Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:38 AM - Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? (flicka750)
2. 07:53 AM - Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? (flicka750)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? (flicka750)
4. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? (Donald Koehnlein)
5. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different (James Sagerser)
6. 04:15 PM - Re: Ch-750 versus Ch-701 (flicka750)
7. 04:44 PM - Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? (flicka750)
8. 07:02 PM - 701 & the Jab3300 (James Sagerser)
9. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? (Mark Sherman)
10. 07:17 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9p=2E_=3A_Zenith701801-List=3A_701_=26_the_Jab3300? (Jean-Paul Roy)
11. 08:14 PM - Re: 701 & the Jab3300 (Craig Payne)
12. 08:23 PM - Re: 701 & the Jab3300 (James Sagerser)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? |
The ZenUSA doesn't even say JAB-3300 is a 'choice', the ZenCAN says JAB is a choice.
The USA site appears to suggest that JAB is "Engine non grata'.
A 'choice' infers that it works.
I have seen the 'homebuilt alt' engine dvd's so what. I change the subject and
not just answer the question?
1.) Why is does one site mention the Jab3300 and the other not?
2.) Is the ZenCan 701(QB) different or NOT? I don't think it is, thus if its the
same plane, and if the 'choice' in Canada leads to a safe airplane, then why
would that not be true in the USA?
Regarding the 'homebuilt alt' dvd's, they're all marketing & PR sales video-lit
provided by each manufacturer. Hardly unbiased. I come here to hear from those
at the end of the food chain to see how they work in the field. I don't think
that vendors who are at the beginning of the food chain are credible. I have
never say the guys at 'homebuilt dvd' say anything bad about anything, the love
everyone; why not, everyone promote's their dvd's.
The entire homebuilt kit plane biz is about 'xxx airforce' marketing, where everyone
promotes all the products. The problem is getting credible non-biased end
user information.
The current EAA mag I get monthly talks about building a plane for less than $20k,
yet the average is now around $60k. Reading the site at SONEX tells me they
really know whats going on. Homebuilt planes aren't for little guys in shop
anymore its a big buck game now where people are now spending on average more
for a 'kit plane' than if they just bought a new plane.
I'm glad that Matronics has this board, I'm glad there is at least one board in
the EAA homebuilt world that isn't censored and controlled by vendors. We really
need to have solid answers to questions, and not just base decision on emotions
and feelings.
[quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific
Daylight Time, flicka401@gmail.com writes:
> Anybody have any ideas? I know that two different brothers are running two
different company's, and
The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to allow for easy installation
of your choice of engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru 3300, Continental O-200
and more.
"Your choice of engine" is not a recommendation.
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047).
>
[quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific
Daylight Time, flicka750 writes:
> Anybody have any ideas? I know that two different brothers are running two
different company's, and
The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to allow for easy installation
of your choice of engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru 3300, Continental O-200
and more.
"Your choice of engine" is not a recommendation.
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal [b]here (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047).
> [b]
--------
flicka750(AT)gmail
"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18" Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0077#200077
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? |
The aeroV is clearly a VW engine, and they have a record of cooling problems. That
said the O-200 type engine is also air-cooled, and certainly we have all spent
hours in an idling C150/152 and the engine didn't over-heat. What I'm saying
is there are ways to cool air-cooled engines.
The Jabiru is a completely redesigned engine with cooling fins, the engine has
a lot of aluminum. I simply don't see how the areoV or std VW engine can be compared
to a JAB? The JAB is a completely different engine.
What matters here is what people who fly the planes are seeing in the field. There
are people in 701's with JAB3300, what are they seeing? Certainly proper openings,
cooling ducts, oil-coolers, all those variables are what count.
I have burnt up a lot of VW engines in my day, thus I can say I wouldn't want to
fly around in a VW engine, but these new engines like the JAB really have nothing
to do with the VW. I'm sure given that the VW design is 50+ years old, and
is public domain, that the reason everyone uses that as a basic design is no
royalty.
My biggest concern with the JAB is parts, as its not a VW, and not stock after-market.
So this gets you back to the O-200 issue, where you can find lots of after-market
parts, and use an engine that is well known for the air.
With regards to the ROTAX yeh great, BUT, and here is the big BUT, the dollar is
going to continue to erode, and all ROTAX parts must be bought from rotax, even
brass washers for the oil-drain cost an arm & leg. Top End overhauls are going
to kill you, and a complete engine rebuild. All the parts on the ROTAX are
complicated. Yeh, great engine. Just hope that all its problems get caught while
your in warranty.
