---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith650-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/20/14: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:19 AM - New prospective builder (Ernest Christley) 2. 10:43 AM - Re: New prospective builder (Steve Freeman (SDS)) 3. 12:17 PM - Re: New prospective builder (Ernest Christley) 4. 01:03 PM - Re: New prospective builder (Steve Freeman (SDS)) 5. 02:23 PM - Re: New prospective builder (Ernest Christley) 6. 03:45 PM - Re: New prospective builder (Steve Freeman (SDS)) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:00 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder Hi, everyone.- My name is Ernest Christley, and I like to build airplanes .- Thank you for inviting me here to this meeting of ABA (Airplane Builde rs Anonymous).=0A=0AI spent way to long building a Dyke Delta.- I got it to the point of fast taxi, but for a host of reasons, I'll never fly it.- I'm now looking for something cheap that fits into the LSA regime with a d ecent cruise and easy flying characteristics and doesn't take forever to bu ild.- The 650 with a corvair on the nose looks like it wins on all fronts .=0A=0AI'm trying to get up to speed on the design, without asking a lot of redundant questions, or reading 100 megabytes of txt from previous posts ( most of which will be irrelevant at this point).- Does the list or someon e else carry a FAQ that will get me jump started on the peculiarities and h istory of the design?=0A=0AThere is one question that I really can't find t he answer to.- The bulging shape of the fuselage in the wing root area in terrupts airflow and causes the plane to loose significant performance.- Several builders have resorted to designing and building wing root fairings and recorded the increased performance (higher cruise, lower stall).- It was stated by one builder that this design detail is a well known principl e that any mediocre aviation engineer should be aware of.- My question is , "Why are kits still being sold with such an obvious design flaw?- Why a re wing root fairings not part of the kit?"- I understand manufacturing i nertia and all that, but the 650B was a new design.- Could straightening the cockpit sides have been that much of a design change? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:43 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder From: "Steve Freeman (SDS)" Here is the thing, The 650/601 (any version, XL/HD/HDS) is not meant to be a high performance airplane. If that is what you want, build and RV6, 7 or 8. I have a good friend who added the faring you mention and they allowed for marginal improvement that becomes imperceptible if there is any kind of wind. The "bulge" in the fuselage allows for a wider cabin that allows for much more comfortable seating for two people. There is a tradeoff here for the little bit of performance that might be achieved by slimming the fuselage. For me, for the 1 to 4 knots (you might gain in zero wind) I will opt for a more comfortable cabin. The 650 was not design for speed. The BIG, FAT wing will prevent any serious speed performance more than anything else. If you are looking for an airplane that is going to perform better than a consistent 125mph you need to look for a different plane. The 650 is not for you no matter what you do to shave a knot here and there. Steve Steve Freeman 602-228-3830 From: owner-zenith650-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith650-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 10:19 AM Subject: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder Hi, everyone. My name is Ernest Christley, and I like to build airplanes. Thank you for inviting me here to this meeting of ABA (Airplane Builders Anonymous). I spent way to long building a Dyke Delta. I got it to the point of fast taxi, but for a host of reasons, I'll never fly it. I'm now looking for something cheap that fits into the LSA regime with a decent cruise and easy flying characteristics and doesn't take forever to build. The 650 with a corvair on the nose looks like it wins on all fronts. I'm trying to get up to speed on the design, without asking a lot of redundant questions, or reading 100 megabytes of txt from previous posts (most of which will be irrelevant at this point). Does the list or someone else carry a FAQ that will get me jump started on the peculiarities and history of the design? There is one question that I really can't find the answer to. The bulging shape of the fuselage in the wing root area interrupts airflow and causes the plane to loose significant performance. Several builders have resorted to designing and building wing root fairings and recorded the increased performance (higher cruise, lower stall). It was stated by one builder that this design detail is a well known principle that any mediocre aviation engineer should be aware of. My question is, "Why are kits still being sold with such an obvious design flaw? Why are wing root fairings not part of the kit?" I understand manufacturing inertia and all that, but the 650B was a new design. Could straightening the cockpit sides have been that much of a design change? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:15 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder Thank you, Steve.=C2- I agree that it isn't designed for high performance , but that isn't an excuse for pointlessly sloppy design, now is it?=C2- Pulling the bulge in isn't the only answer.=C2- Expanding the firewall an d baggage area is an equally acceptable solution.=C2- As I understand it, the requirement is simply that the fuselage be of constant width in the ar ea of the wing.=C2- Throwing away even 1kt for such a seemingly small cha nge seems a little counterintuitive.=C2- We don't stick our radiators out in the wind like was done in the 20s, and then say, "It's not supposed to be high performance!", do we?=C2- No, because we all know better.=0A=0A =0AFWIW, the information I had that raised the question in my mind is locat ed at http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/hidden_drag.pdf=0AThe author indicates an 8kt reduction in stall speed for one test scenario, and a 5kts increase in cruise speed for another scenario.=C2- I can't vouch for you r good friend for Mr. Klaus, but the data he has published does beg for que stions.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:43 PM, Steve Freeman (SDS) wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0AHere is the thing,=0A=0AThe 6 50/601 (any version, XL/HD/HDS) is not meant to be a high performance airpl ane.=C2- If that is what you want, build and RV6, 7 or 8.=C2- I have a good friend who added the faring you mention and they allowed for marginal improvement that becomes imperceptible if there is any kind of wind.=0A=0AT he =9Cbulge=9D in the fuselage allows for a wider cabin that al lows for much more comfortable seating for two people.=C2- There is a tra deoff here for the little bit of performance that might be achieved by slim ming the fuselage.=C2- For me, for the 1 to 4 knots (you might gain in ze ro wind) I will opt for a more comfortable cabin.=0A=0AThe 650 was not desi gn for speed.=C2- The BIG, FAT wing will prevent any serious speed perfor mance more than anything else.=0A=0AIf you are looking for an airplane that is going to perform better than a consistent 125mph you need to look for a different plane.=C2- The 650 is not for you no matter what you do to sha ve a knot here and there.=0A=0ASteve ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder From: "Steve Freeman (SDS)" PDwgRXhwYW5kaW5nIHRoZSBmaXJld2FsbCBhbmQgYmFnZ2FnZSBhcmVhIGlzIGFuIGVxdWFsbHkg YWNjZXB0YWJsZSBzb2x1dGlvbi4gPj4NCg0KTWF5YmUsIGJ1dCB0aGlzIGZhbGxzIGluIHRvIHRo ZSBtdWNoIGVhc2llciBzYWlkIHRoYW4gZG9uZSBjYXRlZ29yeS4gIEV2ZW4gbWlub3IgY2hhbmdl cyB0byB0aGUgYWlyZnJhbWUgcmVzdWx0IGluIGh1Z2UgZXhwYW5zaW9ucyB0byBidWlsZCB0aW1l LiAgSSBzdXBwb3NlIG1ha2luZyBzdWNoIGEgY2hhbmdlIGF0IHRoZSBkZXNpZ24gbGV2ZWwgd291 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ICAgICAgICAtIE1BVFJPTklDUyBXRUIgRk9SVU1TIC0NCl8tPSBTYW1lIGdyZWF0IGNvbnRlbnQg YWxzbyBhdmFpbGFibGUgdmlhIHRoZSBXZWIgRm9ydW1zIQ0KXy09DQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDov L2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQpfLT0NCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBMaXN0 IENvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbiBXZWIgU2l0ZSAtDQpfLT0gIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBnZW5lcm91 cyBzdXBwb3J0IQ0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxl LCBMaXN0IEFkbWluLg0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jb250cmli dXRpb24NCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09DQogDQo ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:58 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder =0A=0AOn Tuesday, May 20, 2014 4:02 PM, Steve Freeman (SDS) wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A>>I suppose making such a change at the de sign level would negate that reality but for what?=C2- Additionally, I th ink what you suggest would be fugly and you have zero proof it would provid e your desired result.=C2- =0A=0A=0AThe link I provided documented a 16% decrease in stall speed after providing a clear explanation of why it works . =C2-=C2- =0A=0A=0A<>=0A=0A>>You are going to make many decisions as you build that will impact the airplane=99s performance far more than this.=C2- Build it straight, build it true and build it li ght.=C2- There is your 5 knots.=C2-=0A=0AWhy not add the wing fairing a nd get another 5 knots?=C2- They are not mutually exclusive.=0A=0A=0A=C2 -<< The author indicates an 8kt reduction>>=0A=0A>>OK =93 if he say s so.=C2- Is that on a Standard Day at sea level in a zero wind condition ?=0A=0ADidn't bother to look at it, huh?