Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:59 AM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Tim Juhl)
2. 11:00 AM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Sabrina)
3. 11:29 AM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Carlos Sa)
5. 12:20 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Afterfxllc@AOL.COM)
6. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane ()
7. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Afterfxllc@AOL.COM)
8. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Jay Bannister)
9. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Bryan Martin)
10. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (Bryan Martin)
11. 07:39 PM - Re: Zenith thrown out of plane (SIDESLIP)
12. 07:43 PM - 601xl battery mount/tiedowns (SIDESLIP)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
We do know that in at least a few instances the XL was controllable and could be
brought to a safe landing. It would be interesting to study the factors relating
to controllability but I for one will settle for installing a safety latch
or tether.
Many factory built airplanes have configurations where they can't remain airborne
as well. For example, lose the wing root fairings on a Piper Cub and you're
coming down....
Older Cessnas were prone to have doors come unlatched. If you slowed the airplane
way down you might be able to close it, but I always taught my student's to
focus on flying the airplane and land at a nearby airport before trying to close
the door.
I'm sure we'll be hearing more on the subject.... maybe we'll get some straight
info that will end the speculation.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Wing modifications done - back working on the fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397415#397415
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Tim,
The key to every safe canopy up landing to date appears to have been immediate
application of full power.
Andrew,
The idea of the owner standing up and trying to pull the canopy down does not sound
that far out there. That would explain the seat belt not being fastened,
and negate the comments about the surviving pilot's gross negligence--he did get
the plane down, and it is hard to tell an owner what to do while you are trying
to fly his airplane.
Paul,
Interrupting the air over the cowling before it has a chance to lift the canopy
is one factor. For those of you who want to experiment, do a tied down ground
run up in strong headwind conditions, one with a 1 3/4" foam seal where the
leading edge of the canopy meats the airframe and one where there is no seal affixed
to the airframe.
Another experiment would be to tack weld small winglets onto the rear of the canopy
rails and compare the lift of the canopy in the same conditions as above.
They make great handles as well.
Two other measures: Ejector pins so you can intentionally lose the canopy in mid
flight if you experience an engine failure and an open canopy at the same time.
Second- rig the canopy latches so each side needs to be opened independently.
That way your passenger can't open it for you in flight without reaching across
and in front of you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397427#397427
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Hi Sabrina,
Interesting ideas.
In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left
shoulder. I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my
permission.
Also, I opened up the aluminum on the inside of the canopy frame and
painted lines on the mechanism to show when each is fully latched. I
often need to slam a small piece of 2x4 on the top of the frame to get
the latch fully engaged. This is also an item on my pre-takeoff
checklist, but I usually make sure the canopy is properly latched before
starting to taxi.
I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider
building one. Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do
this. Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy
safety device.
Paul
On 3/31/2013 11:00 AM, Sabrina wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> The key to every safe canopy up landing to date appears to have been immediate
application of full power.
>
> Andrew,
>
> The idea of the owner standing up and trying to pull the canopy down does not
sound that far out there. That would explain the seat belt not being fastened,
and negate the comments about the surviving pilot's gross negligence--he did
get the plane down, and it is hard to tell an owner what to do while you are
trying to fly his airplane.
>
> Paul,
>
> Interrupting the air over the cowling before it has a chance to lift the canopy
is one factor. For those of you who want to experiment, do a tied down ground
run up in strong headwind conditions, one with a 1 3/4" foam seal where the
leading edge of the canopy meats the airframe and one where there is no seal
affixed to the airframe.
>
> Another experiment would be to tack weld small winglets onto the rear of the
canopy rails and compare the lift of the canopy in the same conditions as above.
They make great handles as well.
>
> Two other measures: Ejector pins so you can intentionally lose the canopy in
mid flight if you experience an engine failure and an open canopy at the same
time. Second- rig the canopy latches so each side needs to be opened independently.
That way your passenger can't open it for you in flight without reaching
across and in front of you.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397427#397427
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
I like Phillip Barnes idea: http://tinyurl.com/bs4ykbc
Carlos
CH601-HD, 650 canopy*
*
On 31 March 2013 14:28, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Sabrina,
>
> Interesting ideas.
>
> In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left
> shoulder. I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my
> permission.
>
> Also, I opened up the aluminum on the inside of the canopy frame and
> painted lines on the mechanism to show when each is fully latched. I often
> need to slam a small piece of 2x4 on the top of the frame to get the latch
> fully engaged. This is also an item on my pre-takeoff checklist, but I
> usually make sure the canopy is properly latched before starting to taxi.
>
> I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider
> building one. Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do this.
> Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy safety device.
>
> Paul
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
This is what it looks like in real life and it certainly looks like you
could be ejected if it suddenly went into a dive.
