Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion... (Bob Sturgis)
2. 06:42 AM - Chat Room Reminder (George Race)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion... (Randall J. Hebert)
4. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion... (Bob Sturgis)
5. 07:53 AM - Metals (Bob Sturgis)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: Metals (Randall J. Hebert)
7. 08:36 AM - Re: Metals (Bob Sturgis)
8. 08:46 AM - Re: Metals (Dan)
9. 09:01 AM - Re: Metals (Randall J. Hebert)
10. 09:17 AM - Re: Metals (Bob Sturgis)
11. 09:31 AM - Re: Metals (Bob Sturgis)
12. 09:43 AM - Re: Metals (Randall J. Hebert)
13. 09:54 AM - Re: Metals (Dan)
14. 10:17 AM - Re: CH-750 (Chris Lewis)
15. 10:33 AM - Re: Outboard elevator hinge plate - 801 (RADUDE)
16. 10:47 AM - Re: Metals (Bob Sturgis)
17. 12:03 PM - Re: Metals (John Marzulli)
18. 12:15 PM - Re: Metals (Dan)
19. 01:45 PM - Black Velvet Plugs and Cooling (carl)
20. 04:45 PM - Fuel routing (philip smith)
21. 06:14 PM - Re: Fuel routing (ruruny@aol.com)
22. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: Fuel routing (George Race)
23. 10:46 PM - Re: 701 Project Needs Engine (Brady)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Spar Cap Extrusion... |
The square one is called architectural extrusion, and the round web is call
ed structural aluminum. The structural is just that, structural. The archit
ectural is not as strong and us used for architectural, or decoration, wind
ows, trim, etc. the square inside allows it to be used on outside corners,
as a slider, and where ever a square corner is needed. The web of the struc
tural gives it more strength. =0A-=0ABobefx=0A--- do not archive=0A
=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: SafeAirOne <safeairone@verizon.ne
t>=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:13
:57 AM=0ASubject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...=0A=0A--> Zen
ith701801-List message posted by: "SafeAirOne" <safeairone@verizon.net>=0A
=0AThanks!=0A=0A...Here are the profiles of the angles to which I refer:=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v
iewtopic.php?p=189023#189023=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments: =0A=0Ahttp://foru
========================
Message 2
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| Subject: | Chat Room Reminder |
Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM
Eastern Time.
<http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/> http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/
George
CH-701 - N73EX
ALMOST DONE
Do Not Archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Spar Cap Extrusion... |
Bob
If they are both 6061-T6, they are both the same strength.
The difference in geometric properties has very little effect in overall
strength.
I treat them the same structurally.
As you said, however, they are used in different applications.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...
The square one is called architectural extrusion, and the round web is
called structural aluminum. The structural is just that, structural. The
architectural is not as strong and us used for architectural, or
decoration, windows, trim, etc. the square inside allows it to be used
on outside corners, as a slider, and where ever a square corner is
needed. The web of the structural gives it more strength.
Bobefx
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: SafeAirOne <safeairone@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:13:57 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...
<safeairone@verizon.net>
Thanks!
