Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:15 AM - Re: Elevator Authority (Ken Arnold)
2. 04:03 AM - Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 07/26/08 (Jeffrey A Beachy)
3. 04:41 AM - Re: Elevator Authority (Graeme Bell)
4. 06:07 AM - Chat Room Reminder For "Digesters" (George Race)
5. 06:58 AM - The CH 750 has arrived!!! (Joshua)
6. 08:20 AM - Re: The CH 750 has arrived!!! (Roy Szarafinski)
7. 09:31 AM - Re: Elevator Authority (George Race)
8. 09:34 AM - Re: The CH 750 has arrived!!! (John Marzulli)
9. 10:20 AM - Elevator Authority with loss of power on Landing (Paddy O'Malley)
10. 11:04 AM - Re: Elevator Authority (NYTerminat@aol.com)
11. 11:16 AM - Re: Elevator Authority (NYTerminat@aol.com)
12. 11:31 AM - Re: Elevator Authority with loss of power on Landing (NYTerminat@aol.com)
13. 12:11 PM - Re: Elevator Authority (Dan)
14. 01:13 PM - Re: Elevator Authority (NYTerminat@aol.com)
15. 01:47 PM - Re: Elevator Authority (raymondj)
16. 03:19 PM - Re: Elevator Authority (Ken Arnold)
17. 05:14 PM - Re: Elevator Authority with loss of power on Landing (rbjjr)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
Bob,
Very clear instructions were included. Took about an hour with my CFI
and I working together. 2 people make job easier.
I can probably dig up the instructions if you want.
Ken
N701LK/912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
In a message dated 7/26/2008 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
arno7452@bellsouth.net writes:
<arno7452@bellsouth.net>
I installed just VGs on the elevator. BIG difference. Elevator
authority
remained even at idle when landings. I used STOLSpeed. Cost $65
including
shipping.
Ken
N701LK
Pikeville, NC
do not archive
Ken,
Did you have to experiment with the locations or did they give
instructions for location?
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/912S/160hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Phillips" <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
To: <zenith701801-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
<ttp44@rkymtn.net>
>
> Dan
>
> One source is CCI
>
> http://www.vortexgenerator.net/
>
> Terry
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 07/26/08 |
I also installed the STOLSpeed VG's on my 701 elevator. I had them
installed from day one so I cannot give a before and after report, but I
have no issues with elevator authority on landings, unlike the experience
of many other 701 pilots.
Jeff Beachy
N701N
Plain City, OH
I installed just VGs on the elevator. BIG difference. Elevator
authority
remained even at idle when landings. I used STOLSpeed. Cost $65
including
shipping.
Ken
N701LK
Pikeville, NC
do not archive
____________________________________________________________
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
I always wonder why people fly th 701 like a cessna.
I fly from a short strip i am usually at 500ft when on down wind I do a
banking decending turn at 100 meters past strip.
set upglide approach no flaps engine idle keep air speed 55-60 knots
(over trees) until just about on strip pull back gently airspeed bleds
off quickly land 40-35 knots.
If you are doing a glide approach a 35-40 knots are on the stall
slightly too much back stick the aircraft decends rapidly and decent
will not be arrested with elevator alone you will need some power.
VG are an addon to try and increase the speed at which the stall
occures.
The cure indicates the problem the aircraft is stalling (flying to slow
for the conditions0
If you inted operating from a short strip have plenty of practice at
your nearest airport and get you short landings right.
don't persist on your short strip and bend your aircraft or worse you
wouldn't be the first.
GraemeCNS
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
Dan,
I fly from my own strip also If you are going to come in flat you need
to carry some extra power as the speed bleeds off very fast as you now
know. This plane does not float unless you are carrying too much extra
power. I do not have VG's and don't have a problem as long as I carry
the RPM's which give you air across your elevator. I suggest that you
get used to flying at different angles of attack. It took me a while to
get used to the angle of the 701 in landing configuration compared to
the Pipers that I used to fly. This plane is great at all different
landings from full flap short field to no flap 90 MPH landings at busy
airports. For short fields I usually carry 3400- 3600 RPM with full
flaps. I would caution you that you maintain safe width of your field so
that you don't catch a wingtip on the corn.
I think we have all bounce it in a time or two.
Safe flying
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/912S/160hrs
In a message dated 7/26/2008 1:30:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dwilde@clearwire.net writes:
I fly from a very narrow 900 foot grass strip between rows of corn
that
are now 8 feet tall. This morning was my first takeoff from my home
field with my 701. It was a non-event. However after flying for an
hour I came home to make my second landing at home. I lined up the
runway, dropped the throttle to idle and skimmed over the neighbors
almond trees while maintaining a low angle of attack. With the
ground
rapidly approaching I started pulling back on the stick to flair for
landing but nothing seemed to happen. I finally landed hard (i.e.
bounced) with the stick all the way back and had to fight to
maintain
control and keep out of the corn at the side of the runway. This
landing was without flaps. It was a hard landing but nothing was
bent
or broken.
