Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:17 AM - Re: Re: 801 seat belts (Gary Gower)
2. 05:34 AM - After 5 hours flight time, questions (BokKat)
3. 06:26 AM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Gordon)
4. 06:42 AM - Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (n85ae)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (Randall J. Hebert)
6. 08:23 AM - Re: Why not just build the fuel system as per the plan (Dan Wilde)
7. 09:03 AM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (BokKat)
8. 09:06 AM - FW: Zenith Gathering (George Race)
9. 10:01 AM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Gordon)
10. 10:03 AM - Re: Why not just build the fuel system as per the plan (sonar1@cox.net)
11. 10:05 AM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (BokKat)
12. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (Roy Szarafinski)
13. 12:04 PM - Re: Shoulder Harness attachment (n85ae)
14. 12:11 PM - Re: Why not just build the fuel system as per the plan (n85ae)
15. 12:42 PM - fuel flow for CH701 (bob)
16. 12:53 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Gary Gower)
17. 01:09 PM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (n85ae)
18. 01:33 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Les Goldner)
19. 01:35 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Dan Wilde)
20. 02:10 PM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Curt Thompson)
21. 02:17 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Craig Payne)
22. 02:50 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (LarryMcFarland)
23. 02:57 PM - Re: FW: Zenith Gathering (Stanley Challgren)
24. 04:33 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Gordon)
25. 06:08 PM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Ken Ryan)
26. 06:22 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (NYTerminat@aol.com)
27. 06:31 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Craig Payne)
28. 06:49 PM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Curt Thompson)
29. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (n801bh@netzero.com)
30. 07:01 PM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (n801bh@netzero.com)
31. 07:17 PM - Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (NYTerminat@aol.com)
32. 07:54 PM - 801 wing root rib (bcchurch)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RE: 801 seat belts |
(was writing an answer and lost it,- problably touch the sent button?-
if not will try one more time, hope is similar... or better)
-
Hello Joe,
-
Nothing,- no harm at all, maybe that you will not be satisfied with only
the bracket,- then will reinforce something else, until the plane will be
over weight.---
-
We all build our airplanes to enjoy them and fly them the best we can.-
-
-
When we choose to fly in good weather (do our weather breifing and flight p
lanning), the-airplane and the engine has-good mantainance, fuel -tan
ks at take off with enough fuel for the trip and plenty of reserve, made a
correct prefight (with the card in hand), we take off and land the best we
can, we had a good instructor and fly and practice our skills as if "that"
instructor was always at our right seat.-
-
Chance are that "this"-pilot will need more the safety belts of his car t
han in his-airplane.
1,000's of old retired pilots to proof it.--
-
Yes, I know that accidents happen (most movies have an- airplane crash sc
ene, ask the ladies in the grocery store), but I gladly take the risk to dr
ive to and from -my airdrome- (about one hour drive each way, depends o
n traffic) to enjoy the-safety of a good week end flight in my 701 STOL.
-
-
Sadly in my life.- I have lost more friends in car an other related accid
ents that flying.- One- of them just driving home-from a bar with iro
n safety belt brackets and air bags.
-
Saludos
Gary- Gower
"El tama=F1o del candado es proporcional con el miedo al robo."-
"The size of the padlock is proportional with the fear to the robbery."
Archive if you want :-)- :-)
--- On Wed, 9/17/08, Joemotis@aol.com <Joemotis@aol.com> wrote:
From: Joemotis@aol.com <Joemotis@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: RE: 801 seat belts
In a message dated 9/16/2008 8:51:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ggower_99@
yahoo.com writes:
(in Spanish is exponencial).
In English is exponential.
If you want to make the bracket Bigger, thicker, longer and stronger and to
clarify I am NOT an Engineer, what's the worst possible harm?
-
Joe Motis
-
No Archivos, Eh
-=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | After 5 hours flight time, questions |
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is getting.
I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp prop at
about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator off?
Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and bangs
back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I checked
everything else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out and
immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor a Low
Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2 psi,
yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked the
fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the front
of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the firewall
that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel flow
senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the elevator and
recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via SST or SR-71?)
Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much sensitivity! It
throws itself into the air and I found I have to be ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done much
testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably at
this point.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
I have the same engine and prop and cruise at 4400 rpm (nice and quiet
and low fuel burn) and show about 78mph + or minus depending on gross
weight, turbulence and if I'm paying attention. This is on my Dynon and
conventional ASI, both are within a MPH of each other.