In a message dated 3/30/2013 8:54:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jaybannist@cs.com writes:
Hey Larry,
I hear what you are saying and it makes sense. However, that is
definitely not what happened in my case. We were at a level cruise at a s
peed of
about 100 kts. When unlatched, the canopy flew up to about 70 degrees and
the
nose pitched down to about 60 degrees. My headset and ball cap were blown
off immediately. The two of us were not able to pull the canopy back
down -- any. I was never able to get the nose up to more than 10 degree
s
down and that is how we hit the ground. During my three month recuperatio
n
and the four years since, I have re-lived it many times and still don't kn
ow
why it happened the way it did.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry McFarland <larrycmcfarland@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 7:19 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Zenith thrown out of plane
Hi Jay,
I believe you=99re saying there was no relative wind against the can
opy, but
this could only occur if the plane was nearing the end of a climb or pitch
up stall
condition. No, the canopy will not close in flight, nor will it open fully
or much more than the drag allows at normal airspeed. Relative drag keeps
the unlatched canopy
at a less than quarter-open if speed=99s are above 60 because it gen
erates
lift and still has drag. I couldn=99t guess about below that. The
effect of
pitching one out of an airplane suggests a full pitch over at nearly zero
airspeed, which I=99ve done, and the negative forces can really throw
you
against the belts if you happen to be wearing them. Both of these condition
s
would seem to be necessary if a person were to be thrown from the plane.
I=99
d think a simple hard over arc would be hard to
duplicate the result.
I wasn=99t there, so it=99s very possible there=99s a fe
w more ways this could=99
ve happened.
Do Fly safe,
Larry McFarland
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Some good ideas being presented here. I used two spring-loaded barrel
bolts fitting into appropriate-sized holes in "L" plates, but before it
breaks ground I'll want a pants-and-suspenders tether of some sort.
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Sa<mailto:carlossa52@gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane
I like Phillip Barnes idea:
http://tinyurl.com/bs4ykbc<http://tinyurl.com/bs4ykbc>
Carlos
CH601-HD, 650 canopy
On 31 March 2013 14:28, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net<mailto:psm@att.net>>
wrote:
<psm@att.net<mailto:psm@att.net>>
Hi Sabrina,
Interesting ideas.
In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my
left shoulder. I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that
without my permission.
Also, I opened up the aluminum on the inside of the canopy frame and
painted lines on the mechanism to show when each is fully latched. I
often need to slam a small piece of 2x4 on the top of the frame to get
the latch fully engaged. This is also an item on my pre-takeoff
checklist, but I usually make sure the canopy is properly latched before
starting to taxi.
I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider
building one. Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do
this. Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy
safety device.
Paul
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
This is what I came up with and it can't open in flight but is so simple
and easy to open on the ground.
In a message dated 3/31/2013 3:20:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
paulrod36@msn.com writes:
Some good ideas being presented here. I used two spring-loaded barrel
bolts fitting into appropriate-sized holes in "L" plates, but before it breaks
ground I'll want a pants-and-suspenders tether of some sort.
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: _Carlos Sa_ (mailto:carlossa52@gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane
I like Phillip Barnes idea: _http://tinyurl.com/bs4ykbc_
(http://tinyurl.com/bs4ykbc)
Carlos
CH601-HD, 650 canopy
On 31 March 2013 14:28, Paul Mulwitz <_psm@att.net_ (mailto:psm@att.net) >
wrote:
(mailto:psm@att.net) >
Hi Sabrina,
Interesting ideas.
In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left
shoulder. I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my
permission.
Also, I opened up the aluminum on the inside of the canopy frame and
painted lines on the mechanism to show when each is fully latched. I often need
to slam a small piece of 2x4 on the top of the frame to get the latch fully
engaged. This is also an item on my pre-takeoff checklist, but I usually
make sure the canopy is properly latched before starting to taxi.
I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider
building one. Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do this.
Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy safety device.
Paul
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zen
ith601-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Is this what you are looking for?
I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider buildi
ng one. Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do this. Perha
ps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy safety device.Paul
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
The original latch design for the XL had both sides latching independantly with
two stage latches. I have had mine come unlatched on one side a few times and
have even been able to reclose it in flight sometimes when this has happened.
With this design, there is very little danger of unlatching the other side while
attempting to close one side. On the new latch design, both latches are connected
together through the torque tube and move as one. Attempting to close
one side if it comes open will almost certainly cause the other side to come unlatched.
independently--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.
>
> Hi Sabrina,
>
> Interesting ideas.
>
> In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left shoulder.
I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my permission.
>
> Paul
>
> On 3/31/2013 11:00 AM, Sabrina wrote:
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> The key to every safe canopy up landing to date appears to have been immediate
application of full power.
>>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
Full power Scotty.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.
do not archive.
>
> The topic has come up in the past with pilots (like Jay and Larry) reporting
> different experiences. Who can say why? W&B? XL vs. HD? Old style vs. newer
> profile canopies? Hair styles? But there is no denying the differences.
>
> -- Craig
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith thrown out of plane |
I have saw and have purchased long before this incident, two tool box latches made
from metal. I will close the canopy, then simply close the latches like a
toolbox latch. Problem solved. Installing in the next few weeks! I'll post photos!
There will be one on each side. Mid canopy to side of fuselage.
Chad
M
--------
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397487#397487
Message 12
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| Subject: | 601xl battery mount/tiedowns |
I've searched high and low. I just want a photo of how others may have done this.
There is a larger Powersports battery from Canadian tire in there now, but
I bought the small odyssey and need to adapt a bracket to make the smaller battery
fit ok.
Any help?
Thanks!
Chad
--------
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397489#397489
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