I had previously read about this happening to others on this list
but
wondered how it could happen since I found the 701 so easy to land.
Well lesson learned. I will now keep a little extra speed and
higher
throttle setting to insure flair authority. Who sells the VG 's for
the
elevator?
Dan ====================
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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
7/25/2008 4:27 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Chat Room Reminder For "Digesters" |
Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM
Eastern Time.
<http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/> http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/
George
CH-701 - N73EX
Flight Ready
Do Not Archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | The CH 750 has arrived!!! |
Well here it is. I suppose everyone knew about this?
Its certainly not obvious on the Zenair website. Im still not sure how I found
it.
Ive been waiting all year for this and Im glad I did. Im more than happy to scrap
my 701 form blocks and start over.
heres the link.
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch750/750-price.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195183#195183
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: The CH 750 has arrived!!! |
Don't scrap them just yet! I would bet money that the 750 has more in common with
the 701 than the 801, wings especially. So when are you going to order your
plans?
Roy
----- Original Message ----
From: Joshua <joshua@gurleyauctions.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 9:58:18 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: The CH 750 has arrived!!!
Well here it is. I suppose everyone knew about this?
Its certainly not obvious on the Zenair website. Im still not sure how I found
it.
Ive been waiting all year for this and Im glad I did. Im more than happy to scrap
my 701 form blocks and start over.
heres the link.
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch750/750-price.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195183#195183
Message 7
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| Subject: | Elevator Authority |
Hi Bob:
You say you carry 3400-3600 RPM with full flaps.
Am I correct in assuming that you are using a Rotax with a PSRU?
If so would that make the prop RPM about 1700-1800? And the airspeed across
the threshold is?
Thanks,
George
N73EX
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
NYTerminat@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
Dan,
I fly from my own strip also If you are going to come in flat you need to
carry some extra power as the speed bleeds off very fast as you now know.
This plane does not float unless you are carrying too much extra power. I do
not have VG's and don't have a problem as long as I carry the RPM's which
give you air across your elevator. I suggest that you get used to flying at
different angles of attack. It took me a while to get used to the angle of
the 701 in landing configuration compared to the Pipers that I used to fly.
This plane is great at all different landings from full flap short field to
no flap 90 MPH landings at busy airports. For short fields I usually carry
3400- 3600 RPM with full flaps. I would caution you that you maintain safe
width of your field so that you don't catch a wingtip on the corn.
I think we have all bounce it in a time or two.
Safe flying
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/912S/160hrs
In a message dated 7/26/2008 1:30:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dwilde@clearwire.net writes:
I fly from a very narrow 900 foot grass strip between rows of corn that
are now 8 feet tall. This morning was my first takeoff from my home
field with my 701. It was a non-event. However after flying for an
hour I came home to make my second landing at home. I lined up the
runway, dropped the throttle to idle and skimmed over the neighbors
almond trees while maintaining a low angle of attack. With the ground
rapidly approaching I started pulling back on the stick to flair for
landing but nothing seemed to happen. I finally landed hard (i.e.
bounced) with the stick all the way back and had to fight to maintain
control and keep out of the corn at the side of the runway. This
landing was without flaps. It was a hard landing but nothing was bent
or broken.
I had previously read about this happening to others on this list but
wondered how it could happen since I found the 701 so easy to land.
Well lesson learned. I will now keep a little extra speed and higher
throttle setting to insure flair authority. Who sells the VG 's for the
elevator?
Dan ====================
_____
Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy
Football today
<http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020> .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The CH 750 has arrived!!! |
Looks pretty sweet. The biggest gains here are 1) More shoulder room 2) More
engine choices.
Too bad I'm almost done with my airframe... although there is always the
next project. ;-)
DO NOT ARCHIVE!
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:19 AM, Roy Szarafinski <rvickski@yahoo.com> wrote:
> rvickski@yahoo.com>
>
> Don't scrap them just yet! I would bet money that the 750 has more in
> common with the 701 than the 801, wings especially. So when are you going to
> order your plans?
>
> Roy
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Joshua <joshua@gurleyauctions.com>
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 9:58:18 AM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: The CH 750 has arrived!!!
>
> joshua@gurleyauctions.com>
>
> Well here it is. I suppose everyone knew about this?
> Its certainly not obvious on the Zenair website. Im still not sure how I
> found it.
> Ive been waiting all year for this and Im glad I did. Im more than happy to
> scrap my 701 form blocks and start over.
> heres the link.