...Here are the profiles of the angles to which I refer:
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189023#189023
Attachments:
<http://forums.matronics.com//files/angles_438.jpg>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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List
List
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
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available
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Spar Cap Extrusion... |
Randall, =0APut them in a vice and twist them, pound them, and the architec
tural will fail long before the structural.-Them tell me they are the sam
e. We use a lot of aluminum in the motion picture industry to build props,
and some time a persons life depends on what we build. I would never use ar
chitectural aluminum any case. The web on the structural is much better tha
n the square inside corner of the architectural.-That is where the streng
th is.=0AThe reason one is called structural and the other is called archit
ectural, is that they do not want you to use architectural for structural p
urposes, it will fail.=0ABy studio regulations we have all of our designs c
hecked out by a structural engineer and they never approve the use of archi
tectural aluminum in structures.=0A-=0ABobefx=0A-=0Ado not archive=0A
=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertass
oc.com>=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008
6:39:37 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...=0A
=0A=0ABob=0AIf they are both 6061-T6, they are both the same strength.=0A
-=0AThe difference in geometric properties has very little effect in over
all strength.=0A-=0AI treat them the same structurally.=0A-=0AAs you sa
id, however, they are used in different applications.=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A
-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0ARandall J Hebert=0A-=0ARandall J Hebert & Associa
tes, Inc=0AConsulting Civil / Structural Engineers=0ALafayette, Louisiana
=0APH 337-261-1976----- ----- FX 337-261-1977=0A-=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-zenith701801-list-server@
matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha
lf Of Bob Sturgis=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:36 AM=0ATo: zenith701801-
list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion
...=0A=0A=0AThe square one is called architectural extrusion, and the round
web is called structural aluminum. The structural is just that, structural
. The architectural is not as strong and us used for architectural, or deco
ration, windows, trim, etc. the square inside allows it to be used on outsi
de corners, as a slider, and where ever a square corner is needed. The web
of the structural gives it more strength. =0A-=0ABobefx=0A--- do no
t archive=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: SafeAirOne <safeairon
e@verizon.net>=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, June 2
2, 2008 5:13:57 AM=0ASubject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Spar Cap Extrusion...
izon.net>=0A=0AThanks!=0A=0A...Here are the profiles of the angles to which
I refer:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.mat
ronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189023#189023=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments: =0A
=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List 3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D available via
the href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
generous support! href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http:
//www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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======================== _
================
Message 5
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To Group,=0AIf you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you
can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the nov
ice.=0AExtruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectur
al Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or sq
uare corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6. =0AUltimate shear strength--
-- 6061T6 is 30=0A-----------------
--------------------- 6063T52 is
17=0A-=0ABobefx=0A-=0Ado not archive
Message 6
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Bob
That is what I am saying
You missed my point.
Comparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength
IF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different.
IF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of
the geometry.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals
To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find
just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or
square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17
Bobefx
do not archive
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Message 7
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Randall,=0A-=0AThey are not both 6061T6. See my post on metals.- =0A-
=0AEven if they were both 6061T6 the web of the structural makes it stronge
r. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except when extruded into shapes. The
thicker part is =0A-=0Astronger then the thinner. An inside radius that
is thicker-and stronger (more mass) than the square corner. Like I said t
ake a 2' length of each, put them in a vice and twist-=0A-=0Athem. Shea
r would be the same.=0A-=0AI would not stake my life on architectural.=0A
-=0ABobefx=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Randall J. Hebert
<randy@rjhebertassoc.com>=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon
day, June 23, 2008 8:00:46 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals=0A
=0A=0ABob=0AThat is what I am saying=0A-=0AYou missed my point.=0A-=0AC
omparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength=0A-=0AIF they have di
fferent Yield Strengths they will be different.=0A-=0AIF They are both 60
61-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of the geometry.=0A-
=0A-=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0ARandall J Hebert=0A-=0A
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc=0AConsulting Civil / Structural Engineer
s=0ALafayette, Louisiana=0APH 337-261-1976----- ----- FX
337-261-1977=0A-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-z
enith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-serve
r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:5
2 AM=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Zenith701801-List: Me
tals=0A=0A=0ATo Group,=0AIf you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals
.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal propertie
s for the novice.=0AExtruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extrude
d Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Archit
ectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6. =0AUltimate shear st
rength---- 6061T6 is 30=0A-------------
-------------------------
6063T52 is 17=0A-=0ABobefx=0A-=0Ado not archive=0A 3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List"'>http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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ntribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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========================
Message 8
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I just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle which has
a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also has
square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequate.
They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, but it
is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock. The
material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it with the
square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,
701 scratch builder
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals
To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just
about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square
corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17
Bobefx
do not archive
Message 9
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Bob
It is a moot point, I agree I would not use Architectural
I also agree that the thinner web is not as strong, but the radius is
not what makes it stronger, it is the different yield strength that
does. as you pointed out the T52 is about half as strong as T6
I believe we are saying the same thing. Don't use the Architectural !!!,
but not for the reason you give, for the reason I give. i.e. metal
strength not geometry.
