Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:49 AM - 801 seat belts (Keystone Engineering LLC)
2. 10:07 AM - Re: 801 seat belts (Terry Phillips)
3. 10:24 AM - Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/11/08 (Bob & Lin)
4. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/11/08 (BokKat)
5. 12:25 PM - Re: 801 seat belts (n85ae)
6. 07:19 PM - 701 corvair (Roy Szarafinski)
7. 07:43 PM - 701 tunnel clearance (Tracy)
Message 1
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Jeff
Can I get pics of how you beefed up your seat belt attach points?
When Jim F wrecked his 801 the rivets pulled out from the center attach
point. He was in the plane by himself when he crashed. I hate to think
what would have happened if there had been 2 people in the front seat.
I suspect ZAC assumed the rivets would be in shear but they failed in
tension.
I installed another AL plate under the tunnel top and used A-6 rivets on my
center attach point after what happened to Jim.
Bill Wilcox
N801BW
Valdez, AK
15 hrs on Full Lotus floats
Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Something to think about, because Zenith sure did not do their engineering
calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in shear, if
indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them with 4130
steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
longerons. I
also added structure to the center console.
Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable, so I'm not sure
what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they were
not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway, but I sure don't
want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
Jeff
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 801 seat belts |
Bill
I'm going to chip in here, even though I'm the 601 side. IMHO, this is a
very important topic. I have a good friend who was a NM Army National Guard
helicopter pilot for many years. He told me that, on several occasions, he
participated in recovering the bodies of downed pilots who, in his opinion,
would have survived their crash if they hadn't smashed their face into the
panel. He's a big believer in robust seat belts/harnesses.
In my 601XL, I'm planning on using the shoulder harness that Van's sells
for their RV's (for a very reasonable price). Klaus Truemper installed
similar 4-point belt-harnesses in his 601HDS. I asked him about the
attachment and here are my notes from our conversation:
"On each side he ran a reinforcement of ~0.060 6061-T6 from the longeron at
the rear of the baggage compartment (I assume this was the normal
attachment point for Zenith shoulder belts) to just aft of the seat backs.
This sheet was placed beneath the baggage compartment floor. Then he
attached the shoulder harness brackets with a bolt through the baggage
compartment floor and the 0.060 reinforcement. The reinforcement was shaped
like a Y going back to each longeron and was attached to
longeron/fuselage/baggage floor joint with 5 or 6 solid rivets."
I believe that the reinforcement was riveted to the baggage compartment
floor also.
Terry
At 07:48 AM 9/12/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>Jeff
>
>Can I get pics of how you beefed up your seat belt attach points?
>
>When Jim F wrecked his 801 the rivets pulled out from the center attach
>point. He was in the plane by himself when he crashed. I hate to think
>what would have happened if there had been 2 people in the front seat.
>
>I suspect ZAC assumed the rivets would be in shear but they failed in
>tension.
>
>I installed another AL plate under the tunnel top and used A-6 rivets on my
>center attach point after what happened to Jim.
>
>
>Bill Wilcox
>N801BW
>Valdez, AK
>15 hrs on Full Lotus floats
>
>
>Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
>Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
>From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Something to think about, because Zenith sure did not do their engineering
>calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
>
>I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in shear, if
>indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them with 4130
>steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
>longerons. I
>also added structure to the center console.
>
>Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable, so I'm not sure
>what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they were
>not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
>
>I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway, but I sure don't
>want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
>
>Jeff
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/11/08 |
Another Slat issue...
Since the slats become effective at high angles of attack, and even Zenair
is using Feathers VGs on the elevator, has anyone thought of using VGs on
the front of the slats to add control at shallower angle of attack while
keeping the slats benefit for steeper approaches?
Anyone care to try that for the best of both worlds?
