Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:53 AM - Seat Belts (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net)
2. 07:42 AM - Re: Seat Belts (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
3. 01:58 PM - Wing root fairings 601/650 (afterfxllc)
4. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (Brent Cameron)
5. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 (Gary Gower)
6. 08:47 PM - Re: Wing root fairings 601/650 (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
Message 1
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Guys
I have a friend that crashed his RV. His engine quit and he had to put it down
in the woods.
He picked out two trees and went between them taking off both wings. The fuselage
went another 40' and burrowed in the ground. He used seat belts from the car
racing industry. The two shoulder straps were sewed into a wye with a single
attach to the air frame. The straps did not break but the stitching unraveled
on impact. He had facial injures and two large black eyes for several months.
I believe he would have died if the belt had not slowed his body before his face
hit the instrument panel. I believe the belts serve a dual purpose of keeping
you in the seat in turbulent air AND restraint upon a high G crash.
Bobby
Age 79
Message 2
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Hi Bobby;
I agree, and I feel the four point harnesses do a better job than the three point.
The lap belt found in many older certified aircraft is just an invitation
to concussion.
Cheers! Stu.
(only 77)
----- Original Message -----
From: BobbyPaulk@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 6:53:05 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Seat Belts
Guys
I have a friend that crashed his RV. His engine quit and he had to put it down
in the woods.
He picked out two trees and went between them taking off both wings. The fuselage
went another 40' and burrowed in the ground. He used seat belts from the car
racing industry. The two shoulder straps were sewed into a wye with a single
attach to the air frame. The straps did not break but the stitching unraveled
on impact. He had facial injures and two large black eyes for several months.
I believe he would have died if the belt had not slowed his body before his face
hit the instrument panel. I believe the belts serve a dual purpose of keeping
you in the seat in turbulent air AND restraint upon a high G crash.
Bobby
Age 79
Message 3
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| Subject: | Wing root fairings 601/650 |
SGV5IGd1eXMvZ2FscwpJIGhhdmUgd2luZyByb290IGZhaXJpbmdzIGZvciBzYWxlIGZvciB0aGUg
NjAxLzY1MC4gWW91IGNhbiBtZXNzYWdlIG1lIG9mZiBsaXN0IGZvciBwaWN0dXJlcyBhbmQgaW5m
b3JtYXRpb24uIFRoZXJlIGFyZSBwaWN0dXJlcyBvbiB0aGUgemVuaXRoIGFlcm8gc2l0ZSBhbmQg
b24gdGhlIHplbml0aCBmYiBwYWdlLgpKZWZmIEdhcnJldHQ1MDItNTM2LTM0ODFKZWZmcmV5Y3Jh
aWdnYXJyZXR0QGdtYWlsLmNvbQoKClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBTcHJpbnQgU2Ftc3VuZyBHYWxheHkg
UzcgZWRnZS4
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
While I fully agree with many of your points about preventing an accident
in the first place, I emphatically disagree with your point about the po
intlessness of seatbelts in our Zenith=99s because of impact speed.
=C2-I=99ve had the (extremely) unpleasant experience of looking
at the remains of wreckage of a stall/spin crash in a C-172 that could we
ll have been survivable except for the fact that the pilot got impaled on
the control column and had his brains all over the instrument panel beca
use he wasn=99t wearing his shoulder belt properly. =C2-His legs
weren=99t broken but even at 50 mph, there is no way you could hold
yourself from bending like a piece of wet noodle around a waist seatbelt
- basic physics - the force of impact goes up with the square of the vel
ocity.
Our airplanes have a very slow stall speed so unless you rip the wings of
f, spiral in at high speed due to lack of visual references or fly into t
he ground because you were where you shouldn=99t be, there is no re
ason why the impact with the ground has to be at a speed that is not surv
ivable. In a forced landing, if you can get the airplane turned into any
sort of a headwind, you could certainly reduce the impact velocity to som
ething that is very survivable.