Soon the ROTAX will be $40k, and it will be like $500 for minor parts, ROTAX has
strong lawyers in the USA. I don't see any inexpensive after-market OEM parts
coming down the line, do any of you?
For 'rich people' who buy RV's its not a problem, the new RV-12 is going to use
the 912S, and will cost $80k to build, you even have to pay for each pop-rivet.
For 'poor people' I don't think the ROTAX is going to be a choice, unless you
plan on feeding your rotax and starving your family.
av8or(at)cox.net wrote:
> Just out of curiosity has anyone installed or considered installing an
> AeroVee VW 80hp? It sounds like it would have the same problems as the
> J2200, but at 1/2 the cost. :)
>
> John
>
>
> > It all comes back to torque. The Jabiru is a direct drive engine and
> > therefore limited in prop length. A shorter prop works well on a higher
> > speed 601/650. If you want to hop out of the hole quickly as in "STOL",
> > the longer props compatible with the 912 is going to give more
> > performance. If price is a concern, I think the Jab 3300 is around the
> > same price as the 912 100hp.
> >
> > Now the 80hp Jabiru is a bit cheaper that either of the 912 Rotaxes but
> > they have lost quite a bit of their price advantage over the last few
> > years. Personally, I would not have even considered the Jabiru 80hp as a
> > STOL engine but I have to admit the pictures of George Race's first flight
> > that he just posted shows that it is capable of getting off the ground
> > very quickly. I now have significanly more respect for this installation.
> >
> >
> > Do not archive
> >
> >
>
--------
flicka750(AT)gmail
"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18" Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0080#200080
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? |
The jab 2200 is about $13k, the 3300 is about $15k,
The rotax 912 80 is about $18k, the rotax 912s 100 is now over $20k,
The jab 3300 is 6 cylinder, which distributes the heat of each cylinder on average.
An interesting question, are the Australians buying tons of Rotaxes? Or are they
buying Jab's?
My biggest concern with the Jab is parts, how do you get parts in the middle of
no-where, and will their proprietary engine be around in 5-10 years?
dougsnash wrote:
> Flicka, first, if you are going to regularly post here would you please do us
the courtesy of signing with at least a first name so we can call you something
real.
>
> Secondly, are you refering to the Zenair site or the CAN-ZAC website when you
refer to Zenith Canada? I don't recall ever seeing an endorsment of the Jabiru
as a suggested engine on any of the Zenith websites that I have ever visited.
I have heard them wholehartedly endorsed for use on the 601/650 but never
on the 701. Admittedly though, I have not really dug into the Zenair website
too deeply so I could easily be wrong about that. Jabiru USA however, endorses
the 3300 on the 701 because they want to sell us 701 builders the more expensive
engine.
>
> It all comes back to torque. The Jabiru is a direct drive engine and therefore
limited in prop length. A shorter prop works well on a higher speed 601/650.
If you want to hop out of the hole quickly as in "STOL", the longer props
compatible with the 912 is going to give more performance. If price is a concern,
I think the Jab 3300 is around the same price as the 912 100hp.
>
> Now the 80hp Jabiru is a bit cheaper that either of the 912 Rotaxes but they
have lost quite a bit of their price advantage over the last few years. Personally,
I would not have even considered the Jabiru 80hp as a STOL engine but I
have to admit the pictures of George Race's first flight that he just posted
shows that it is capable of getting off the ground very quickly. I now have significanly
more respect for this installation.
>
> What it all comes down to is choice. Lets face it, they are all good engines
when they run right and all pieces of crap when they don't. if you are looking
for a good comparison of the alternatives to Rotax power, Jon Croke (homebuilthelp.com)
sells a great DVD that shows several of the competitor products.
It is well worth the price of admission.
>
> Doug MacDonald
> CH-701 Scratch Builder
> NW Ontario, Canada
>
> Do not archive
>
> --- On Fri, 8/22/08, flicka750 wrote:
>
>
> > From: flicka750
> > Subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?
> > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 11:04 AM
> >
> > "flicka750"
> >
> > I have noticed that the USA zenair site, makes no explicit
> > approval of the the JAB3300.
> >
> > Yet, on the CAN-ZEN site, they explicitly say that the
> > JAB3300 is a suggested engine for the 701.