I really like this list because we all have something to share. I
didn't realize that the square ends were architectural. I would not
have bought them anyway because they are NOT 6061-T6.
My local supplier has the rounded corners (these are classic "angles" as
I refer to them) but the only reason I bought them is because they were
T6.
Happy building. What is your amount of progress? I am about 95% with
the right wing and have all tails section done.
DO NOT Archive
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Randall,
They are not both 6061T6. See my post on metals.
Even if they were both 6061T6 the web of the structural makes it
stronger. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except when extruded into
shapes. The thicker part is
stronger then the thinner. An inside radius that is thicker and stronger
(more mass) than the square corner. Like I said take a 2' length of
each, put them in a vice and twist
them. Shear would be the same.
I would not stake my life on architectural.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertassoc.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:00:46 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Bob
That is what I am saying
You missed my point.
Comparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength
IF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different.
IF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of
the geometry.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals
To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com
<http://onlinemetals.com/> and you can find just about all you need to
know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or
square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17
Bobefx
do not archive
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List"'>http://
w
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Message 10
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Dan,=0A-=0AThanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in architectural and no
ne of my present suppliers or ones I have called carry it. We have also sta
yed away from it per our engineers due to strength issues. That is a motion
pix issue not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of my catalogs eit
her. Back to the Internet. :)=0AIn case I need 6061t6 square angle for my 7
01, where did you get yours? I do not have the kit in hand yet. Some time i
n July.=0ABobefx=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro
m: Dan <dan@hillsgun.com>=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon
day, June 23, 2008 8:46:24 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals=0A
=0A=0AI just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle wh
ich has a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also
has square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequ
ate. They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, bu
t it is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock
. The material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it wi
th the square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,=0A-=0A-70
1 scratch builder=0A-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:own
er-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-s
erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008
7:52 AM=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Zenith701801-List
: Metals=0A-=0ATo Group,=0AIf you need fast info on metals go to onlineme
tals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal prope
rties for the novice.=0AExtruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Ext
ruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Ar
chitectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6. =0AUltimate shea
r strength---- 6061T6 is 30=0A------------
-------------------------
=======================
Message 11
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Randall,=0A-=0ADan just pointed out that the angle he has is square corne
r and 60601t6.- See his post.=0A-=0AYes I like the exchange we have on
this list and I learn something new all the time.=0A-=0AMy 601 is 80% and
my 701 is not here yet. I will pick it up in July. A project that just has
one wing done. =0A-=0ABobefx =0A-=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Origi
nal Message ----=0AFrom: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertassoc.com>=0ATo:
zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:55:09 AM=0A
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals=0A=0A=0ABob=0AIt is a moot point, I
agree I would not use Architectural=0A-=0AI also agree that the thinner w
eb is not as strong, but the radius is not what makes it stronger, it is th
e different yield strength that does. as you pointed out the T52 is about h
alf as strong as T6=0A-=0AI believe we are saying the same thing. Don't u
se the Architectural !!!,-- but not for the reason you give, for the re
ason I give.- i.e. metal strength not geometry.=0A-=0AI really like thi
s list because we all have something to share.- I didn't realize that the
square ends were architectural.- I would not have bought them anyway bec
ause they are NOT 6061-T6.=0A-=0AMy local supplier has the rounded corner
s (these are classic "angles" as I refer to them)- but the only reason I
bought them is because they were T6.=0A-=0AHappy building.- What is you
r amount of progress?- I am about 95% with the right wing and have all ta
ils section done.=0A-=0ADO NOT Archive=0A-=0A-=0A-=0ARandall J Hebe
rt=0A-=0ARandall J Hebert & Associates, Inc=0AConsulting Civil / Structur
al Engineers=0ALafayette, Louisiana=0APH 337-261-1976----- --
--- FX 337-261-1977=0A-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith7018
01-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis=0ASent: Monday, June
23, 2008 10:36 AM=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zen
ith701801-List: Metals=0A=0A=0ARandall,=0A-=0AThey are not both 6061T6. S