Bob Lee
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 2:58 AM, Zenith701801-List Digest Server <
zenith701801-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Zenith701801-List Digest can also be found in either of
> the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Zenith701801-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
> editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-09-11&Archive=Zenith701801
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-09-11&Archive=Zenith701801
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Zenith701801-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 09/11/08: 8
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:22 AM - Re: Unequal fuel tank levels (Zed Smith)
> 2. 06:40 AM - Re: Unequal fuel tank levels (n85ae)
> 3. 08:16 AM - test (Dan)
> 4. 08:27 AM - Re: test (Ken Arnold)
> 5. 11:32 AM - CH701 POH (Ken Arnold)
> 6. 12:54 PM - Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (n85ae)
> 7. 02:46 PM - Re: CH701 POH (John Swanson)
> 8. 05:19 PM - Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (Viper_on_line)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:22:39 AM PST US
> From: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Unequal fuel tank levels
>
>
> do not archive
>
> Gravity-induced air leakage is the problem.
>
> One wing, being slightly lower than the other, upsets the intended equal
> distribution
> of fuel.
> This then results in massive amounts of air getting into the higher tank.
> A two-inch left-to-right tilt is nearly one-half the depth of the 701
> tanks; nearly
> one-half the capacity.
>
> A wise old ag pilot once told me that the prop was just a big fan....it is
> there
> to keep the pilot cool.
> He went on to say that if the fan stops you can see the pilot sweat.
>
> Those with unequal fuel levels may need to install an auxillary air pump to
> replenish
> the tank with less air. This may help to keep the fan running.
>
> Everybody have a nice day, and straighten up and fly right-hand patterns!!
>
> Zed
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:40:59 AM PST US
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Unequal fuel tank levels
> From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
>
>
> If you guys REALLY want to understand why the fuel level is different,
> then you have to drop the simplistic view.
>
> Go to Google and search on "fluid dynamics hydraulic head", it's not
> completely simple but this is the explanation as to why the difference.
>
> There are a great number of factors that are at play, the end result is
> pressure differential across the tanks
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3794#203794
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:16:37 AM PST US
> From: Dan <dwilde@clearwire.net>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: test
>
>
> test
> do not archive
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:27:23 AM PST US
> From: "Ken Arnold" <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: test
>
>
> good test Dan,
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan" <dwilde@clearwire.net>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:13 AM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: test
>
>
> >
> > test
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:32:34 AM PST US
> From: "Ken Arnold" <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: CH701 POH
>
> Hi Listers,
> I have a draft of the subject. Still needs some tweaks. Anyone wanting
> to take a look is welcome.
>
> Please contact me directly via my e-mail address.
> Regards,
> Ken
>
> do not archive
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
> From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Something to think about, because Zenith sure did not do their engineering
> calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
>
> I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in shear, if
> indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them with 4130
> steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
> longerons. I
> also added structure to the center console.
>
> Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable, so I'm not sure
> what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they were
> not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
>
> I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway, but I sure don't
> want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3870#203870
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 02:46:12 PM PST US
> From: "John Swanson" <jswanson@jamadots.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: CH701 POH
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Arnold
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:30 PM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: CH701 POH
>
>
> Hi Listers,
> I have a draft of the subject. Still needs some tweaks. Anyone
> wanting to take a look is welcome.
>
> Please contact me directly via my e-mail address.
> Regards,
> Ken
>
> do not archive
> KenI would like to see ur Poh I hope
> have my 701 flying this month.CH701 912 ULSJohn Swanson
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 9/11/2008 7:03 AM
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:19:57 PM PST US
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
> From: "Viper_on_line" <randnc@bigpond.com>
>
>
> Thanks Guys,
> The load dissipation of the seat belt mount can become intricate when you
> can't
> get to a longeron as in the case of the shoulder harness. And then as has
> been
> said is the 0.063 going to be going to be strong enough to prevent the bolt
> ripping out if you make the mounting structure too strong? I think it is
> better
> to have the seatbelt support structure crumple but keep you at least
> partially
> secure than have the belt bolt rip out.