> >
> > Anybody have any ideas? I know that two different brothers
> > are running two different companys, and certainly Canadians
> > are comfy with the K-ROO engine.
> >
> > It really seems that the USA zen site is steering people
> > towards Rotax for the 701, but JAB in Canada.
> >
> > Is the ZEN-CAN QB 701 a little stronger up front for the
> > slightly higher HP? I don't really feel that the JAB3300
> > is that powerful, you have to be running at 3300rpm to get
> > 120HP, the 2900 @ 100HP is more realistic.
> >
> > My question is that the USA vs CAN ZEN sites seem to be
> > talking about two different 701's. Anybody know the
> > straight story??
> >
> > I'm seeing MORE&MORE JAB3300's on 701's, it
> > seems to be the best bang for the buck.
> >
> > At this point I'm assuming that both 701's are the
> > same (us&can), I know Chris Heintz speaks highly of the
> > JAB from his oshkosh talks, so you know its got his
> > seal-of-approval.
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
flicka750(AT)gmail
"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18" Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0082#200082
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan |
different?
I spoke to a builder in AZ that has built 2 701's one
with the Jab 3300 w/ pegstol wings and one with the
Rotax 912. His advise to me in his retrospect that
there wasn't that much extra benefit cost, maintenance
and flying characteristics with the Jab 3300. He
recommended the Rotax 912.
I also spoke to a Rotax mechanic in Tucson who fly's
behind a 912 in a Flight Design CT. His experience on
the 912 is that they are very reliable and have little
maintenace as long as you change the plugs and oil at
regular intervals. I'm from Missouri so he could be a
little bias but he does fly behind a 912.
Don Koehnlein
Prospective builder
701/750
--- flicka750 <flicka750@gmail.com> wrote:
> <flicka750@gmail.com>
>
> The ZenUSA doesn't even say JAB-3300 is a 'choice',
> the ZenCAN says JAB is a choice. The USA site
> appears to suggest that JAB is "Engine non grata'.
>
> A 'choice' infers that it works.
>
> I have seen the 'homebuilt alt' engine dvd's so
> what. I change the subject and not just answer the
> question?
>
> 1.) Why is does one site mention the Jab3300 and the
> other not?
>
> 2.) Is the ZenCan 701(QB) different or NOT? I don't
> think it is, thus if its the same plane, and if the
> 'choice' in Canada leads to a safe airplane, then
> why would that not be true in the USA?
>
> Regarding the 'homebuilt alt' dvd's, they're all
> marketing & PR sales video-lit provided by each
> manufacturer. Hardly unbiased. I come here to hear
> from those at the end of the food chain to see how
> they work in the field. I don't think that vendors
> who are at the beginning of the food chain are
> credible. I have never say the guys at 'homebuilt
> dvd' say anything bad about anything, the love
> everyone; why not, everyone promote's their dvd's.
>
> The entire homebuilt kit plane biz is about 'xxx
> airforce' marketing, where everyone promotes all the
> products. The problem is getting credible non-biased
> end user information.
>
> The current EAA mag I get monthly talks about
> building a plane for less than $20k, yet the average
> is now around $60k. Reading the site at SONEX tells
> me they really know whats going on. Homebuilt planes
> aren't for little guys in shop anymore its a big
> buck game now where people are now spending on
> average more for a 'kit plane' than if they just
> bought a new plane.
>
> I'm glad that Matronics has this board, I'm glad
> there is at least one board in the EAA homebuilt
> world that isn't censored and controlled by vendors.
> We really need to have solid answers to questions,
> and not just base decision on emotions and feelings.
>
> [quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated
> 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> flicka401@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Anybody have any ideas? I know that two
> different brothers are running two different
> company's, and
>
>
> The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to
> allow for easy installation of your choice of
> engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru 3300,
> Continental O-200 and more.
>
> "Your choice of engine" is not a recommendation.
>
> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
> your travel deal here
>
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047).
>
> >
>
>
> [quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated
> 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> flicka750 writes:
>
> > Anybody have any ideas? I know that two
> different brothers are running two different
> company's, and
>
>
> The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to
> allow for easy installation of your choice of
> engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru 3300,
> Continental O-200 and more.
>
> "Your choice of engine" is not a recommendation.
>
>
>
> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
> your travel deal [b]here
>
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047).
>
> > [b]
>
>
> --------
> flicka750(AT)gmail
> "Common sense is the accumulated prejudices
> before the age of 18" Einstein
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0077#200077
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan |
different
This might be a good time to jump in here as there seems to be a lot of
discussion as to whether the Jabiru 3300 is an adequate engine for the 701.
