I have lived through that and
you can also ask the widow of the owner of that airplane about it.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry McFarland <larrycmcfarland@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 10:03 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Zenith thrown out of plane
Hi Guys,
I=99ve had the canopy undone in flight and the canopy could not open
far enough to dump someone
unless the airspeed was in full stall. If he pitched the nose up sharply a
nd then fell through the stall, it
is possible to get ejected that way, but going anything faster than 60 and
the canopy is going to stay within 10 inches
of closed even if it=99s unlatched.
Very unfortunate though.
Larry McFarland
601HDS sold after 7 years flying
Now in a Piper Cherokee
Message 3
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| Subject: | Zenith thrown out of plane |
Hi Jay,
I believe you=99re saying there was no relative wind against the
canopy, but this could only occur if the plane was nearing the end of a
climb or pitch up stall
condition. No, the canopy will not close in flight, nor will it open
fully or much more than the drag allows at normal airspeed. Relative
drag keeps the unlatched canopy
at a less than quarter-open if speed=99s are above 60 because it
generates lift and still has drag. I couldn=99t guess about below
that. The effect of pitching one out of an airplane suggests a full
pitch over at nearly zero airspeed, which I=99ve done, and the
negative forces can really throw you against the belts if you happen to
be wearing them. Both of these conditions would seem to be necessary if
a person were to be thrown from the plane. I=99d think a simple
hard over arc would be hard to
duplicate the result.
I wasn=99t there, so it=99s very possible there=99s a
few more ways this could=99ve happened.
Do Fly safe,
Larry McFarland
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay
Bannister
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Zenith thrown out of plane
Larry,
I know what Zenith says about it, but I can tell you for certain that an
XL canopy can rise to fully open if unlatched at cruise speed, and you
will not be able to get it back down and latched. I have lived through
that and you can also ask the widow of the owner of that airplane about
it.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry McFarland <larrycmcfarland@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 10:03 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Zenith thrown out of plane
Hi Guys,
I=99ve had the canopy undone in flight and the canopy could not
open far enough to dump someone
unless the airspeed was in full stall. If he pitched the nose up
sharply and then fell through the stall, it
is possible to get ejected that way, but going anything faster than 60
and the canopy is going to stay within 10 inches
of closed even if it=99s unlatched.
Very unfortunate though.
Larry McFarland
601HDS sold after 7 years flying
Now in a Piper Cherokee
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Hey Larry,
I hear what you are saying and it makes sense. However, that is definitely
not what happened in my case. We were at a level cruise at a speed of abo
ut 100 kts. When unlatched, the canopy flew up to about 70 degrees and the
nose pitched down to about 60 degrees. My headset and ball cap were blown
off immediately. The two of us were not able to pull the canopy back down
-- any. I was never able to get the nose up to more than 10 degrees down
and that is how we hit the ground. During my three month recuperation and
the four years since, I have re-lived it many times and still don't know w
hy it happened the way it did.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry McFarland <larrycmcfarland@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 7:19 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith thrown out of plane
Hi Jay,
I believe you=99re saying there was no relative wind against the cano
py, but this could only occur if the plane was nearing the end of a climb o
r pitch up stall
condition. No, the canopy will not close in flight, nor will it open fully
or much more than the drag allows at normal airspeed. Relative drag keeps
the unlatched canopy
at a less than quarter-open if speed=99s are above 60 because it gene
rates lift and still has drag. I couldn=99t guess about below that.
The effect of pitching one out of an airplane suggests a full pitch over a
t nearly zero airspeed, which I=99ve done, and the negative forces ca
n really throw you against the belts if you happen to be wearing them. Both
of these conditions would seem to be necessary if a person were to be thro
wn from the plane. I=99d think a simple hard over arc would be hard
to
duplicate the result.
I wasn=99t there, so it=99s very possible there=99s a few
more ways this could=99ve happened.
Do Fly safe,
Larry McFarland
Message 5
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| Subject: | Zenith thrown out of plane |
My instructor and I had the canopy open in a similar aircraft. The
Evector Sportstar is a low-wing LSA with a forward-hinged canopy
(although the canopy is split behind the seats). When the canopy popped
I hung on its cross-bar with all my weight but could not close it. We
were close to the runway and my instructor was able to land without
further incident. I don=99t recall if we were able to maintain
altitude.
I=99ve attached photos from another 601XL open canopy incident
from 2006 or earlier. I don=99t know much else about this incident
but I think it is described in the archives (the original poster was coy
about the pilot and details).
-- Craig
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
The pictures tell quite the story. A.) the canopy can rise dramatically and B.)
the airplane is still controllable in that condition. Another great reason
for adding some kind of safety latch.
FWIW - One method used to bail out of fighters during WWII was to unbuckle your
belt and put one foot on the stick and push. Simple physics.
I wouldn't think of flying without a seat belt on. A few times I've hit turbulence
strong enough that unbelted I'd have struck my head on the cabin roof - hard!
So sad.....
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397374#397374
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
The topic has come up in the past with pilots (like Jay and Larry) reporting
different experiences. Who can say why? W&B? XL vs. HD? Old style vs. newer
profile canopies? Hair styles? But there is no denying the differences.
-- Craig
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Tim,
I can tell you for a fact that not all 601XLs are controllable with the can
opy at its open position.
The very first thing I did with my own airplane after my accident (in anoth
er 601XL) was to add a tether that would only allow an unlatched canopy to
open about an inch.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Juhl <timjuhl@frontier.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 8:44 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane
The pictures tell quite the story. A.) the canopy can rise dramatically an
d B.)
the airplane is still controllable in that condition. Another great reason
for
adding some kind of safety latch.
So sad.....
Tim
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Just a guess but by the looks of where the canopy is broken he may have unfastened
his seat belt to stand up and grab the canopy by the back edge and broke it
while trying to close it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397383#397383
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_2301439_1900a0e2000005dc_595_634x370_388.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_2301439_1900a0e2000005dc_595_634x370_368.jpg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
This idea sounds believable and like a real Darwin moment. We all
should know by now that the only way to get an open canopy closed on an
XL is to land first.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 3/30/2013 7:59 PM, andrewtub wrote:
>
> Just a guess but by the looks of where the canopy is broken he may have unfastened
his seat belt to stand up and grab the canopy by the back edge and broke
it while trying to close it.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397383#397383
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_2301439_1900a0e2000005dc_595_634x370_388.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_2301439_1900a0e2000005dc_595_634x370_368.jpg
>
>
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