>
> At this stage the plan is to increase the shoulder harness attachment
> brackets
> to 0.093 and using Larry's idea of a cross fuselage support at the
> front/rear
> baggage shelf junction and the zee channel all secured with A5 rivets. To
> spread
> the load I am using .040 L's from the centre of the cross fuselage harness
> support (long name?) to the back corners of the rear baggage shelf. Thus
> creating
> a truss of the rear baggage shelf and spreading the load hopefully over the
> whole area.
>
> Does that sound suitable to the more engineering minded of you?
> [Question]
>
> --------
> 701 scratch builder
> one day it will fly
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3905#203905
>
>
--
I'll keep looking for the haystack, 'cause when I look in Linda's eyes
The thought there is a needle, makes it worth a thousand tries...
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 09/11/08 |
I wondered about that, too. But then wouldn't you need to put them on
the underside of the slats, or on the wing's leading edge between the
slats and the wing itself??
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob & Lin
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:23 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Zenith701801-List Digest: 8 Msgs -
09/11/08
Another Slat issue...
Since the slats become effective at high angles of attack, and even
Zenair is using Feathers VGs on the elevator, has anyone thought of
using VGs on the front of the slats to add control at shallower angle of
attack while keeping the slats benefit for steeper approaches?
Anyone care to try that for the best of both worlds?
Bob Lee
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 2:58 AM, Zenith701801-List Digest Server
<zenith701801-list@matronics.com> wrote:
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
Today's complete Zenith701801-List Digest can also be found in
either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
version
of the Zenith701801-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic
text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&
Chapter 08-09-11&Archive=Zenith701801
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C
hapter 08-09-11&Archive=Zenith701801
======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Zenith701801-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 09/11/08: 8
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:22 AM - Re: Unequal fuel tank levels (Zed Smith)
2. 06:40 AM - Re: Unequal fuel tank levels (n85ae)
3. 08:16 AM - test (Dan)
4. 08:27 AM - Re: test (Ken Arnold)
5. 11:32 AM - CH701 POH (Ken Arnold)
6. 12:54 PM - Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (n85ae)
7. 02:46 PM - Re: CH701 POH (John Swanson)
8. 05:19 PM - Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (Viper_on_line)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 05:22:39 AM PST US
From: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Unequal fuel tank levels
do not archive
Gravity-induced air leakage is the problem.
One wing, being slightly lower than the other, upsets the intended
equal distribution
of fuel.
This then results in massive amounts of air getting into the higher
tank.
A two-inch left-to-right tilt is nearly one-half the depth of the
701 tanks; nearly
one-half the capacity.
A wise old ag pilot once told me that the prop was just a big
fan....it is there
to keep the pilot cool.
He went on to say that if the fan stops you can see the pilot sweat.
Those with unequal fuel levels may need to install an auxillary air
pump to replenish
the tank with less air. This may help to keep the fan running.
Everybody have a nice day, and straighten up and fly right-hand
patterns!!
Zed
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 06:40:59 AM PST US
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Unequal fuel tank levels
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
If you guys REALLY want to understand why the fuel level is
different,
then you have to drop the simplistic view.
Go to Google and search on "fluid dynamics hydraulic head", it's
not
completely simple but this is the explanation as to why the
difference.
There are a great number of factors that are at play, the end result
is
pressure differential across the tanks
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3794#203794
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 08:16:37 AM PST US
From: Dan <dwilde@clearwire.net>
Subject: Zenith701801-List: test
test
do not archive
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 08:27:23 AM PST US
From: "Ken Arnold" <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: test
good test Dan,
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan" <dwilde@clearwire.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: test
>
> test
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 11:32:34 AM PST US
From: "Ken Arnold" <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Zenith701801-List: CH701 POH
Hi Listers,
I have a draft of the subject. Still needs some tweaks. Anyone
wanting
to take a look is welcome.