I have the first or close to the first 701 with a Jabiru 3300. It was the
prototype plane used by Pete at JabiruUSA to fit a firewall forward package
using the 701. A proven 601 cowling was modified for the purpose and more
recently was modified again to address cooling issues. Although the
original cowling worked well at temperatures at 75 degrees or less, cooling
issues, specifically CHT's, were too high while climbing for any length of
time. I finally modified the cowling and the cooling ducts to allow 40%
more inlet air and opened the bottom of the cowling to allow the correct
differential pressure. The modification worked wonderfully. I no longer
have any cooling issues although I haven't flown "Buzz" in temps greater
than 95 degrees. I believe Pete at JabiruUSA has since modified his
firewall forward package to change his cowling and inlet ducts to
approximate my installation. Should be great.
I tried several different propellers (thanks to the helpful staff at JabUSA)
and have found the correct combination for me. In this process, Pete sent
me a 68" prop which I loved but it was tested with the original cowling and
the temps were even slightly higher due to flatness of the blades close the
inlet openings. Would be fun to try it now with the improved cowling but am
very satisfied with my 64" prop.
The performance has been very acceptable, however it's hard to judge the
difference in a Rotax powered 701 as my aircraft has been modified with
PegaStol wings (retractable slats), extended gear, etc., making it slightly
heavy although the wing installation increased my gross weight to 1,200lbs.
It does get off very quickly and climbs with two people at about 1,000' per
minute. Works for me.
I really like the Jab engine. I had a 701 with a Jab 2200 and knew the next
project would be another Jab. They start smoothly and easily, and most of
all, hardly any vibration in cruise. I cruise at about 85 with less than 4
gallons per/hour at about 2500rpm but can push it up to 100 easily if I want
to pay for the gas. With the new hydraulic lifters, there is very little
maintenance, single carb (which is a big plus), and easy to do maintenance
if needed.
I have about 65 hours on Buzz so far. I removed the wings and stored it in
my garage while I went to Alaska and Colorado for the summer. I plan to put
the wings back on shortly and hopefully, fly it to the Copperstate
Fly-in in Arizona the first part of October.
Hope this answers a few of the questions. For those of you interested, I
have a few pictures posted at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22918119@N08/
On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Donald Koehnlein <mustangg40@yahoo.com>wrote:
> mustangg40@yahoo.com>
>
> I spoke to a builder in AZ that has built 2 701's one
> with the Jab 3300 w/ pegstol wings and one with the
> Rotax 912. His advise to me in his retrospect that
> there wasn't that much extra benefit cost, maintenance
> and flying characteristics with the Jab 3300. He
> recommended the Rotax 912.
>
> I also spoke to a Rotax mechanic in Tucson who fly's
> behind a 912 in a Flight Design CT. His experience on
> the 912 is that they are very reliable and have little
> maintenace as long as you change the plugs and oil at
> regular intervals. I'm from Missouri so he could be a
> little bias but he does fly behind a 912.
>
> Don Koehnlein
> Prospective builder
> 701/750
>
>
> --- flicka750 <flicka750@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > <flicka750@gmail.com>
> >
> > The ZenUSA doesn't even say JAB-3300 is a 'choice',
> > the ZenCAN says JAB is a choice. The USA site
> > appears to suggest that JAB is "Engine non grata'.
> >
> > A 'choice' infers that it works.
> >
> > I have seen the 'homebuilt alt' engine dvd's so
> > what. I change the subject and not just answer the
> > question?
> >
> > 1.) Why is does one site mention the Jab3300 and the
> > other not?
> >
> > 2.) Is the ZenCan 701(QB) different or NOT? I don't
> > think it is, thus if its the same plane, and if the
> > 'choice' in Canada leads to a safe airplane, then
> > why would that not be true in the USA?
> >
> > Regarding the 'homebuilt alt' dvd's, they're all
> > marketing & PR sales video-lit provided by each
> > manufacturer. Hardly unbiased. I come here to hear
> > from those at the end of the food chain to see how
> > they work in the field. I don't think that vendors
> > who are at the beginning of the food chain are
> > credible. I have never say the guys at 'homebuilt
> > dvd' say anything bad about anything, the love
> > everyone; why not, everyone promote's their dvd's.
