Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:35 AM - Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (Mike Hoffman)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (Tommy Walker)
3. 07:17 AM - 701 Flying Qualities - Turbulence (rbjjr)
4. 07:20 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (n85ae)
5. 07:42 AM - Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (txpilot)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 06/03/08 (george.mueller@aurora.org)
7. 08:16 AM - Re: *****SPAM***** Re: Test flying a 701 (Dan)
8. 09:29 AM - Re: Zenith701801-List (Chuck Deiterich)
9. 09:58 AM - Re: Zenith701801-List (kmccune)
10. 10:22 AM - Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (flyingmike9)
11. 10:23 AM - Re: Test flying a 701 (kmccune)
12. 10:36 AM - Basic GPS devices (kmccune)
13. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (Terry Phillips)
14. 10:58 AM - CH801 fuel header tank (n85ae)
15. 11:21 AM - Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (txpilot)
16. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (Larry Hursh)
17. 12:44 PM - Re: Test flying a 701 (n85ae)
18. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS (Gordon)
19. 02:54 PM - Re: fuel return.... (Zed Smith)
20. 06:12 PM - EAA Purchase/Sale Agreement (Damien and Kathy)
21. 06:44 PM - Re: EAA Purchase/Sale Agreement (Randall J. Hebert)
22. 07:02 PM - Re: Test flying a 701 (Tommy Walker)
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| Subject: | Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
I just received my Home Built Help DVD and noticed the 912 ULS engine comes plumbed
for a return fuel line. I believe they said it is meant to help remove air
from the fuel lines.
Is anyone currently at that stage and if so where did you put the return line?
The DVD just mentions to feed it back into the supply line (back behind the seat?)
Mike H
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
To add to George's excellent list.
Another thing you might want to try:
When taxi testing on the runway or on a clear taxi way, get the speed up
enough to raise the nose wheel. You can do that at a little less than 30
mph. then try taxiing down the runway with the nose wheel off the ground,
controlling the direction with rudder. My buddy could taxi the full mile of
the runway where we doing our first flight with the nose wheel off the
ground. He is better at landing the 701 pilot than me too. I could get the
nose wheel up but the awkward rudder pedals gave me trouble.
It's sort of like the tail wheel pilot who can taxi with the tail wheel off
the ground. Takes practice..
Good luck,
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N8701
60+ Hours
Building 701 #2 as we speak.
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| Subject: | 701 Flying Qualities - Turbulence |
The current discussions on flying qualities have been great and very informative.
Since we're on the subject, are there any opinions about how the 701 behaves in
turbulence? Do the same characteristics already mentioned (light weight/inertia/control
sensitivity/etc) make for a bumpy ride in turbulence? My nearest
comparison and most experience is in the C152 and I wonder how the two compare.
Thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks
Burke Johnson CH701
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
I have never flow a 701, however from test flying my Kitfox here's
some food for thought.
I bought a brand new IO-240B from Teledyne Continental. A fully
certificated proven design. I installed it, and meticulously went over
everything the engine ran flawlessly and I did a full suite of ground
runs, etc. Triple checked all the settings, etc.
On my fourth test flight the engine driven fuel pump failed, and boost
pump on it still refused to run. I was 4 miles out from the airport at
3000 feet, and luck was with me and I made the airport. I landed to
be met by a half dozen fire trucks as I declared an emergency and
the field is towered and the tower controller called out all the services
for me.
Anyway, the only thing that went wrong was that it was new equipment
and sometimes despite the best of everything new stuff sometimes
fails ... So be ready for that.
Ever since then I always fly within range of emergency landing sites
(fields, etc.) and I adjust my course as I fly to make sure I can land
somewhere if I need to.
Before that flight I always knew it could happen, but didn't really think
it would, but .. It did.
If I ever do another series of test flights, I'm going to do about 10-20
hours of it a few thousand feet above airport and not plan on going
anywhere outside of gliding range of the airport just to be safe.
Regards,
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
I noticed the deal about the return line also. I talked with my EAA tech advisor
and he said it's to prevent vapor lock. He also indicated vapor lock is not
very common with 100LL fuel (which I intend on using exclusively), so I did
not install a return line.
I once talked to Caleb at ZAC about it. He thought a return line wouldn't be necessary,
but if I did install one he recommended drilling into the top of the
gascolator and installing the return line there.
I'm thinking it might be a good idea if you're planning on running autogas. The
ethanol they're putting in autogas may cause a vapor lock issue (although I'm
probably talking outside of my expertise here).
Dan Ginty
N787DG
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 06/03/08 |
Regarding the question of what to do with the brackets for slats after you
remove the slats, I plan on cutting the existing bracket down so it sticks
out only about an inch or so. Then I am thinking of fabricating another
set of brackets that would bolt to this "stub" and then to the slats,
holding the slats in their original position. That way I can reinstall
the slats if I want to (but not have the brackets sticking out as much).
The reason for this is I am a CFI and some time in the future I was
thinking about offering builders 701 dual before they did their test
flights. I would start out with the slats off and then work the student
up to the slats. However before I would offer dual in the 701 I would
have to install dual brakes, get a waiver from the FAA for instructing in
a homebuilt, have at least 50 hours in the airplane myself and make sure
the insurance wouldn't go through the roof. So the instructing thing
won't happen anytime soon.