I get the same clatter in slow flight. In my case it's the back of the
baggage compartment that starts oil canning and banging at about 50mph.
Can't comment on the fuel issues -- I haven't had any.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is getting.
I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp prop at
about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator off?
Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and
bangs back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I checked
everything else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out and
immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor a Low
Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2 psi,
yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked the
fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the front
of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the firewall
that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel flow
senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the elevator
and recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via SST or
SR-71?) Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much
sensitivity! It throws itself into the air and I found I have to be
ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done much
testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably at
this point.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness attachment |
Cal -
I would think your common sense would be telling you that, having your
seatbelt attached to something that might break is a bad thing. If you
really think it is plenty strong, then you're more than welcome to to build
it per the plans.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4760#204760
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness attachment |
Cal and Jeff
I too am a structural engineer.
In buildings and general structures.
In my experience when my client perceives that something is inadequate,
no matter how hard I try to convince them that I am correct, in their
minds it is inadequate.
Perception plays a big part in this discussion.
Jeff can probably relate to this.
Although I am not an Aeronautical Engineer, Structural Engineering
relates to calculation of loadings and stress analysis in any structure.
Loads in these aircraft are of a small magnitude thus aluminum
structures.
Jeff the high G loading are probably out of the design criteria of these
aircraft.
It is like designing a building here in S Louisiana for a 150mph wind
when the statistical wind speeds are 110 mph. (90mph thanks to Gustav)
The problem I see here is that more is not always better. Increasing a
parts strength can move a failure regime to another part causing other
types of failures to occur.
Thanks to both of you guys for bringing this issue up however, because I
will now look more closely at this area when I get to it.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Engineers
Ph 337-261-1976 Fx 337-261-1977
Cal -
I would think your common sense would be telling you that, having your
seatbelt attached to something that might break is a bad thing. If you
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Why not just build the fuel system as per the |
plan
Brett Hanley wrote:
> I have not heard of any problem building the fuel system as per the
> plan. What are we hoping to gain by changes? Speed? Simplicity? Save
> money? Gain weight? I just do not see the need for modifications.
>
> Brett Hanley
> N858BH
> 701/ Subaru EA81
> 40 hours
> Hilltown PA
>
> *
>
> _*
I built mine as per plan. No problems after 30 hours.
Dan Wilde
N948DW
Do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
Wow, you must have your prop adjusted pretty coarse. Mine's probably
too far the other way.
I checked and was able to oil can the back of the baggage compartment
and also the belly hatch. Maybe an L angle stiffener added here will
"can" the noise!
Thanks for the suggestions.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
I have the same engine and prop and cruise at 4400 rpm (nice and quiet
and low fuel burn) and show about 78mph + or minus depending on gross
weight, turbulence and if I'm paying attention. This is on my Dynon and
conventional ASI, both are within a MPH of each other.
I get the same clatter in slow flight. In my case it's the back of the
baggage compartment that starts oil canning and banging at about 50mph.
Can't comment on the fuel issues -- I haven't had any.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is
getting. I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp
prop at about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator
off? Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and
bangs back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I checked
everything else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out
and immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor a
Low Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2
psi, yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked
the fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the
front of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the
firewall that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel
flow senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the elevator
and recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via SST or
SR-71?) Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much
sensitivity! It throws itself into the air and I found I have to be
ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done
much testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably
at this point.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 8
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| Subject: | FW: Zenith Gathering |
Can someone please help Mark out?
George
-----Original Message-----
From: zodierocket@hsfx.ca [mailto:zodierocket@hsfx.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:19 AM
Subject: Zenith Gathering
Hi George, could you do me a favor please. I came down to the open house
early and forgot to bring a Olfa P-800 Knife for my Forum on Friday. Could
you ask the lists if there is anyone who is attending on Friday if they can
bring me a knife, used or new would be fine. I am trying to find one
locally, but don't expect to much success finding one here in Mexico,
Missouri.
Thanks
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
I set the prop according to the woodcomp instructions. 5450 static rpm
--- it leaps off the ground in a very short distance.
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Wow, you must have your prop adjusted pretty coarse. Mine's probably
too far the other way.
I checked and was able to oil can the back of the baggage compartment
and also the belly hatch. Maybe an L angle stiffener added here will
"can" the noise!