ee my post on metals.- =0A-=0AEven if they were both 6061T6 the web of
the structural makes it stronger. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except
when extruded into shapes. The thicker part is =0A-=0Astronger then the
thinner. An inside radius that is thicker-and stronger (more mass) than t
he square corner. Like I said take a 2' length of each, put them in a vice
and twist-=0A-=0Athem. Shear would be the same.=0A-=0AI would not sta
ke my life on architectural.=0A-=0ABobefx=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message
----=0AFrom: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertassoc.com>=0ATo: zenith701801
-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:00:46 AM=0ASubject: RE:
Zenith701801-List: Metals=0A=0A=0ABob=0AThat is what I am saying=0A-=0AY
ou missed my point.=0A-=0AComparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same str
ength=0A-=0AIF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different
.=0A-=0AIF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regard
less of the geometry.=0A-=0A-=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-
=0ARandall J Hebert=0A-=0ARandall J Hebert & Associates, Inc=0AConsulting
Civil / Structural Engineers=0ALafayette, Louisiana=0APH 337-261-1976-
---- ----- FX 337-261-1977=0A-=0A=0A=0A__________________
______________=0AFrom: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto
:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis=0AS
ent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0A
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals=0A=0A=0ATo Group,=0AIf you need fast inf
o on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need
to know about metal properties for the novice.=0AExtruded Aluminum Angle 6
061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are bo
th covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is no
t 6061T6. =0AUltimate shear strength---- 6061T6 is 30=0A---
-------------------------
---------- 6063T52 is 17=0A-=0ABobefx=0A-=0Ado not
archive=0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith70180
1-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List 3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com =0A 3D
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href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List"'>http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=====
Message 12
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Great
Generally we engineers ignore the fillets when we calculate the section
properties (geometry) of the angles because it gives a slightly
conservative result.
So in fact You, Dan and Zenith are correct They are slightly stronger.
I just don't see it as enough to worry about.
I read somewhere on this list that the .093 that Zenith provides is a
special run for them. Since I am scratch building I haven't seen their
spar so I can't comment on it's shape. I am using 0.125 with the
fillets.
Do Not Archive
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Randall,
Dan just pointed out that the angle he has is square corner and 60601t6.
See his post.
Yes I like the exchange we have on this list and I learn something new
all the time.
My 601 is 80% and my 701 is not here yet. I will pick it up in July. A
project that just has one wing done.
Bobefx
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertassoc.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:55:09 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Bob
It is a moot point, I agree I would not use Architectural
I also agree that the thinner web is not as strong, but the radius is
not what makes it stronger, it is the different yield strength that
does. as you pointed out the T52 is about half as strong as T6
I believe we are saying the same thing. Don't use the Architectural !!!,
but not for the reason you give, for the reason I give. i.e. metal
strength not geometry.
I really like this list because we all have something to share. I
didn't realize that the square ends were architectural. I would not
have bought them anyway because they are NOT 6061-T6.
My local supplier has the rounded corners (these are classic "angles" as
I refer to them) but the only reason I bought them is because they were
T6.
Happy building. What is your amount of progress? I am about 95% with
the right wing and have all tails section done.
DO NOT Archive
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Randall,
They are not both 6061T6. See my post on metals.
Even if they were both 6061T6 the web of the structural makes it
stronger. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except when extruded into
shapes. The thicker part is
stronger then the thinner. An inside radius that is thicker and stronger
(more mass) than the square corner. Like I said take a 2' length of
each, put them in a vice and twist
them. Shear would be the same.
I would not stake my life on architectural.
Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertassoc.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:00:46 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Bob
That is what I am saying
You missed my point.
Comparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength
IF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different.
IF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of
the geometry.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977
________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals
To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com
<http://onlinemetals.com/> and you can find just about all you need to
know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or
square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17
Bobefx
do not archive
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Message 13
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Hi: I actually found mine here in Yakima at a local supplier, Pacific Steel.