Most vortex generators converts just cut the brackets off and use some
kind of filler to cover up the opening in the leading edge.
George in Milwaukee
N701GM 27 hours
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
Tommy Walker wrote:
>
> To add to Georges excellent list.
>
> Another thing you might want to try:
>
> When taxi testing on the runway or on a clear taxi way, get the speed
> up enough to raise the nose wheel. You can do that at a little less
> than 30 mph. then try taxiing down the runway with the nose wheel off
> the ground, controlling the direction with rudder. My buddy could taxi
> the full mile of the runway where we doing our first flight with the
> nose wheel off the ground. He is better at landing the 701 pilot than
> me too. I could get the nose wheel up but the awkward rudder pedals
> gave me trouble.
>
> Its sort of like the tail wheel pilot who can taxi with the tail
> wheel off the ground. Takes practice.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Tommy Walker in Alabama
>
> N8701
>
> 60+ Hours
>
> Building 701 #2 as we speak.
>
> *
> *
On my plane with the 912S, this was accomplished at 3000 rpm's.
Dan Wilde
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith701801-List |
There are several Jab 2200 flying with 64 inch diameter props and some are
using 60 and 62 as well on 701's, Avid Flyers and Kitfoxes. My 64 " x 26"
pitch prop may be a bit too large and a 62x 34 might be better. I have good
ground clearance for sure.
Chuck D.
N701TX
Jab 2200
> Time: 11:30:55 AM PST US
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Jab 2200 vs 3300
> From: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
>
>
> I forgot to mention that the Jabs are both limited I believe, to a 60 inch
> prop.
> I believe it is a crank limitation due to mass for their limit, I could be
> wrong its just something I think that I remember. There is more to prop
> thrust
> then length but it is a prime component. Some place on the Zenith site
> they mention
> the need to swing a 70 or 72 inch prop for good STOL performance.
>
>
> Kevin
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith701801-List |
I don't think that most of us need anywhere near the STOL performance on take off,
or landing for that matter, that the 701 is capable of. And that extra ground
clearance is a good trade off for something that we don't need. Not to mention
the added simplicity of no redrive and air cooling! Plus the 2200 is a lot
less expensive then a Rotax !
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
here in the UK the return line has to be used i am building 601 xl and the fuel
return line goes directly back to the left fuel tank
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
Jeff,
Glad to hear that it worked out safely, and thanks for the good advise. I'll be
keeping close for awhile. Well eventually, when I get to that point!
Tommy,
Thats a good one, it gives you more ground test time and helps your technique
as well! Did anyone at the airport complain about it?
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186243#186243
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| Subject: | Basic GPS devices |
Has anyone tried these?
http://www.pocketfms.com/
http://www.gpspilot.com/products/fly.shtml
http://www.gpspilot.com/products/compass.shtml
Seem like a good addition to sectionals for little cost.
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186245#186245
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
At 10:22 AM 6/4/2008 -0700, Mike wrote:
>here in the UK the return line has to be used i am building 601 xl and
>the fuel return line goes directly back to the left fuel tank
I'm building a 601XL/Jab 3300 with fuel pumps in the wings, so my issues
are different. But, Clayton, my EAA tech counselor insists that a return
line is important and can really help with restarting the engine if vapor
lock happens. I cannot seem to understand his reasoning, but, Clayton is a
very experienced, smart guy, so I'll probably put it in. I was going to use
1/4" aluminum for the return line, and plumb it into the end of the gas
tank, probably using something like the Earl's AT985064 fitting, possibly
augmented with an Earl's Stat-O-Seal washer on the inside of the tank. The
fitting would be installed on the end of the tank using a wrench inserted
through the fuel gage hole. I'm a bit nervous about using a bulkhead
fitting on the sheet metal of the tank, but I don't want to try welding a
connection onto the tank. How are you connecting to the tank, Mike? In the
engine compartment, Clayton suggests putting a tee in the fuel line just
upstream of the carb with the return line connected to the branch,
preferably pointed upwards. Then he suggests filling the branch of the tee
with solder and drilling a smaller than #60 hole for air to return to the tank.
This approach probably goes way beyond the need for the 912ULS. I would
greatly appreciate comments on the need for the return line, and on the
implementation I've suggested.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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| Subject: | CH801 fuel header tank |
Anybody flying/building an 801 that has installed a header tank? I'm
interested to see pics of the installation if you've done it.
Thanks,
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
> I'm building a 601XL/Jab 3300 with fuel pumps in the wings, so my issues
> are different. But, Clayton, my EAA tech counselor insists that a return
> line is important and can really help with restarting the engine if vapor
> lock happens. I cannot seem to understand his reasoning, but, Clayton is a
> very experienced, smart guy, so I'll probably put it in. I was going to use
> 1/4" aluminum for the return line, and plumb it into the end of the gas
> tank, probably using something like the Earl's AT985064 fitting, possibly
> augmented with an Earl's Stat-O-Seal washer on the inside of the tank. The
> fitting would be installed on the end of the tank using a wrench inserted
> through the fuel gage hole. I'm a bit nervous about using a bulkhead
> fitting on the sheet metal of the tank, but I don't want to try welding a
> connection onto the tank. How are you connecting to the tank, Mike? In the
> engine compartment, Clayton suggests putting a tee in the fuel line just
> upstream of the carb with the return line connected to the branch,
> preferably pointed upwards. Then he suggests filling the branch of the tee
> with solder and drilling a smaller than #60 hole for air to return to the tank.
