Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:30 AM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (Paul Mulwitz)
2. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/24/17 (Bryan Martin)
3. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (Gary Gower)
4. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/24/17 (Gary Gower)
5. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
6. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (Gary Gower)
7. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
Hi Joe,
I built and fly a similar plane to the 650 (CH601XL). I use the three
point belts included in my kit.
I don't see seat belts having the same purpose in light planes as they
do in automobiles. They are necessary to keep people in their seats in
turbulent air rather than to provide protection in frontal collisions.
If you collide with a mountain or even a solid hit on a tree at normal
flying speeds (120 kts) you are going to die no matter what sort of
restraints you have.
Safety in aviation (in my opinion) comes from maintaining control of the
plane along with keeping it away from solid objects. Flying close to the
ground or other solid objects is very dangerous. Losing control of you
plane for any reason is also dangerous. Most airplane accidents result
from dangerous flying such as hot dogging or high speed flight close to
the ground. There are also plenty of stall/spin accidents that start
with an approach that passes the runway center line on turn to final and
the pilot makes a steep turn while flying low and slow. I suggest you
would do a lot more to protect yourself and your passengers by
installing an angle of attack instrument of some sort and learning how
to use it to prevent stalls than by installing fancy seat belts. I have
a home built lift reserve indicator (LRI) that I built for less than $50
while waiting for one of my sub-kits which performs a similar function.
You can find plans for an LRI for free on the net.
I should also mention that learning to fly on instruments and handling
unusual attitudes on instruments can also go a long way toward saving
your life. It would be good to go all the way and get an instrument
rating but just being able to fly straight and level along with the 180
level turn and unusual attitude recovery are the really important
skills. Even for strictly VFR pilots it is only a matter of when rather
than if that you will run into situations where lack of ability to fly
on the gauges means you are unable to maintain control of your plane.
Good luck
Paul
Camas, WA
N773PM
On 12/25/2017 9:10 PM, Joe wrote:
>
> Merry Christmas fellow builders!
>
> Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
> 601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
> other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
>
> I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
> have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
> that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
> that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when
> you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
> very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
> deceleration force.
>
> Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
>
> How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?
>
> How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
> it to other builders?
>
> Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
> you attaching it to your spar?
>
> Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
>
> Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/24/17 |
A witness stated that the plane came in at a 45 degree angle. But did he mean a
45 degree descent or at a 45 degree angle to the road? Without knowing the knowledge
level of the witness, its har to tell. The crash site is what youd expect
after a steep descent but the plane did hit trees just before it hit the ground.
At first glance, this accident appears to be a case of VFR into IMC followed
by controlled flight into terrain, but that's just a guess at this point.
That is one of the deadliest types of crashes. Seat belts and shoulder harnesses
help in low speed impacts, but not so much in the high speed impacts associated
with CFIT.
> From: "Joe" <backstagelive@gmail.com>
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:51:11 AM
> Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/24/17
>
>
> But I would like to make one comment. I went on YouTube and looked at the
> videos of the plane that are posted and I noticed that in the videos the
> plane had no shoulder harnesses. A 45 degree angle as mentioned on this
> thread is hard to survive, but in the stories printed on the accident, it
> seems the pilot did not immediately pass on impact. Seeing the wings and
> tail did not leave the plane, I am just wondering out loud: could shoulder
> harnesses have saved his life? For me, after seeing this, I am installing 4
> point harnesses in my plane.
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence...=C2- Airplane
s fly way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the
air :-)=C2- even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt,
can kill you)
Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts,=C2- is only on learn
ing Flying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluidi
ng avoid "got to fly no matter what") =C2-
Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent becaus
e of cero visibility)=C2- will increase the speed of the plane geometrica
lly fast!=C2- 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash=C2- (miracles h
appen)...
Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airpla
ne down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manov
er trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning
to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather,=C2- or
too close to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly,=C2- not to crash.=C2- A winged money transp
ort will not fly....=C2- Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledg
e and yoursef...=C2-
Build safe, fly safe.
Gary.
From: Joe <backstagelive@gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Merry Christmas fellow builders!
Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces whe
n
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.
Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?
How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?
Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?
Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/24/17 |
Hello Joe,
Human body will survive only limited Gs...=C2-
Anything above it is fatal, harness or not...=C2-
Falling objects (out of control)=C2- increases the speed and Gs extreamly
fast.=C2- Read about how much impact Gs the human organs survive,=C2-
=C2- some fail fast (brain passes away for proteccion), lungs get perfora
ted probably with the force of the harness breaking the ribs)... probably t
he hearth can be the last one to stop)...=C2-
Sorry for the pilot and family...=C2-
Gary
From: Joe <backstagelive@gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 9:57 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/24/17
I would like to also offer my condolences and prayers to the family. It's
hard to comment on these things that happen, especially before the findings
from the NTSB.
But I would like to make one comment. I went on YouTube and looked at the
videos of the plane that are posted and I noticed that in the videos the
plane had no shoulder harnesses. A 45 degree angle as mentioned on this
thread is hard to survive, but in the stories printed on the accident, it
seems the pilot did not immediately pass on impact. Seeing the wings and
tail did not leave the plane, I am just wondering out loud: could shoulder
harnesses have saved his life? For me, after seeing this, I am installing 4
point harnesses in my plane.
Joe
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
Hi Gary and Joe;
Hi All;
We had an accident here at little old Oak Harbor Airport two summers ago. I
t concerned the parachute company that was flying a modified C-182. The pla
ne reached altitude, and all but one parachutist did what they came up for.
One decided not to jump and somehow got into the right seat. The pilot spe
nt too much time talking to NAS Whidbey, which was keeping them out of the
way of some Naval activity and apparently didn't want to admit he had cut f
uel on board somewhat short to take on all jumpers. They ran out of fuel on
approach and hit a madrona tree, which are quite resilient. The engine and
cowling went through a crotch, so the engine, cowling, and cockpit floor w
ent through, but the wings and rear fuselage stopped dead. The aircraft sep
arated into two separate pieces. The upper anchors for the restraints staye
d with the wings and fuselage. The lower anchors went through the crotch wi
th the front of the aircraft. At this point any experienced pilot is thinki
ng, this isn't going to end well. Everyone is going to die. Well the actual
outcome was that both occupants were thrown out onto the ground and walked
away from the wreck. There was one broken collarbone. I do hope, but don't
know, that it was the collarbone of the pilot.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence... Airplanes fly
way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the air :
-) even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt, can kill yo
u)
Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts, is only on learning Fl
ying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluiding avo
id "got to fly no matter what")
Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent becaus
e of cero visibility) will increase the speed of the plane geometrically fa
st! 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash (miracles happen)...
Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airpla
ne down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manov
er trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning
to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather, or too c
lose to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly, not to crash. A winged money transport will not
fly.... Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledge and yoursef...
Build safe, fly safe.
Gary.
From: Joe <backstagelive@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Merry Christmas fellow builders!
Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces whe
n
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.
Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?
How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?
Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?
Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.msp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/cont===============
=========
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
As I mentioned in my post...=C2- Miracless Do Happen!=C2-=C2- At my a
ge (65)=C2- I am very happy with my Guardian Angel Job...=C2-=C2-=C2
- Hang gliders, motorcycles (road and off road), race cars (quit $$$),par
achute jumps (quit a few years ago), ultralights, skateboard (quit at 50...
just in case) =C2- Several close calls but fortunate still here still en
joying my retirement...=C2- and keeping busy
From: "ashleysc@broadstripe.net" <ashleysc@broadstripe.net>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hi Gary and Joe;Hi All;We had an accident here at little old Oak Harbor Air
port two summers ago. It concerned the parachute company that was flying a
modified C-182. The plane reached altitude, and all but one parachutist did
what they came up for. One decided not to jump and somehow got into the ri
ght seat. The pilot spent too much time talking to NAS Whidbey, which was k
eeping them out of the way of some Naval activity and apparently didn't wan
t to admit he had cut fuel on board somewhat short to take on all jumpers.