=C2- If you're not going to look at the proof offered, how can you say there is no proof?=C2- =0A=0A=0A>>F urthermore, the bulge you mention was far more prevalent in the HD/HDS mode ls with the center wing section than in the XL or 650 model.=C2- I do not see this as nearly the issue it was in the past.=0A=C2- =0A=0AThank you, Steve.=C2- That is a VERY useful tidbit.=C2- If the bulge has been red uced, it may be an indication that Zenith DID correct the problem.=C2- Th ese sort of airflow issues are not linear, so reducing it a little may make it immeasurable.=0A=0A=0A>>If you are that concerned about +/- 5 knots I t hink you are in the wrong airplane.=C2- But if you want to address some o f these issues without redesigning the airplane you should take a hard look at the RV-12 which is Van=99s answer to a very similar airplane.=C2 - Have fun squeezing in though if you and passenger are both over 190lbs. =0A=0A=0AWhat I hear you saying here is that if I'm not going to drink the koolaid, I should go away?=C2- Really?=C2- The Zodiac designs are perfe ct airplanes and a person has to buy in completely, no questions asked, or go away?=C2- I think you do the Zodiac community a disservice, Mr. Freema n.=C2- The RV12 is extremely expensive compared to a 650B, and as you ins inuate does not have the shoulder room.=0A=0A=0A<>=0A=0A>>On this list I think you will find p eople get a little touchy when you call designer (Chris Heintz) =9Cin tentionally sloppy=9D or insinuate he is somehow less than a =9Cmediocre aviation engineer.=9D =C2-=C2-Unless you are an above average Aviation Engineer you need to be very careful about making those k ind of claims.=C2- Don=99t get me wrong I have my issues with ZAC b ut I think the airplane itself is very well suited to the defined mission. =C2- =0A=C2- =0A=0AA quote from the article I linked to:=C2- "So, don 't expect anything new to be reported here.=C2- Any aeronautical engineer is well aware of what I am writing about.=C2- But, equally true, the sim ple facts I will describe have been ignored in some of yesterday's designs and are still being ignored in some of today's designs."=0A=0AYour defense of Mr. Heintz is endearing, but I'm not into hero worship.=C2- I am an en gineer, and I'm well aware that many times subtle design decisions are made without being fully cognizant of their ramifications.=C2- Sometimes out of ignorance, but more often from expediency.=C2- There's a lot of confli cting issues to sort out when designing a complex object like an airplane. =C2- Mr Heintz did a good job, else I wouldn't be considering a 650B.=C2 - Doesn't mean that he shouldn't be second guessed to the best of my abil ity before I lay out $15,000 of my money for a stack of aluminum.=C2- It' s all simple physics.=C2- Between adults, "Why did you design it that way ?" should never be answered with, "Just trust me." (Though, "I had to pick SOMETHING!" is perfectly adequate.)=0A=0A=0A>>More than anything you need t o remember you are not building the space shuttle.=C2- You should not mic romanage this decision.=C2- If you want a fun to fly sport plane that is comfortable and performs reasonably well the 601 series is a nice plane.=C2 - If you want something else, I think you need to look at other options. =C2- Seriously though, this is not your plane if you are concerned about +/- 5 knots.=C2- You will make yourself crazy chasing that unicorn. =0A =0A=0AAre you taking yourself seriously?=C2- The whole experimental commu nity is out chasing 5kts.=C2- Isn't that about what you can expect to get for the cost of a set of wheel pants?=C2- But I think you've answered my original question.=C2- The fuselage has been modified in the 650B to red uce the bulge to the point that the interference drag is all but eliminated , negating the need for significant root fairings. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith650-List: New prospective builder From: "Steve Freeman (SDS)" PDwgRGlkbid0IGJvdGhlciB0byBsb29rIGF0IGl0LCBodWg/ICwgPj4NCg0KSSBoYXZlIHJlYWQg dGhpcyBhcnRpY2xlIGluIHRoZSBwYXN0LiANCg0KVGhlIGFydGljbGUgeW91IHJlZmVyZW5jZSBp cyBhYm91dCBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCBhaXJwbGFuZSBhbmQgdGhlIHJlc3VsdHMgZnJvbSB0aGF0IGFy dGljbGUgY2Fubm90IGJlIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8gdGhlIDY1MCBhaXJmcmFtZS4gIFJlYWRpbmcgb3Ig cHJlc2VudGluZyB0aGlzIG5vdyBkb2VzIG5vdCBhZGQgdmFsdWUgdG8gdGhpcyBjb252ZXJzYXRp b24uICBUaGUgNjUwIGFuZCB0aGUgNjAxSERTIGhhdmUgYW4gZW50aXJlbHkgZGlmZmVyZW50IGNl bnRlciB3aW5nIHNlY3Rpb24uICBBbnkgcmVzdWx0cyBvYnRhaW5lZCBvbiB0aGF0IGFpcmZyYW1l IGNhbm5vdCBiZSBhcHBsaWVkIHRvIHRoZSA2NTAuICANCg0KIA0KDQo8PCBob3cgY2FuIHlvdSBz YXkgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gcHJvb2Y/Pj4NCg0KSSBoYXZlIG5vIGlkZWEgaWYgdGhpcyBtb2Qgd291 bGQgb2ZmZXIgYW55IHJlc3VsdHMgb24gdGhlIDY1MCwgaXQgbWlnaHQuICBCdXQgbm8gc3VjaCBw cm9vZiBpcyBicm91Z2h0IHRvIHRoaXMgY29udmVyc2F0aW9uIGluIHRoZSBhcnRpY2xlIHlvdSBh 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