They had it in stock which surprised me. It was just under $1.00 a foot in
25 foot lengths including tax. I had them price some sheet stock as well and
they were not able to get anything less than .032 which is the thickest I
had them price, but they were competitive on that. Dan
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Dan,
Thanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in architectural and none of my
present suppliers or ones I have called carry it. We have also stayed away
from it per our engineers due to strength issues. That is a motion pix issue
not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of my catalogs either. Back to
the Internet. :)
In case I need 6061t6 square angle for my 701, where did you get yours? I do
not have the kit in hand yet. Some time in July.
Bobefx
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Dan <dan@hillsgun.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:46:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals
I just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle which has
a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also has
square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequate.
They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, but it
is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock. The
material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it with the
square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,
701 scratch builder
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals
To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com
<http://onlinemetals.com/> and you can find just about all you need to know
about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square
corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17
Bobefx
Message 14
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I flew from Seattle (by way of San Jose - darned work!) to attend the Factory Open
House on Saturday and got to see the 750 prototype fly as well as the first
"production" model under construction that's slated for an official unveiling
at Osh Kosh.
It's got a lot of "improvements" over the 701, but is not intended to replace the
701, but more to add a mid-size version for larger folks or those looking at
auto-conversions or certified engines.
Being a big guy (6'-4" with shoes and 240#), I found the 750 much more fun to get
in and out of. The 750 has more windows, tip forward seats, more leg room,
wider cabin, center console with 601-style control yoke and an enlarged baggage
area behind the seats.
It is generally larger but has the 701 look and feel and shares many construction
methods, but seems to be a new plane from tip to tail. It's got a bigger landing
gear and sits much taller than the 701. The production model has a very
cool rounded extrusion for the fuselage corners that really smooths out the look.
The jury struts have a new mounting method and the instrument panel has been
redesigned for better visibility on approach (it's narrower and allows you
to see past it looking forward and down. It will be the quickest building kit
yet due to the advanced CAD layout and the CNC produced parts.
Jon Croke was interviewing Caleb extensively and should have a report in an upcoming
Zenith Newsletter.
No news on the eventual availability of plans, but I'm hoping they have more to
say at the roll-out at Osh Kosh.
If any of my pictures turned out, I'll post a couple later tonight.
Chris in Seattle
--------
701 Scratch Builder
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189342#189342
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Outboard elevator hinge plate - 801 |
On my 801 hinge plate I followed Gary's advise and made it .090 with 2 rows of
rivets. I have the large tail. On the demo 801 the hole in the hinge plate is
now oval. I wanted a larger pin and non corrosive mat', so I installed a .250
bronze oilite bushing in the hinge plate and made a new hinge pin out of ss strap
and a stainless dowel pin .250. The bushing is press fit into the hinge plate,
and I have nylon washers also. You will need to fasten the fiberglass elevator
tip with screws for inspection removal. The pro's, smoother action on
the elevator, it can be replaced if it ever wears, non corroding. The cons
a lot more work and the tip needs to be removable for service and inspection.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189344#189344
Message 16
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Dan,=0A-=0AWow that is the best price I have seen in-a long time. Alumi
num is going though the roof at this time. I buy it about once a-month an
d the price goes up each-month since the first of the year. But this is L
os Angeles. We seem to pay more for everything.=0A-=0AIt sounds like Paci
fic has stuff for the aircraft industry. I called a supplier here and he to
ld me that if I wanted 6161t6 square angel I should find a supplier to the
large aircraft builders. I did, will not sell to me, I can't buy in large e
nough quantity. And they are back ordered to Boeing for the next 6 mo. Look
ing for .025 sheet and some other material. There price was about 2/3 or le
ss of the other suppliers I called.=0A-=0AIf I go to Washington I am told
I can find a scrap yard that deals in Boeing left overs and scrap. Do you
know if that is true?=0A-=0ABobefx=0A-=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- O
riginal Message ----=0AFrom: Dan <dan@hillsgun.com>=0ATo: zenith701801-list
@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:53:50 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zeni
th701801-List: Metals=0A=0A=0AHi: I actually found mine here in Yakima at a
local supplier, Pacific Steel. They had it in stock which surprised me. It
was just under $1.00 a foot in 25 foot lengths including tax. I had them p
rice some sheet stock as well and they were not able to get anything less t
han .032 which is the thickest I had them price, but they were competitive
on that. Dan=0A-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:owner-ze
nith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server
@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:17
AM=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zenith701801-List:
Metals=0A-=0ADan,=0A-=0AThanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in arch
itectural and none of my present suppliers or ones I have called carry it.