Thanks for the suggestions.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
I have the same engine and prop and cruise at 4400 rpm (nice and
quiet and low fuel burn) and show about 78mph + or minus depending on
gross weight, turbulence and if I'm paying attention. This is on my
Dynon and conventional ASI, both are within a MPH of each other.
I get the same clatter in slow flight. In my case it's the back of
the baggage compartment that starts oil canning and banging at about
50mph.
Can't comment on the fuel issues -- I haven't had any.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is
getting. I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp
prop at about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator
off? Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and
bangs back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I checked
everything else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out
and immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor a
Low Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2
psi, yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked
the fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the
front of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the
firewall that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel
flow senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the
elevator and recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via
SST or SR-71?) Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much
sensitivity! It throws itself into the air and I found I have to be
ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done
much testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably
at this point.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Why not just build the fuel system as per the plan |
Brett:
I didn't like having one full tank and one empty tank on landing, and having no
control over it. At the minimum I would suggest putting an accessible valve in
each line.
Bubbles in the lines were my problem. One bubble will stop the flow.
I also put in an ACS gascolator on the firewall - at least it has a screen - and
am very happy with that.
Those who are putting in header tanks are really complicating everything. I would
never do that.
Fred........N9701
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4794#204794
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
That's what I set mine! Wonder where my speed is gong? Eyeballing
outside I thought I was going about the same speed as my Kitfox. Is
there a setting on the Dynon? If all else fails I'll have to read the
directions. Ha!
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
I set the prop according to the woodcomp instructions. 5450 static rpm
--- it leaps off the ground in a very short distance.
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Wow, you must have your prop adjusted pretty coarse. Mine's
probably too far the other way.
I checked and was able to oil can the back of the baggage
compartment and also the belly hatch. Maybe an L angle stiffener added
here will "can" the noise!
Thanks for the suggestions.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
I have the same engine and prop and cruise at 4400 rpm (nice and
quiet and low fuel burn) and show about 78mph + or minus depending on
gross weight, turbulence and if I'm paying attention. This is on my
Dynon and conventional ASI, both are within a MPH of each other.
I get the same clatter in slow flight. In my case it's the back of
the baggage compartment that starts oil canning and banging at about
50mph.
Can't comment on the fuel issues -- I haven't had any.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is
getting. I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp
prop at about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator
off? Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters
and bangs back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I
checked everything else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb
out and immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor
a Low Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2
psi, yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked
the fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the
front of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the
firewall that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel
flow senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the
elevator and recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via
SST or SR-71?) Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much
sensitivity! It throws itself into the air and I found I have to be
ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done
much testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably
at this point.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness attachment |
Gents, I am not an engineer but have a fair understanding of physics and many other
things. This pertains to the 701, as I have no experience with the 801. The
701 was designed for the standard pilot, 5'6" 165 lbs or something close to
that. Being 6'2" and 220 lbs puts me somewhat outside the design parameters of
the restraint system ( a 150 mph breeze on a structure with 110 mph hurricane
ties). With this in mind I am abandoning the three point harness in favor of
a four point, my idea is to install a .025 hat section in the roof of the baggage
area from front to rear intersecting at the center of the rear wing attach
top channel, incorporating shear doublers at the harness attach point, this
should address upper torso restraint adequately in conjunction with the existing
upper harness mount. To a degree this will lessen the load on the three existing
load points, however the weak link is still the tunnel. Zac addresses this
with a doubler design for
the tunnel. While this may be perfectly adequate I think it can be improved upon
by an .040 attach point riveted to the top of the gear channel and tying into
the existing tunnel restraint attach with a 3/16 cable. The outer lap belt
restraint point can be doubled to the cabin side wall. I am hesitant to attach
anything to the gear structure in the event it shears and departs, so the size
and number of rivets need to be minimum for the gear channel modification I
propose. I envision this type of failure mode (gear departing) to place the gear
channel rivet heads in bearing stress while a frontal impact would place these
same rivets in shear. By rough estimation not including the harness it would
add less than 2 pounds.
Indeed more may not be better and may indeed move a failure regime to another part
causing other types of failure but in the event these proposed modifications
ever come into play, failure of some sort, has already occurred. The last thing
I want to do is to design in a fatal flaw or perish because of an inadequately
sized restraint system.
All responses welcome.
