Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:06 AM - Test flying a 701 (george.mueller@aurora.org)
2. 07:24 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (Randall J. Hebert)
3. 09:12 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (Charles Chappell)
4. 09:30 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (Randall J. Hebert)
5. 09:31 AM - Re : Re: Test flying a 701 (jrmjoseph@videotron.ca)
6. 09:40 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (kmccune)
7. 11:30 AM - Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300 (kmccune)
8. 11:39 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (MacDonald Doug)
9. 12:33 PM - Re: Test flying a 701 (John Swanson)
10. 01:20 PM - Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300 (Tim Juhl)
11. 02:11 PM - Re: Test flying a 701 (Charles Chappell)
12. 03:47 PM - Main landing gear (John Short)
13. 07:24 PM - Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300 (kmccune)
14. 07:39 PM - Re: Test flying a 701 (kmccune)
15. 07:44 PM - Re: Issues you encountered during initial flights of your 701 (kmccune)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to
that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo
landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right
seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I
wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you
are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields.
Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has
proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup.
On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting
about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second
try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I
currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This
power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee
was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the
first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the
technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators
on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when
landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in
cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of
flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
Message 2
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
George
Do you simply leave the brackets exposed, or do you remove them and
change the nose skin to eliminate the slots?
I am closing up my right wing now and had the intention of not putting
the slats on at all and going straight to the VGs initially
I changed my mind at the last minute and riveted the brackets on and cut
the slots.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:04 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close
to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70
solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of
right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I
wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and
you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields.
Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has
proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static
runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was
getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the
second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I
currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare.
This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger
Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at
the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power
or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators
on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when
landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in
cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of
flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
Message 3
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701 builder (three weeks) so
I don't find any info in the archive's about the vortex generators and
removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a direction to get some
education about this?
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to
that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo
landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right
seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I
wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you
are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial
test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be
a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup.
On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about
4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got
5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I
currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This
power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was
talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first
flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power or the
technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on
your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing,
the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats
went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
Message 4
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
You should find it in the original zenith list. This 701801 is a break
away list but subscribing to both gets you information on 601 etc.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charles Chappell
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Test flying a 701
This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701 builder (three weeks)
so I don't find any info in the archive's about the vortex generators
and removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a direction to get
some education about this?
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close
to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70
solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of
right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I
wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and
you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields.
Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has
proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static
runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was
getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the
second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I
currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare.
This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger
Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at
the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power
or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators
on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when
landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in
cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of
flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
- The Zenith701801-List Email Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
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resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
Check the Original Zenith list above the 601 list, a search there will provide
lots of ideas and opinions. Also check Stolespeed.com and
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/slats-vs-vg-design.html
The consensus of those who have don it, is that it does not reduce the STOL ability
of the airplane, but gains some fuel economy and lets the airplane land more
conventionally.
Kevin
[quote="Chuck Chappell"]This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701 builder
(three weeks) so I dont find any info in the archives about the vortex generators
and removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a direction to get some
education about this?
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:04 AM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close to that
process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70 solo landings
in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of right seat
flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but I wouldn't
do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and you are in an
awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields. Initial test
flights from small backyard fields with trees around has proven to be a bad
idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static runup. On
my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was getting about 4700
rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax, I currently
carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare. This power will
cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger Lee was talking about.
Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at the first flight video to
see what happens if you don't have the power or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex generators on your
wings and elevator. The airplane is much better behaved when landing, the
STOL performance is the same, and you pick up 10mph in cruise. My slats went
up on the hanger wall at about my 5th hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
> - The Zenith701801-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
0
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> [b]
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186050#186050
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300 |
I forgot to mention that the Jabs are both limited I believe, to a 60 inch prop.
I believe it is a crank limitation due to mass for their limit, I could be
wrong its just something I think that I remember. There is more to prop thrust
then length but it is a prime component. Some place on the Zenith site they mention
the need to swing a 70 or 72 inch prop for good STOL performance.
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186064#186064
Message 8
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
Charles, this is kind of a hot button issue with some
of us builders. For the "Pro" side of the story,
check out stolspeed.com. But for the "Nay" story,
talk to Chris Heintz, the designer. He has a
statement about this on the Zenithair website.
Chris has said that it is OK if you really want to go
without slats (but with VGs) but you will loose some
STOL performance. One builder recently posted a
measured experiment on the list and he figured he lost
about 60 feet of take off performance by going
slatless(with VGs). I forget what the actual numbers
were but lets face it, 60 ft difference is pretty much
nothing and could have been explained away by a slight
gust or some other environmental effect.