>
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/stolch750/750-price.html
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195183#195183
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Elevator Authority with loss of power on Landing |
CH-701 builders,
Given the assertion that power is required to flare on landing, what
is the prescription for landing without power, say a loss of engine
in an actual emergency??
Looking at the NTSB for ch-701 the hard nose landing with a
conventional idle power setting is all to common. Nobody has yet
died, but most likely only because of the low speed.
Simple things like glide-speed with no power, are real hard to find,
and vertical drop in that configuration clean&dirty zenair remains
silent on these issues. I know there is a guy in New Zealand that has
wrote a little, but their seems to be no US engineering detail on
this critical issue. I love the STOL char with power on the CH-701,
but the NO-POWER config is very troublesome.
I guess you can land in a tree as some of done with power loss, or go
nose over when you can't flare, but I find these two options a
terrible waste of 1-3 years of kit building.
I would really like a confirm from the experts on how to maintain
'elevator authority' with NO POWER.
Not to pick on ZEN, Van's is no better with their collapsing nose
gear on soft field landings.
I would really like to see more information on this subject.
Paddy O'Malley
flicka401@gmail.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
Ken,
If you wouldn't mind, when you get a chance I would like to see it.
Thanks
Bob
In a message dated 7/27/2008 5:16:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
arno7452@bellsouth.net writes:
Bob,
Very clear instructions were included. Took about an hour with my CFI and I
working together. 2 people make job easier.
I can probably dig up the instructions if you want.
Ken
N701LK/912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: _NYTerminat@aol.com_ (mailto:NYTerminat@aol.com)
(mailto:zenith701801-list@matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
In a message dated 7/26/2008 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_arno7452@bellsouth.net_ (mailto:arno7452@bellsouth.net) writes:
<_arno7452@bellsouth.net_ (mailto:arno7452@bellsouth.net) >
I installed just VGs on the elevator. BIG difference. Elevator authority
remained even at idle when landings. I used STOLSpeed. Cost $65 including
shipping.
Ken
N701LK
Pikeville, NC
do not archive
Ken,
Did you have to experiment with the locations or did they give instructions
for location?
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/912S/160hrs
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
George,
Yes Rotax 912S, Prop RPM would be about 1400 - 1500. Airspeed is about 40mph.
Bob
In a message dated 7/27/2008 12:31:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mykitairplane@mrrace.com writes:
Hi Bob:
You say you carry 3400-3600 RPM with full flaps.
Am I correct in assuming that you are using a Rotax with a PSRU?
If so would that make the prop RPM about 1700-1800? And the airspeed across
the threshold is?
Thanks,
George
N73EX
____________________________________
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
Dan,
I fly from my own strip also If you are going to come in flat you need to
carry some extra power as the speed bleeds off very fast as you now know. This
plane does not float unless you are carrying too much extra power. I do not
have VG's and don't have a problem as long as I carry the RPM's which give you
air across your elevator. I suggest that you get used to flying at different
angles of attack. It took me a while to get used to the angle of the 701 in
landing configuration compared to the Pipers that I used to fly. This plane
is great at all different landings from full flap short field to no flap 90
MPH landings at busy airports. For short fields I usually carry 3400- 3600 RPM
with full flaps. I would caution you that you maintain safe width of your
field so that you don't catch a wingtip on the corn.
I think we have all bounce it in a time or two.
Safe flying
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/912S/160hrs
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority with loss of power on Landing |
Paddy,
I have done engine out landings in my 701. No surprises, keep up some extra
airspeed about 60-65 MPH and don't flare high as the airspeed and lift bleed
off fast. It is much like a helicopter approach in an autorotation flare at
the last minute or should I say seconds. I like to describe it as when your
sphincter really puckers it is time to pull back on the stick. When I drop in
a short field over a high obstacle I will occasionally make this power off
approach.
My best glide with the engine off at about 54 MPH, try it ,as it is a non
event. I am not sure how many FPM I am dropping but wind direction sure does
make a difference.
I do like the conversations about the VG's on the elevator and will order
them and try them out. But I will again say there is no problem in the
original design as is.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 7/27/2008 1:21:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
flicka401@gmail.com writes:
CH-701 builders,
Given the assertion that power is required to flare on landing, what is the
prescription for landing without power, say a loss of engine in an actual
emergency??
Looking at the NTSB for ch-701 the hard nose landing with a conventional
idle power setting is all to common. Nobody has yet died, but most likely only
because of the low speed.
Simple things like glide-speed with no power, are real hard to find, and
vertical drop in that configuration clean&dirty zenair remains silent on these
issues. I know there is a guy in New Zealand that has wrote a little, but
their seems to be no US engineering detail on this critical issue. I love the
STOL char with power on the CH-701, but the NO-POWER config is very troublesome.