I=99m putting 4 point harnesses in mine.
On Dec 26, 2017, 3:32 AM -0500, Paul Mulwitz <psm=40att.net>, wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> I built and fly a similar plane to the 650 (CH601XL).=C2- I use the t
hree point belts included in my kit.
>
> I don't see seat belts having the same purpose in light planes as they
do in automobiles.=C2- They are necessary to keep people in their seats
in turbulent air rather than to provide protection in frontal collisions
.=C2- If you collide with a mountain or even a solid hit on a tree at n
ormal flying speeds (120 kts)=C2- you are going to die no matter what s
ort of restraints you have.
>
> Safety in aviation (in my opinion) comes from maintaining control of th
e plane along with keeping it away from solid objects.=C2- =46lying clo
se to the ground or other solid objects is very dangerous.=C2- Losing c
ontrol of you plane for any reason is also dangerous.=C2- Most airplane
accidents result from dangerous flying such as hot dogging or high speed
flight close to the ground.=C2- There are also plenty of stall/spin ac
cidents that start with an approach that passes the runway center line on
turn to final and the pilot makes a steep turn while flying low and slow
.=C2- I suggest you would do a lot more to protect yourself and your pa
ssengers by installing an angle of attack instrument of some sort and lea
rning how to use it to prevent stalls than by installing fancy seat belts
.=C2- I have a home built lift reserve indicator (LRI) that I built for
less than =2450 while waiting for one of my sub-kits which performs a si
milar function.=C2- You can find plans for an LRI for free on the net.
>
> I should also mention that learning to fly on instruments and handling
unusual attitudes on instruments can also go a long way toward saving you
r life.=C2- It would be good to go all the way and get an instrument ra
ting but just being able to fly straight and level along with the 180 lev
el turn and unusual attitude recovery are the really important skills.=C2
- Even for strictly V=46R pilots it is only a matter of when rather tha
n if that you will run into situations where lack of ability to fly on th
e gauges means you are unable to maintain control of your plane.
>
> Good luck
>
> Paul
> Camas, WA
> N773PM
>
> On 12/25/2017 9:10 PM, Joe wrote:
l.com>
> >
> > Merry Christmas fellow builders=21
> >
> > Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
> > 601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat
belts,
> > other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
> >
> > I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, b
ut I
> > have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked air
craft
> > that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots a
ren't
> > that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forc
es when
> > you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accident
s are
> > very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
> > deceleration force.
> >
> > Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
> >
> > How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints=3F
> >
> > How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you reco
mmend
> > it to other builders=3F
> >
> > Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and h
ow are
> > you attaching it to your spar=3F
> >
> > Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
> >
> > Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 |
That is te great thing about Homebuilt and Experimental...=C2-=C2-=C2
- You can do what ever you think is good.=C2-=C2-=C2-
The big problem (was more easy to notice in wooden airplanes) was the "impr
ovement" that the builder do "for safety"=C2- for example;=C2- add 1/8"
of wood in thickness to each piece he planned...=C2- Put the next size i
n bolts...=C2- Etc...=C2- Until all this extra weight made the airplane
dangerously unsafe (overweight or out of the C/G range).
A local old timer=C2- builder used to say that=C2- the Cool Factor was
the sound of staight stacks in the engine...=C2-=C2- Fear Factor, when
the builder added useless weight "for safety"...He always told us...=C2-
(was the time when all were plans built from scratch)=C2- Build your plan
e as light as possible...=C2- Build it to fly not to crash.=C2- Chichen
s are heavy and not intended to fly...=C2-=C2-
We should think how to improve our skills and judgement to fly better, not
how to avoid getting killed in a crash...=C2- we have to enjoy flying, ch
ose good climate, etc... not suffer the experience...=C2-
Build it as close to the plans as possible and fly it as much as possible,
=C2- practice is the best way to avoid incindents.