As has been said here, you can pick up about 10mph of
cruise speed on the top end. Or you can cruise the
same speed with less power (less gas). So far so good
right?
Where we haven't heard of a head to head comparison is
the "L" protion of the STOL equation. The drag that
everyone is trying so hard to eliminate it part of
what makes the 701 land so short. We have heard from
pilots that claim that the 701 lands far more
conventionally with the VGs than with the slats. Some
pilots might like this but it was not the intention of
the designer for the 701 to land like a 150. The 701
is not supposed to float on landing. It is supposed
to stop very short.
>From what I have heard on this list and the old main
Zenith list, nobody has taken the VGs off and put the
slats back on(on a 701 at least). That sould tell you
something. Just be aware that there is no free lunch.
There are trade offs either way you go.
Personally, I'm going with the slats. I don't plan on
ever installing the VGs on the wings. On the tail, I
almost for sure will try them. But my plane will
likely always have the slats installed. I hopefully
have presented you with a balanced opinion on this
subject as I am biased towards slats.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Working on Flapperons
--- Charles Chappell <chuck456@pacbell.net> wrote:
> This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701
> builder (three weeks) so
> I don't find any info in the archive's about the
> vortex generators and
> removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a
> direction to get some
> education about this?
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
----- Original Message -----
From: george.mueller@aurora.org
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 10:04 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Test flying a 701
Regarding the discussion on test flying a 701, I am still pretty close
to that process and this would be my advice:
1) Get current in something like a Cessna 150 before hand. I did 70
solo landings in a C152 before step 2.
2) Get some time in a 701. I was able to get a couple of hours of
right seat flying time in a 701 before my test flight.
3) Taxi your 701 around as much as you like, to get comfortable, but
I wouldn't do much "high speed" taxi testing. It just starts to fly and
you are in an awkward situation and there is risk of damage.
4) Choose an airport with a long runway surrounded by open fields.
Initial test flights from small backyard fields with trees around has
proven to be a bad idea.
5) Make sure you are getting somewhere around 5200rpm on a static
runup. On my initial test flight I aborted the takeoff because I was
getting about 4700 rpm with full power. I repitched the prop and on the
second try got 5200.
6) Carry some power into the flare when landing. With an 80hp Rotax,
I currently carry somewhere around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm into the flare.
This power will cover you until you develop the 701 technique that Roger
Lee was talking about. Go to the "flying with Gus" website and look at
the first flight video to see what happens if you don't have the power
or the technique going for you.
7) As soon as possible, remove your slats and put the vortex
generators on your wings and elevator. The airplane is much better
behaved when landing, the STOL performance is the same, and you pick up
10mph in cruise. My slats went up on the hanger wall at about my 5th
hour of flight time.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
What do you use for flap settings?do not archieveJohn in the U.P.CH701
in progress
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300 |
Thanks all for your comments. My friend changed his order to a 2200.
The prop on a Jab is shorter but that is partly due to the fact that it turns 3300
rpm at full power. A longer prop and you could experience the tips going
supersonic. The 3300 swings a 64 inch prop.
I know there have been some issues with the crank in the Corvair but have not heard
of any on the Jab.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186086#186086
Message 11
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| Subject: | Test flying a 701 |
Thanks for the replies, I will get both sides of the story, but my tendency
is to stay with the designers recommendations. Mostly because I don't have
the education or experience to stray very far and feel safe.
Charles Chappell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MacDonald
Doug
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Test flying a 701
<dougsnash@yahoo.com>
Charles, this is kind of a hot button issue with some
of us builders. For the "Pro" side of the story,
check out stolspeed.com. But for the "Nay" story,
talk to Chris Heintz, the designer. He has a
statement about this on the Zenithair website.
Chris has said that it is OK if you really want to go
without slats (but with VGs) but you will loose some
STOL performance. One builder recently posted a
measured experiment on the list and he figured he lost
about 60 feet of take off performance by going
slatless(with VGs). I forget what the actual numbers
were but lets face it, 60 ft difference is pretty much
nothing and could have been explained away by a slight
gust or some other environmental effect.
As has been said here, you can pick up about 10mph of
cruise speed on the top end. Or you can cruise the
same speed with less power (less gas). So far so good
right?
Where we haven't heard of a head to head comparison is
the "L" protion of the STOL equation. The drag that
everyone is trying so hard to eliminate it part of
what makes the 701 land so short. We have heard from
pilots that claim that the 701 lands far more
conventionally with the VGs than with the slats. Some
pilots might like this but it was not the intention of
the designer for the 701 to land like a 150. The 701
is not supposed to float on landing. It is supposed
to stop very short.