> >
> > The entire homebuilt kit plane biz is about 'xxx
> > airforce' marketing, where everyone promotes all the
> > products. The problem is getting credible non-biased
> > end user information.
> >
> > The current EAA mag I get monthly talks about
> > building a plane for less than $20k, yet the average
> > is now around $60k. Reading the site at SONEX tells
> > me they really know whats going on. Homebuilt planes
> > aren't for little guys in shop anymore its a big
> > buck game now where people are now spending on
> > average more for a 'kit plane' than if they just
> > bought a new plane.
> >
> > I'm glad that Matronics has this board, I'm glad
> > there is at least one board in the EAA homebuilt
> > world that isn't censored and controlled by vendors.
> > We really need to have solid answers to questions,
> > and not just base decision on emotions and feelings.
> >
> > [quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated
> > 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > flicka401@gmail.com writes:
> >
> > > Anybody have any ideas? I know that two
> > different brothers are running two different
> > company's, and
> >
> >
> > The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to
> > allow for easy installation of your choice of
> > engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru 3300,
> > Continental O-200 and more.
> >
> > "Your choice of engine" is not a recommendation.
> >
> > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
> > your travel deal here
> >
> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047).
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated
> > 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> > flicka750 writes:
> >
> > > Anybody have any ideas? I know that two
> > different brothers are running two different
> > company's, and
> >
> >
> > The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to
> > allow for easy installation of your choice of
> > engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru 3300,
> > Continental O-200 and more.
> >
> > "Your choice of engine" is not a recommendation.
> >
> >
> >
> > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
> > your travel deal [b]here
> >
> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047).
> >
> > > [b]
> >
> >
> > --------
> > flicka750(AT)gmail
> > "Common sense is the accumulated prejudices
> > before the age of 18" Einstein
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> >
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0077#200077
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > browse
> > Un/Subscription,
> > FAQ,
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
> >
> > Forums!
> >
> > Admin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Ch-750 versus Ch-701 |
"You pissed off CHEERIOS"
Yes, its not hard to piss off the QB/BA/... CREW, when you ask tough questions.
I have NO desire to buy a quick-build of anything, but I read everything, and research
what I can. I finished my 'rudder', and I need to decide with the 701/750
choice that just popped up! I had long set on a 701 years ago, I want a STOL
to fly in/out of my farm. Then this fall when I was ready to order my full
701 kit up pops this 750; I got confused; probably dementia.
Regarding my QB rhetoric, I must admit I'm a Van's RV builder, and I have been
around these QB/Builder-Assist goats long enough to know the racket in the EAA/kit-build
industry. I'm a do it your self'r, I don't pay nobody to do anything.
I only mention QB/BA because they're funny people.
[ Did you all know that both Van's & Zen have their QB's done by the same outfit
in the Philippines?? Small world. ]
Getting people to answer the most simple questions is like pulling teeth on these
boards. The problem I see here is like in the Van's world BA's are now so
used to pulling down $1200/day ( I KID YOU NOT! ), that its getting to the point
that nobody wants to answer simple questions without writing a check. I don't
write no checks.
I believe the pure EAA spirit, in my chapter I'm more than happy to help a fellow
builders, and I'm not out to take the food out of their children's mouthes.
BA-builder assist ( gentlemans term for $150/hr consulting fee, aka 51% bribery,
aka rich-mans airplane; todays racket )
QB-quickbuild ( gentlemans term for BA )
I find the zenith builders to be a breath of fresh air, completely different crowd
than the Van's builders. Too many lawyers and doc's in the Van's crowd. At
least the zen folk tend to be old fashion do it yourself guys, my other hobbys
are restoring old cat-bull dozers (d7 and bigger ) and tractors, so I know all
about 'scratch building'.
I don't mean to pick on Van's because there's always Lancair, with their $1M 'kits',
in Oregon there is a cottage industry of guys doing 99% build for real rich
people. Its very sad, that we can't be honest and tell the truth; Most sad
of all is that all the money that's being made, is going to DESTROY OUR HOBBY
if we don't stick together. Too many people are making too much money.
Post one sentence of the above on 'vans airforce' and they'll ban your IP in a
nano-second, most of these blogs on the internet are all ran by QB/BA people.
There really needs to be a board for builder's, do it yourself builders. I'm not
sure yet if MATRONICS is that board, but the boss hasn't banned my IP yet.
[quote="john.marzulli(at)gmail.co"]
> If you can't do that, wait a few months and Obama will tell you which airplane
to build. If "you're" lucky.