From: Brent Cameron <brentcameron61@gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
While I fully agree with many of your points about preventing an accident i
n the first place, I emphatically disagree with your point about the pointl
essness of seatbelts in our Zenith=99s because of impact speed. =C2
-I=99ve had the (extremely) unpleasant experience of looking at the
remains of wreckage of a stall/spin crash in a C-172 that could well have
been survivable except for the fact that the pilot got impaled on the contr
ol column and had his brains all over the instrument panel because he wasn
=99t wearing his shoulder belt properly. =C2-His legs weren
=99t broken but even at 50 mph, there is no way you could hold yourself fro
m bending like a piece of wet noodle around a waist seatbelt - basic physic
s - the force of impact goes up with the square of the velocity. =C2-
Our airplanes have a very slow stall speed so unless you rip the wings off,
spiral in at high speed due to lack of visual references or fly into the g
round because you were where you shouldn=99t be, there is no reason w
hy the impact with the ground has to be at a speed that is not survivable.
In a forced landing, if you can get the airplane turned into any sort of a
headwind, you could certainly reduce the impact velocity to something that
is very survivable.=C2-
I=99m putting 4 point harnesses in mine. =C2-
On Dec 26, 2017, 3:32 AM -0500, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>, wrote:
Hi Joe,
I built and fly a similar plane to the 650 (CH601XL).=C2- I use the three
point belts included in my kit.
I don't see seat belts having the same purpose in light planes as they do i
n automobiles.=C2- They are necessary to keep people in their seats in tu
rbulent air rather than to provide protection in frontal collisions.=C2-
If you collide with a mountain or even a solid hit on a tree at normal flyi
ng speeds (120 kts)=C2- you are going to die no matter what sort of restr
aints you have.=C2-
Safety in aviation (in my opinion) comes from maintaining control of the pl
ane along with keeping it away from solid objects.=C2- Flying close to th
e ground or other solid objects is very dangerous.=C2- Losing control of
you plane for any reason is also dangerous.=C2- Most airplane accidents r
esult from dangerous flying such as hot dogging or high speed flight close
to the ground.=C2- There are also plenty of stall/spin accidents that sta
rt with an approach that passes the runway center line on turn to final and
the pilot makes a steep turn while flying low and slow.=C2- I suggest yo
u would do a lot more to protect yourself and your passengers by installing
an angle of attack instrument of some sort and learning how to use it to p
revent stalls than by installing fancy seat belts.=C2- I have a home buil
t lift reserve indicator (LRI) that I built for less than $50 while waiting
for one of my sub-kits which performs a similar function.=C2- You can fi
nd plans for an LRI for free on the net.
I should also mention that learning to fly on instruments and handling unus
ual attitudes on instruments can also go a long way toward saving your life
.=C2- It would be good to go all the way and get an instrument rating but
just being able to fly straight and level along with the 180 level turn an
d unusual attitude recovery are the really important skills.=C2- Even for
strictly VFR pilots it is only a matter of when rather than if that you wi
ll run into situations where lack of ability to fly on the gauges means you
are unable to maintain control of your plane.
Good luck
Paul
Camas, WA
N773PM
On 12/25/2017 9:10 PM, Joe wrote:
Merry Christmas fellow builders!
Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.
I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces whe
n
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.
Here are some questions we would like to discuss.
How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?
How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?
Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?
Any help you can give would be most appreciated.
Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings 601/650 |
Hi Jeff;
Looked on Zenith Aero site and can't find them. Are you talking about standard
rubber fairings or special fiberglass or aluminum?
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "afterfxllc" <afterfxllc@AOL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 1:57:43 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Wing root fairings 601/650
Hey guys/gals
I have wing root fairings for sale for the 601/650. You can message me off list
for pictures and information. There are pictures on the zenith aero site and
on the zenith fb page.
Jeff Garrett
502-536-3481
Jeffreycraiggarrett@gmail.com
Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7 edge.
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