>From what I have heard on this list and the old main
Zenith list, nobody has taken the VGs off and put the
slats back on(on a 701 at least). That sould tell you
something. Just be aware that there is no free lunch.
There are trade offs either way you go.
Personally, I'm going with the slats. I don't plan on
ever installing the VGs on the wings. On the tail, I
almost for sure will try them. But my plane will
likely always have the slats installed. I hopefully
have presented you with a balanced opinion on this
subject as I am biased towards slats.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Working on Flapperons
--- Charles Chappell <chuck456@pacbell.net> wrote:
> This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701
> builder (three weeks) so
> I don't find any info in the archive's about the
> vortex generators and
> removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a
> direction to get some
> education about this?
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Main landing gear |
I am in the process of installing axles to the main gear. Plans show
welding a 3/4" bolt to a plate that is then bolted via 4-1/4" bolts to
the outside of the main gear.
What would be wrong with welding the bolt to the plate head and all then
bore the 3/4" hole through the main and install the welded piece from
the inside of the main in the same fashion 4- 1/4" bolts that will also
mount the brake caliper.
Seams this would offer a bit more support.
Any help welcome.
John (Scratch building 701)
Kaufman, Tx
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300 |
Your correct about the RPM and tip speed, but I believe that there was a rotational
mass limit. And strangely, I remember that I heard about it on corvair website?
Any way, 66" and 3300 rpm @ 0F is Mach .905 so 64" maybe a MFG safety
margin? Then again, it is entirely possible that I'm mistaken [Shocked] Been known
to happen :o
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186135#186135
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
I don't have a flying airplane yet, but my gut feeling is that your correct about
the short landing with slats. Heck they may even make for shorter take offs.
But the reality is that I will never need the extremes of the 701 capabilities.
I know, never say never. But who are we kidding, If I've got 50 feet and trees,
I better be contemplating dieing on a desert isle, way before trying to
take off there. So if it makes for a more conventional feel thats good. But a
lot of replys from flying VG guys don't support this. Who knows, till you try
it. The Zenith link is good, because it lets you try it, with out worrying(too
much) about engineering issues.
Kevin
do not archive
dougsnash wrote:
> Charles, this is kind of a hot button issue with some
> of us builders. For the "Pro" side of the story,
> check out stolspeed.com. But for the "Nay" story,
> talk to Chris Heintz, the designer. He has a
> statement about this on the Zenithair website.
>
> Chris has said that it is OK if you really want to go
> without slats (but with VGs) but you will loose some
> STOL performance. One builder recently posted a
> measured experiment on the list and he figured he lost
> about 60 feet of take off performance by going
> slatless(with VGs). I forget what the actual numbers
> were but lets face it, 60 ft difference is pretty much
> nothing and could have been explained away by a slight
> gust or some other environmental effect.
>
> As has been said here, you can pick up about 10mph of
> cruise speed on the top end. Or you can cruise the
> same speed with less power (less gas). So far so good
> right?
>
> Where we haven't heard of a head to head comparison is
> the "L" protion of the STOL equation. The drag that
> everyone is trying so hard to eliminate it part of
> what makes the 701 land so short. We have heard from
> pilots that claim that the 701 lands far more
> conventionally with the VGs than with the slats. Some
> pilots might like this but it was not the intention of
> the designer for the 701 to land like a 150. The 701
> is not supposed to float on landing. It is supposed
> to stop very short.
>
>
> > From what I have heard on this list and the old main
> > Zenith list, nobody has taken the VGs off and put the
> >
>
> slats back on(on a 701 at least). That sould tell you
> something. Just be aware that there is no free lunch.
> There are trade offs either way you go.
>
> Personally, I'm going with the slats. I don't plan on
> ever installing the VGs on the wings. On the tail, I
> almost for sure will try them. But my plane will
> likely always have the slats installed. I hopefully
> have presented you with a balanced opinion on this
> subject as I am biased towards slats.
>
> Doug MacDonald
> CH-701 Scratch Builder
> NW Ontario, Canada
> Working on Flapperons
>
> --- Charles Chappell wrote:
>
>
> > This is a fairly new list, and I am a very new 701
> > builder (three weeks) so
> > I don't find any info in the archive's about the
> > vortex generators and
> > removal of the slats. Can someone point me in a
> > direction to get some
> > education about this?
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186138#186138
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| Subject: | Re: Issues you encountered during initial flights of |
your 701
Thanks for all the comments, I have cut and pasted them to word docs for later
reference. Its encouraging that no one had major issues! Like I said I was thinking
about it, guess I letting my mind wonder too much!
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186141#186141
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