>
WTF?
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ (http://701Builder.blogspot.com/)
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ (http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/)
http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/ (http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/)
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:07 PM, ProWash wrote:
>
> Geezz, Flicka750,
> Who pissed in your Cheerios. I'm a complete beginner at building and I was
able to gather the information available at the time and make a decision about
which airplane to build. I bought a 701 kit and within a year have nearly completed
it without even talking to the "Quick Build" industry.
>
> If I can do it, anyone can. You do have to take responsibility for for your
thoughts and actions though.
>
> If you can't do that, wait a few months and Obama will tell you which airplane
to build. If "you're" lucky.
>
> No Fear, I only needed $150 worth of tools.
>
> --------
> R Craig
> North Central Arkansas
> 701 SP Nearly Done
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199829#199829 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199829#199829)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [b]
--------
flicka750(AT)gmail
EINSTEIN:"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18"
TWAIN: "Intercourse is life's most over-rated pleasure, defecation is life's
most under-rated pleasure"
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0155#200155
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different? |
People are doing it.
Perhaps if we all chip in some coin, we can pay somebody out there in 701-land
to report back that has a jab-3300 in his 701 if he's flying?
If nobody responds, then we know in all cases it was a suicide mission.
It could be such a small-world on this board, that nobody actually flys a 701,
or own a jab-3300? I'm beginning to think that the latter is the case.
Yes, if I had unlimited money I would buy a brand new super-cub from Piper. ( Pay
the right people $100M, and I'm sure they would pull out the jigs )
That said, given I'm just a poor old stump-farmer, I have to build my own STOL.
The whole point of kit-building is to have a plane that you know inside & out,
that cost significantly less than new. Today's kit-building world with all the
retiring HELOC ( easy home equity money, foreclosure on Real estate ) 'rich
people' has destroyed the ability to build an airplane for cheap.
I'm down to the 750 w/ the MAT 0-200, or the 701 w/ the Jab-3300.
If the 750 full kit was shipping today, I would just do it. Trouble is it ain't.
The 701 full kit is shipping, with a three month back-order.
The 701 locks up $6500 ( 1/2 up front to order up front ), the 750 locks up $10k
( 1/2 up front cash). Zenith doesn't mess around. It's a marriage, obviously
uncle-heintz is a smart businessman.
I'm always leery to give someone 100% of their profit before a job is even done.
The delivery of the 701 is a known un-known, the delivery of the 750 is unknown-unknown,
and its never a good idea to own a first-generation of anything iPhones,
or Cabbage Patch Dolls.
graeme(at)coletoolcentre. wrote:
> Jabiru engines and 701 is ok but not recomend
> the problems they are having with the jabiru engines is often attributed to
> cooling,
> in a fast aircraft like a Jabiru or CH601 install is ok but If I had the
> money I would have a 912S Rotax in my ch701
> If I were Building a CH601 I would also have a 912S. No money S/hand
> Aircraft engine.
>
> I have a S/Hand 912 80 HP wilt 912xtra pistons (95hp!!maybe!) and am happy
> with the Price and Performance in My 701 two up.
>
> Graemecns
> Australia
>
> ---
--------
flicka750(AT)gmail
EINSTEIN:"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18"
TWAIN: "Intercourse is life's most over-rated pleasure, defecation is life's
most under-rated pleasure"
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0166#200166
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 701 & the Jab3300 |
This might be a good time to jump in here as there seems to be a lot of
discussion as to whether the Jabiru 3300 is an adequate engine for the 701.
I have the first or close to the first 701 with a Jabiru 3300. It was the
prototype plane used by Pete at JabiruUSA to fit a firewall forward package
using the 701. A proven 601 cowling was modified for the purpose and more
recently was modified again to address cooling issues. Although the
original cowling worked well at temperatures below 75 degrees, cooling
issues, specifically CHT's, were too high while climbing for any length of
time. I finally reglassed the cowling and the cooling ducts to allow 40%
more inlet air and opened the bottom of the cowling to allow the correct
differential pressure. The modification worked wonderfully. I no longer
have any cooling issues although I haven't flown "Buzz" in temps greater
than 95 degrees. I believe Pete at JabiruUSA has since modified his
firewall forward package to change his cowling and inlet ducts to
approximate my installation. Should be great.