We have also stayed away from it per our engineers due to strength issues.
That is a motion pix issue not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of
my catalogs either. Back to the Internet. :)=0AIn case I need 6061t6 squar
e angle for my 701, where did you get yours? I do not have the kit in hand
yet. Some time in July.=0ABobefx=0Ado not archive=0A----- Original Message
----=0AFrom: Dan < dan@hillsgun.com >=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:46:24 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith701801-List:
Metals=0AI just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angl
e which has a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which a
lso has square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than a
dequate. They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger
, but it is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered s
tock. The material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry i
t with the square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,=0A-=0A
-701 scratch builder=0A-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFro
m:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-l
ist-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis=0ASent: Monday, June 23,
2008 7:52 AM=0ATo: zenith701801-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Zenith701801
-List: Metals=0A-=0ATo Group,=0AIf you need fast info on metals go to onl
inemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal
properties for the novice.=0AExtruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) an
d Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice th
at Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6. =0AUltimate
shear strength---- 6061T6 is 30=0A----------
-------------------------
===================
Message 17
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Architectural vs Structural webbing aside, OnlineMetals is a great source.
They are only a few miles from me, so I just call ahead and then pickup what
is needed.
DO NOT ARCHIVE!
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Bob Sturgis <bobefx@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To Group,
> If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find
> just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
> Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
> Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square
> corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
> Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
> 6063T52 is 17
>
> Bobefx
>
> do not archive
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 18
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Don't feel alone, our steel(and aluminum) prices are rocketing here as well
so I was very pleased with the price. They have been here for quite some
time, but this is the first time I have purchased from them as they only
deal in full lengths.
We have a steel supply that I normally used which was convenient and I could
purchase drops relatively cheaply, but with prices the way they are now they
raised there prices so high that it looks like it is more economical to
purchase full lengths from pacific and leave them set in my rack until I
need it. Boeing used to have a surplus store in Kent that was a candy store
for me. You could usually find lots of neat stuff whether you needed it or
not and usually at a good price. They closed it the beginning of this year
and are selling it online at auction. You used to be able to go thru a bin
of whatever (drill bits, reamers, ect) and pick out what you want and paid
for it by the pound, now you go to there auction site and bid on some
outrageous amount of an item like 200 pounds of drill bits mostly #40. The
good old days of Boeing surplus are gone. Dan
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Dan,
Wow that is the best price I have seen in a long time. Aluminum is going
though the roof at this time. I buy it about once a month and the price goes
up each month since the first of the year. But this is Los Angeles. We seem
to pay more for everything.
It sounds like Pacific has stuff for the aircraft industry. I called a
supplier here and he told me that if I wanted 6161t6 square angel I should
find a supplier to the large aircraft builders. I did, will not sell to me,
I can't buy in large enough quantity. And they are back ordered to Boeing
for the next 6 mo. Looking for .025 sheet and some other material. There
price was about 2/3 or less of the other suppliers I called.
If I go to Washington I am told I can find a scrap yard that deals in Boeing
left overs and scrap. Do you know if that is true?
Bobefx
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Dan <dan@hillsgun.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:53:50 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Hi: I actually found mine here in Yakima at a local supplier, Pacific Steel.
They had it in stock which surprised me. It was just under $1.00 a foot in
25 foot lengths including tax. I had them price some sheet stock as well and
they were not able to get anything less than .032 which is the thickest I
had them price, but they were competitive on that. Dan
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals
Dan,
Thanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in architectural and none of my
present suppliers or ones I have called carry it. We have also stayed away
from it per our engineers due to strength issues. That is a motion pix issue
not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of my catalogs either. Back to
the Internet. :)
In case I need 6061t6 square angle for my 701, where did you get yours? I do
not have the kit in hand yet. Some time in July.