I guess you can land in a tree as some of done with power loss, or go nose
over when you can't flare, but I find these two options a terrible waste of
1-3 years of kit building.
I would really like a confirm from the experts on how to maintain 'elevator
authority' with NO POWER.
Not to pick on ZEN, Van's is no better with their collapsing nose gear on
soft field landings.
I would really like to see more information on this subject.
Paddy O'Malley
_flicka401@gmail.com_ (mailto:flicka401@gmail.com)
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
> Dan,
> I fly from my own strip also If you are going to come in flat you need
> to carry some extra power as the speed bleeds off very fast as you now
> know. This plane does not float unless you are carrying too much extra
> power. I do not have VG's and don't have a problem as long as I carry
> the RPM's which give you air across your elevator. I suggest that you
> get used to flying at different angles of attack. It took me a while
> to get used to the angle of the 701 in landing configuration compared
> to the Pipers that I used to fly. This plane is great at all different
> landings from full flap short field to no flap 90 MPH landings at busy
> airports. For short fields I usually carry 3400- 3600 RPM with full
> flaps. I would caution you that you maintain safe width of your field
> so that you don't catch a wingtip on the corn.
>
> I think we have all bounce it in a time or two.
>
> Safe flying
> Bob Spudis
> N701ZX/912S/160hrs
>
>
>
>
Bob and others: I had no problem today on landing. I just carried a
few extra rpms.
I initially was worried about landing too long on my runway because the
50' trees at the far end kind of limit the go around possibilities. Now
that I have a few landings I see this is not likely to be an issue. I
could easily be stopped by 300 feet from the end of the runway over 20'
almond trees and I am not using flaps. I still have 600' to use.
Dan Wilde
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
Dan,
Sounds great, practice will get you on spot every time. Have lots of fun
flying.
Bob Spudis
do not archive
In a message dated 7/27/2008 3:12:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dwilde@clearwire.net writes:
Bob and others: I had no problem today on landing. I just carried a
few extra rpms.
I initially was worried about landing too long on my runway because the
50' trees at the far end kind of limit the go around possibilities. Now
that I have a few landings I see this is not likely to be an issue. I
could easily be stopped by 300 feet from the end of the runway over 20'
almond trees and I am not using flaps. I still have 600' to use.
Dan Wilde
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
Greetings Ken,
I would like to see those instructions, too.
Thanks,
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Arnold" <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
Bob,
Very clear instructions were included. Took about an hour with my CFI and I
working together. 2 people make job easier.
I can probably dig up the instructions if you want.
Ken
N701LK/912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
In a message dated 7/26/2008 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
arno7452@bellsouth.net writes:
<arno7452@bellsouth.net>
I installed just VGs on the elevator. BIG difference. Elevator
authority
remained even at idle when landings. I used STOLSpeed. Cost $65
including
shipping.
Ken
N701LK
Pikeville, NC
do not archive
Ken,
Did you have to experiment with the locations or did they give
instructions for location?
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/912S/160hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Phillips" <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
To: <zenith701801-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
<ttp44@rkymtn.net>
>
> Dan
>
> One source is CCI
>
> http://www.vortexgenerator.net/
>
> Terry
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1:31 PM
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority |
OK, will send them out.
May take a little to find them.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "raymondj" <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
> <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
>
> Greetings Ken,
>
> I would like to see those instructions, too.
>
> Thanks,
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
>
> "Hope for the best,
> but prepare for the worst."
>
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Arnold" <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
> To: <zenith701801-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 4:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
>
>
> Bob,
> Very clear instructions were included. Took about an hour with my CFI and
> I working together. 2 people make job easier.
>
> I can probably dig up the instructions if you want.
> Ken
> N701LK/912ULS
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: NYTerminat@aol.com
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
>
>
> In a message dated 7/26/2008 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> arno7452@bellsouth.net writes:
> <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
>
> I installed just VGs on the elevator. BIG difference. Elevator
> authority
> remained even at idle when landings. I used STOLSpeed. Cost $65
> including
> shipping.
> Ken
> N701LK
> Pikeville, NC
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ken,
> Did you have to experiment with the locations or did they give
> instructions for location?
> Bob Spudis
> N701ZX/912S/160hrs
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Terry Phillips" <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
> To: <zenith701801-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 1:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Elevator Authority
>
>
> <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > One source is CCI
> >
> > http://www.vortexgenerator.net/
> >
> > Terry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy
> Football today.
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 1:31 PM
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Authority with loss of power on Landing |
All:
There are a couple of videos on YouTube that demonstrate engine out approaches
and landings in the 701. These show it is possible and while they seem to come
down fast they land fine.
Search for CH701 and you will find them
Burke Johnson
CH701
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195290#195290
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