I tried several different propellers (thanks to the helpful staff at JabUSA)
and have found the correct combination for me. In this process, Pete sent
me a 68" prop which I loved but it was tested with the original cowling and
the temps were even slightly higher due to flatness of the blades close the
inlet openings. Would be fun to try it now with the improved cowling but am
very satisfied with my 64" prop. I can't remember the correct pitch, etc,
but can supply that information when I get back to Arizona.
The performance has been very acceptable, however it's hard to judge the
difference in a Rotax powered 701 as I have never owned or flown a Rotax
powered 701. I've owned and flew a 701 with a Jab 2200 for about 70 hours
and Buzz for about 65 hours. Additionally, Buzz has been modified with
PegaStol wings (retractable slats), extended gear, etc., making it slightly
heavy although the wing installation increased my gross weight to 1,200lbs.
It does get off very quickly and climbs with two people at about 1,000' per
minute. Works for me.
I really like the 3300 Jab engine. I also liked the 2200. I think the 2200
powered 701 got of the ground as fast or shorter than the 3300 but Buzz is
at least 100 lbs heavier. I would have used another 2200 but the climb was
only about 400 ft pre/min and needed more for Alaska and Colorado. Jabs
start smoothly and easily, and most of all, hardly any vibration in cruise
(3300). I cruise at about 85 with less than 4 gallons per/hour at about
2500RPM but can easily push it up to 100 if I want to pay for the gas. With
the new hydraulic lifters, there is very little maintenance, single carb
(which is a big plus), and easy to do maintenance if needed.
I removed the wings and stored it in my garage while I went to Alaska and
Colorado for the summer. I plan to put the wings back on shortly and
hopefully, fly it to the Copperstate Fly-in in Arizona the last part of
October. See: http://www.copperstate.org/
Hope this answers a few of the questions. For those of you interested, I
have a few pictures posted at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22918119@N08/
James Sagerser
Chandler, Arizona
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan |
different?
Well flicka, I guess you just answered your own question. No
first-generation for you, so order the 701 and get on with it.
Mark S.
701/912uls
a few more days painting
then final assembly
and its never a good idea to own a first-generation of anything iPhones, or
Cabbage Patch Dolls.
----- Original Message -----
From: "flicka750" <flicka750@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 4:44 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa &
zencan different?
>
> People are doing it.
>
> Perhaps if we all chip in some coin, we can pay somebody out there in
> 701-land to report back that has a jab-3300 in his 701 if he's flying?
>
> If nobody responds, then we know in all cases it was a suicide mission.
>
> It could be such a small-world on this board, that nobody actually flys a
> 701, or own a jab-3300? I'm beginning to think that the latter is the
> case.
>
> Yes, if I had unlimited money I would buy a brand new super-cub from
> Piper. ( Pay the right people $100M, and I'm sure they would pull out the
> jigs )
>
> That said, given I'm just a poor old stump-farmer, I have to build my own
> STOL. The whole point of kit-building is to have a plane that you know
> inside & out, that cost significantly less than new. Today's kit-building
> world with all the retiring HELOC ( easy home equity money, foreclosure on
> Real estate ) 'rich people' has destroyed the ability to build an airplane
> for cheap.
>
> I'm down to the 750 w/ the MAT 0-200, or the 701 w/ the Jab-3300.
>
> If the 750 full kit was shipping today, I would just do it. Trouble is it
> ain't. The 701 full kit is shipping, with a three month back-order.
>
> The 701 locks up $6500 ( 1/2 up front to order up front ), the 750 locks
> up $10k ( 1/2 up front cash). Zenith doesn't mess around. It's a
> marriage, obviously uncle-heintz is a smart businessman.
>
> I'm always leery to give someone 100% of their profit before a job is even
> done. The delivery of the 701 is a known un-known, the delivery of the 750
> is unknown-unknown, and its never a good idea to own a first-generation of
> anything iPhones, or Cabbage Patch Dolls.
>
>
> graeme(at)coletoolcentre. wrote:
>> Jabiru engines and 701 is ok but not recomend
>> the problems they are having with the jabiru engines is often attributed
>> to
>> cooling,
>> in a fast aircraft like a Jabiru or CH601 install is ok but If I had the
>> money I would have a 912S Rotax in my ch701
>> If I were Building a CH601 I would also have a 912S. No money S/hand
>> Aircraft engine.
>>
>> I have a S/Hand 912 80 HP wilt 912xtra pistons (95hp!!maybe!) and am
>> happy
>> with the Price and Performance in My 701 two up.