>
I'm curious if you're also installing a check valve. One of the issues I contemplated
was in the case of an engine fire. If you shut off the main line, is
there a possibility of fuel backflowing from the tank through the return line
to the engine.
Dan
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
This approach probably goes way beyond the need for the 912ULS. I would
greatly appreciate comments on the need for the return line, and on the
implementation I've suggested.
Terry Hi Terry,I've been flying a Tecnam Bravo with a 912 100 HP in it. It
does have a mechanical fuel pump but also has an electric booster pump. We
only turn it on during takeoffs and landings. The way the fuel system is routed
in the aircraft, the boost pump takes fuel out of the right tank and if it's
not being consumed, it is dumped into the left tank only (as the overflow).
The pilot has to be careful to watch the fuel in the right tank so it doesn't
go empty!We ALWAYS put the fuel selector to "BOTH" tanks. Hope I've made some
sense here for you. Best Regards,Larry HDo not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
After thinking about it a bit this afternoon, I think the real danger is
that after the first flight or two you can develop confidence too quickly.
The first flight is really a nervous event. The second you feel a bit better
by number 3-4 or so you start feeling pretty good. It would be easy
at this early stage to become relaxed and just cruise on out into your
designated test area. Which is exactly what I was doing.
I think the thing is to keep in mind for about the first half of the test
period that losing an engine is really possible.
Actually I have not been able to fly ever since, without a bit of a feeling
of dread that today might be the day I lose an engine again. I still fly
but I'll tell you I notice every quiver that comes out of the engine
anymore. :) Which is probably a good thing.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS |
I think -- the fuel in the wing tanks has enough head pressure to bypass
the mechanical pump and fill the carburetor bowls. At least that is what
appeared to happen when I did my first test run of the engine (no wings
attached) I put a 1 gal gas can on top of the fuselage. I drained fuel
from both of my sumps and then cranked the engine and it came to life
immediately. A couple of weeks ago when I moved the plane to the
airport and assembled it, I put 5 gal of fuel in the right wing tank,
the result was exactly the same. I believe any air that may developed in
the system will be quickly vented out the top of the carburetor bowls.
701 912ULS 10hr. and having a great time
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Hursh
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Fuel return line on a 912 ULS
This approach probably goes way beyond the need for the 912ULS. I would
greatly appreciate comments on the need for the return line, and on the
implementation I've suggested.
Terry Hi Terry,I've been flying a Tecnam Bravo with a 912 100 HP in it.
It does have a mechanical fuel pump but also has an electric booster
pump. We only turn it on during takeoffs and landings. The way the
fuel system is routed in the aircraft, the boost pump takes fuel out of
the right tank and if it's not being consumed, it is dumped into the
left tank only (as the overflow). The pilot has to be careful to watch
the fuel in the right tank so it doesn't go empty!We ALWAYS put the fuel
selector to "BOTH" tanks. Hope I've made some sense here for you. Best
Regards,Larry HDo not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: fuel return.... |
do not archive or anything
You fellows do realize that you'll need to install TWO fuel flow senders; one in
the return line as well as the first one in the tank-to-pump line.
Otherwise you'll indicate a heck of a lot of flow.
Regards,
Zed
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| Subject: | EAA Purchase/Sale Agreement |
Group:
I do not presently belong to the EAA. Would someone be kind enough to
forward me a copy of the EAA "Experimental, Amateur-Built Aircraft
Purchase and Sale Agreement with Waiver and Release of Liability".
Not being extremely computer literate, I am not sure if it is even
possible to forward such a document.
Thanks,
Damien
dgraham7@twcny.rr.com
Do Not Archive.
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| Subject: | EAA Purchase/Sale Agreement |
Damien
JOIN EAA it's a small fee but invaluable help AND you help EAA
Their website has a lot of information and you should be able to
download the forms you want
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Damien and Kathy
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:12 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: EAA Purchase/Sale Agreement
Group:
I do not presently belong to the EAA. Would someone be kind enough to
forward me a copy of the EAA "Experimental, Amateur-Built Aircraft
Purchase and Sale Agreement with Waiver and Release of Liability".
Not being extremely computer literate, I am not sure if it is even
possible to forward such a document.
Thanks,
Damien
dgraham7@twcny.rr.com
Do Not Archive.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Test flying a 701 |
Naw, we did our taxi testing early in the morning and late in the evening. It
was a non-towered airport....
Do Not Archive
Tommy
kmccune wrote:
> Jeff,
> Tommy,
> Thats a good one, it gives you more ground test time and helps your technique
as well! Did anyone at the airport complain about it?
>
> Kevin
--------
Tommy Walker
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