They ran out of fuel on approach and hit a madrona tree, which are quite re
silient. The engine and cowling went through a crotch, so the engine, cowli
ng, and cockpit floor went through, but the wings and rear fuselage stopped
dead. The aircraft separated into two separate pieces. The upper anchors f
or the restraints stayed with the wings and fuselage. The lower anchors wen
t through the crotch with the front of the aircraft. At this point any expe
rienced pilot is thinking, this isn't going to end well. Everyone is going
to die. Well the actual outcome was that both occupants were thrown out ont
o the ground and walked away from the wreck. There was one broken collarbon
e. I do hope, but don't know, that it was the collarbone of the pilot.Cheer
s!=C2- =C2-Stu.
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence...=C2- Airplane
s fly way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the
air :-)=C2- even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt,
can kill you)
Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts,=C2- is only on learn
ing Flying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluidi
ng avoid "got to fly no matter what") =C2-
Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent becaus
e of cero visibility)=C2- will increase the speed of the plane geometrica
lly fast!=C2- 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash=C2- (miracles h
appen)...
Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airpla
ne down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manov
er trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning
to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather,=C2- or
too close to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly,=C2- not to crash.=C2- A winged money transp
ort will not fly....=C2- Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledg
e and yoursef...=C2-
Build safe, fly safe.
Gary.
From: Joe <backstagelive@gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Merry Christmas fellow builders!
Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces whe
n
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.
Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?
How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?
Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?
Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.msp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/cont===============
========
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
Hi Gary;
It looks to me that you know how to do dangerous things safely.
I was a caver, rock climber, snow and ice climber, scuba diver, Alaskan gui
de, worked for two companies that dealt with explosive atmospheres, dived t
o 1500 ft. in a diving capsule. Retired and got my Light Sport License at 7
0; 77 now. Building a Zodiac 601, XLB.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 6:50:58 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
As I mentioned in my post... Miracless Do Happen! At my age (65) I am very
happy with my Guardian Angel Job... Hang gliders, motorcycles (road and off
road), race cars (quit $$$),parachute jumps (quit a few years ago), ultral
ights, skateboard (quit at 50... just in case) Several close calls but fort
unate still here still enjoying my retirement... and keeping busy
From: "ashleysc@broadstripe.net" <ashleysc@broadstripe.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hi Gary and Joe;
Hi All;
We had an accident here at little old Oak Harbor Airport two summers ago. I
t concerned the parachute company that was flying a modified C-182. The pla
ne reached altitude, and all but one parachutist did what they came up for.
One decided not to jump and somehow got into the right seat. The pilot spe
nt too much time talking to NAS Whidbey, which was keeping them out of the
way of some Naval activity and apparently didn't want to admit he had cut f
uel on board somewhat short to take on all jumpers. They ran out of fuel on
approach and hit a madrona tree, which are quite resilient. The engine and
cowling went through a crotch, so the engine, cowling, and cockpit floor w
ent through, but the wings and rear fuselage stopped dead. The aircraft sep
arated into two separate pieces. The upper anchors for the restraints staye
d with the wings and fuselage. The lower anchors went through the crotch wi
th the front of the aircraft. At this point any experienced pilot is thinki
ng, this isn't going to end well. Everyone is going to die. Well the actual
outcome was that both occupants were thrown out onto the ground and walked
away from the wreck. There was one broken collarbone. I do hope, but don't
know, that it was the collarbone of the pilot.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence... Airplanes fly
way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the air :
-) even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt, can kill yo
u)
Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts, is only on learning Fl
ying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluiding avo
id "got to fly no matter what")
Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent becaus
e of cero visibility) will increase the speed of the plane geometrically fa
st! 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash (miracles happen)...
Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airpla
ne down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manov
er trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning
to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather, or too c
lose to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly, not to crash. A winged money transport will not
fly.... Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledge and yoursef...
Build safe, fly safe.
Gary.
From: Joe <backstagelive@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Merry Christmas fellow builders!
Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces whe
n
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.
Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?
How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?
Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?
Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.msp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/cont===============
=========
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