>>
>> Graemecns
>> Australia
>>
>> ---
>
>
> --------
> flicka750(AT)gmail
> EINSTEIN:"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age
> of 18"
> TWAIN: "Intercourse is life's most over-rated pleasure, defecation is
> life's most under-rated pleasure"
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0166#200166
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 1:16 PM
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9p=2E_=3A_Zenith701801-List=3A_701_=26_the_Jab3300? |
Hope flicka500 reads it this time !
Jean-Paul Roy
--- En date de-: Sam, 23.8.08, James Sagerser <lvuman@gmail.com> a =E9cri
t-:
De: James Sagerser <lvuman@gmail.com>
Objet: Zenith701801-List: 701 & the Jab3300
=C0: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
This might be a good time to jump in here as there seems to be a lot of
discussion as to whether the Jabiru 3300 is an adequate engine for the 701.
I have the first or close to the first 701 with a Jabiru 3300.- It was th
e prototype plane used by Pete at JabiruUSA to fit a firewall forward packa
ge using the 701.-- A proven 601 cowling was modified for the purpose a
nd more recently was modified again to address cooling issues.- Although
the original cowling worked well at temperatures below 75 degrees, cooling
issues, specifically CHT's, were too high while climbing for any length of
time.- I finally reglassed the cowling and the cooling ducts to allow 40%
more inlet air and opened the bottom of the cowling to allow the correct d
ifferential pressure.- The modification worked wonderfully.- I no longe
r have any cooling issues although I haven't flown "Buzz" in temps greater
than 95 degrees.- I believe Pete at JabiruUSA has since modified his fire
wall forward package to change his cowling and inlet ducts to approximate m
y installation.- Should be great.
I tried several different propellers (thanks to the helpful staff at JabUSA
) and have found the correct combination for me.- In this process, Pete s
ent me a 68" prop which I loved but it was tested with the original cowling
and the temps were even slightly higher due to flatness of the blades clos
e the inlet openings.- Would be fun to try it now with the improved cowli
ng but am very satisfied with my 64" prop.- I can't remember the correct
pitch, etc, but can supply that information when I get back to Arizona.
The performance has been very acceptable, however it's hard to judge the di
fference in a Rotax powered 701 as I have never owned or flown a Rotax powe
red 701.- I've owned and flew a 701 with a Jab 2200 for about 70 hours an
d Buzz for about 65 hours.- Additionally, Buzz has been modified with Peg
aStol wings (retractable slats), extended gear, etc., making it slightly he
avy although the wing installation increased my gross weight to 1,200lbs. I
t does get off very quickly and climbs with two people at about 1,000' per
minute.- Works for me.
I really like the 3300 Jab engine.- I also liked the 2200.- I think the
2200 powered 701 got of the ground as fast or shorter than the 3300 but Bu
zz is at least 100 lbs heavier.- I would have used another 2200 but the c
limb was only about 400 ft pre/min and needed more for Alaska and Colorado.
- Jabs start smoothly and easily, and most of all, hardly any vibration i
n cruise (3300).- I cruise at about 85 with less than 4 gallons per/hour
at about 2500RPM but can easily push it up to 100 if I want to pay for the
gas.- With the new hydraulic lifters, there is very little maintenance, s
ingle carb (which is a big plus), and easy to do maintenance if needed.-
I removed the wings and stored it in my garage while I went to Alaska and C
olorado for the summer.- I plan to put the wings back on shortly and hope
fully, fly it to the Copperstate Fly-in in Arizona the last part of October
..- See:- http://www.copperstate.org/
Hope this answers a few of the questions.- For those of you interested, I
have a few pictures posted at:--- http://www.flickr.com/photos/22918
119@N08/
James Sagerser
Chandler, Arizona
=0A=0A=0A D=E9couvrez les styles qui font sensation sur Yahoo! Qu=E9be
c Avatars.=0Ahttp://cf.avatars.yahoo.com/
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 701 & the Jab3300 |
James, how did you do the angle mount for your Enigma EFIS in Buzz?
And how do you like the Enigma?
-- Craig
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 701 & the Jab3300 |
I cut the angles out of 3/8" hardwood, painted them black and glued
to the side of the Enigma. Worked great. Jim
On Aug 23, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Craig Payne wrote:
> James, how did you do the angle mount for your Enigma EFIS in Buzz?
>
> And how do you like the Enigma?
>
> -- Craig
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|