Please contact me directly via my e-mail address.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Something to think about, because Zenith sure did not do their
engineering
calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in
shear, if
indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them
with 4130
steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
longerons. I
also added structure to the center console.
Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable, so I'm not
sure
what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they
were
not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway, but I
sure don't
want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3870#203870
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 02:46:12 PM PST US
From: "John Swanson" <jswanson@jamadots.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: CH701 POH
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Arnold
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:30 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: CH701 POH
Hi Listers,
I have a draft of the subject. Still needs some tweaks. Anyone
wanting to take a look is welcome.
Please contact me directly via my e-mail address.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
KenI would like to see ur Poh I
hope
have my 701 flying this month.CH701 912 ULSJohn Swanson
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
9/11/2008 7:03 AM
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 05:19:57 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
From: "Viper_on_line" <randnc@bigpond.com>
Thanks Guys,
The load dissipation of the seat belt mount can become intricate
when you can't
get to a longeron as in the case of the shoulder harness. And then
as has been
said is the 0.063 going to be going to be strong enough to prevent
the bolt
ripping out if you make the mounting structure too strong? I think
it is better
to have the seatbelt support structure crumple but keep you at least
partially
secure than have the belt bolt rip out.
At this stage the plan is to increase the shoulder harness
attachment brackets
to 0.093 and using Larry's idea of a cross fuselage support at the
front/rear
baggage shelf junction and the zee channel all secured with A5
rivets. To spread
the load I am using .040 L's from the centre of the cross fuselage
harness
support (long name?) to the back corners of the rear baggage shelf.
Thus creating
a truss of the rear baggage shelf and spreading the load hopefully
over the
whole area.
Does that sound suitable to the more engineering minded of you?
[Question]
--------
701 scratch builder
one day it will fly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3905#203905
--
I'll keep looking for the haystack, 'cause when I look in Linda's eyes
The thought there is a needle, makes it worth a thousand tries...
Message 5
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|
| Subject: | Re: 801 seat belts |
I don't have pics, but I can describe what I did.
The shoulder harness attach points I kept the originals, however I riveted
them with Solid rivets. I made the assumption that the lap attach points
would end up with the major load in a crash so I concentrated on them.
REAR SEAT:
The lapbelt attach points I replace with exact duplicates made from 4130
steel. On the rear seat belts I bolted them to the fues logerons with
AN3 bolts (two bolts each side). The center attach point on the back side
I made some 4130 angles which rivet to the sides of the tunnel that carries
the elevator bellcrank, the center stock attach point then is bolted through
the seat to the angles. So in effect you have the center attach riveted
to the seat per Zenith plans, and then further bolted with two AN3 bolts
to the 4130 angles which have as I recall 5 x 5/32 solid rivets conecting
to the bellcrank tunnel sides.
FRONT SEAT:
The front seat center attach is 4130, and on the inside of the tunnel
I used .063 6061 and made an aluminum backing plate with a 90 degree
L at the front. The L at the front rivets through the 8F11-11 right above
where the controls pass through. I replaced all the rivets with 5/32 solids
The outboard seat attach points are 4130, also with .063 backing plates,
the backing plates are also riveted through where the 8F11-11 attaches to
the cabin sides.
Could probably do more, but I guess at this point if what I added fails then
likely it's not survivable anyways.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4005#204005
Message 6
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|
The plan has finally come together , see video of the running engine on my 701 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzIyRPXRRR4 or at the end of my site at roysgarage.com
It has been a long time in coming. Just have the wings to finnish up and a sport
license to acquire. Plus a zillion loose ends.
To all, keep building and be careful what you do 'temporarily'
Roy
Message 7
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| Subject: | 701 tunnel clearance |
has anyone had a problem with tunnel clearance in full left aileron and full down
elevator? the pitch rod just touches the tunnel
and has anyone done anything better than the bungee on the elevator cables ?
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