Bobefx
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Dan < dan@hillsgun.com >
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:46:24 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals
I just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle which has
a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also has
square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequate.
They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, but it
is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock. The
material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it with the
square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,
701 scratch builder
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals
To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com
<http://onlinemetals.com/> and you can find just about all you need to know
about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural
Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square
corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17
Bobefx
Message 19
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| Subject: | Black Velvet Plugs and Cooling |
Don and Lucien
I have the same set-up as you have and my front cylinder heads run
much colder than the rear and front plugs have always been darker.
My cowl is the original ZAC design without baffles. I have not seen a
701/912 with baffles but have seen other designs (Catana, Pelican) using a
fibreglass shroud that sit on top of the engine.
In 2005 I attended an Oshkosh forum on Cooling System Design that was
excellent. I invited the presenter to look at my
a/c and her first comment as we approached was: "Your air intake is
much too large". I can't remember this person's name but I was very
impressed with her lecture and comments.
I would like to correct the cooling imbalance to my cylinders but I'm
concerned that with
the engine broken-in with those conditions, changes may cause a bigger
problem? The
engine shows no changes after 13 years, it still runs smooth and strong and
the compression
remains the same since the first annual (15 lbs lower in the front
cylinders). I assume that the darker front plugs are caused by the colder
temperatures?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:11 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Dry Black velvet Plugs
> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
>
> I came up with this post in a search on black plugs, and I would like to
> re-invigorate the subject with a question.
>
Message 20
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Now down to the planing for the fuel lines on a kit CH 701 with 912 ULS 100
hp Rotax. The plans show the fuel line routed down the left side of the
cockpit and I assume thru the fire wall on the left side. However, from all
the pics I've seen of the demonstrator the fuel line doesn' show at the left
fire wall. The motor has the fuel hose on the right side. What's the best
way to route the line, I've seen pics of a Spruce type gascolator / filter
assy on the right fire wall in the engine compartment on one project, or
does one just use the gascolator supplied by ZAC and then put a filter in
the line. Also what's the best way to hook up the different "types" of gas
lines - one supplied by ZAC and the one on the engine. All suggestions
appreciated. You could contact me direct by email if you like.
Thanks Phil
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel routing |
Philip,
You will find some pics of my install. My battery is behind the right seat, gascolators
for main and aux tanks behind left.
My fuel line goes up the left side of cabin then crosses to right side behind rudder
pedals. 1/4 inch into gascolators and then
5/16 the rest of the way into rotax fuel pump which has a 5/16 nipple.
http://www.701builder.com/fuelsystem.htm
Brian Unruh
Long Island, NY
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel routing |
I ran my fuel line down the right side of the fuse. Have the Zenith
gascolator behind the right seat and the shutoff just in front of the right
seat near the outside of the fuse. Can reach it very easily from the left
seat. My fuel pump line is also on the right side of the Jabiur 2200.
George
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ruruny@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:13 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Fuel routing
Philip,
You will find some pics of my install. My battery is behind the right seat,
gascolators for main and aux tanks behind left.
My fuel line goes up the left side of cabin then crosses to right side
behind rudder pedals. 1/4 inch into gascolators and then
5/16 the rest of the way into rotax fuel pump which has a 5/16 nipple.
http://www.701builder.com/fuelsystem.htm
Brian Unruh
Long Island, NY
_____
Get the Moviefone Toolbar
<http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011> .
Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Project Needs Engine |
Kevin,
I will have a 4340 billet crankshaft available in July for the Corvair.
In August I will have Forged 4340 crankshafts available for the Corvair.
By the end of this summer I will have the lightest & the strongest Corvair available.
I am betting money that it will weigh less than a Jabiru 3300 and have
more power. Not that a 701 needs more power. But I will fly this engine in my
701.
If you have the chance; come out to the Arlington Air Venture and take a look at what we have going on. If you are interested you can check out my website :www.magnificentmachine.com
It doesn't have to be heavy,
Brady
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189514#189514
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