Roy Szarafinski
701 plans
roysgarage.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy@rjhebertassoc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:58:06 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
In my experience when my client perceives that something is inadequate,
no matter how hard I try to convince them that I am correct, in their
minds it is inadequate.
Perception plays a big part in this discussion.
Jeff can probably relate to this.
Loads in these aircraft are of a small magnitude thus aluminum
structures.
Jeff the high G loading are probably out of the design criteria of these
aircraft.
It is like designing a building here in S Louisiana for a 150mph wind
when the statistical wind speeds are 110 mph. (90mph thanks to Gustav)
The problem I see here is that more is not always better. Increasing a
parts strength can move a failure regime to another part causing other
types of failures to occur.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness attachment |
It looks weak to me, so I'm making it stronger.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4812#204812
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Why not just build the fuel system as per the plan |
I built and fly a Kitfox with an Injected Continental IO-240B, with a header
tank. It's a very simple arrangement, and the header gives you a lot of
benefit.
For example. in a headerless system in a steep descent, if you for example
get some air in the fuel lines when the fuel feeds are exposed to air. Your
engine quits. This does not happen with a header. If you want to switch
main tanks in flight the header prevent fuels flow interruptions from
stopping the engine. If you have a header low sensor in the header,
you have a bit of warning before your engine will actually quit (dependant
on header volume).
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4816#204816
Message 15
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| Subject: | fuel flow for CH701 |
Study of the Zenith CH701 two tank fuel system, Bob Kissell, N701UB
After completing my Zenith CH701 with two wing tanks I discovered on my
first cross country flight that I had unbalanced fuel burn. The fuel
system in my aircraft is built per the Zenith drawings, which is
comprised of two ten gallon tanks, one in each wing that are connected
together at the gascolator located at the low point in the system. This
anomaly set about an investigation to explain this event and predict
what would happen if one tank ran dry before the other
To answer these questions several tests were devised and conducted. The
first test was to determine if fuel would be supplied from a tank with
fuel, when the other tank is empty. The test was devised using the
following logic. The Rotax 912ULS that my aircraft uses, can under the
most demanding throttle setting use fuel at no more than 6.5
gallons/hr.. This information is available from the Rotax engine
specifications. The fuel in the Zenith design is pumped (drawn) from the
gascolator to the engine. I propose that if the natural gravity flow
from the tank to the gascolator can supply fuel at a rate that exceeds
the engine demand then the fuel pump never draws fuel from the tank(s),
it really just lifts fuel from the gascolator to the carb's and the fuel
flows by gravity from the tank(s) to replace the fuel lifted. This is
perhaps a different way to look at the Zenith system but I found it made
the problem tractable for me.
The fuel system in my aircraft is built per the Zenith drawings, which
is comprised of two ten gallon tanks, one in each wing that are
connected together at the gascolator located at the low point in the
system. The fuel system uses =BC" ID fuel lines and I have added a fuel
filter in each wing root. The goal of the test was to determine how much
fuel could flow from a single tank and out the gascolator and compare
that rate to the worst case demand of the 100 HP Rotax. Note it really
takes two people to do this test safely. Both fuel lines from left and
right tanks were pinched off by use of two clamps and the cockpit fuel
shutoff was switched off. The drain fitting from the bottom of the
gascolator was then removed. A small funnel placed into an empty water
bottle that could hold 16.9 ounces and was used to catch the fuel. A
stop watch was used to measure how long it took to fill the bottle after
one of the clamps was removed. This process was repeated for the other
tank as well.
The flow was able to fill the 16.9 ounce bottle in 30 seconds. Since
there is 128 ounces of fuel in a gallon this flow rate indicates a flow
of 15.84 gallons/hr from a single tank. The other tank resulted in a
similar flow rate. This test proved to me that fuel flow to the
gascolator from even one tank could easily keep pace with the fuel
demand of the engine. In fact if one tank is empty, the flow from the
other could supply the engine and the difference flow into the other
tank.
This test still did not answer why I had experienced uneven fuel burn.
To answer that question another test was conducted with some simple
math. The Zenith design uses fuel tank caps that are vented around the
edge of the cap. I had wondered if a pressure difference was developing
in the tanks that influenced fuel flow. To determine this I drilled
holes thru the top of the caps and inserted =BC" tubing which ran into
the cockpit and connected to a water manometer. This enabled me to
measure the differential tank pressure in flight.
In level cruise flight at 78 mph IAS, the right tank measured -2.875
inch of water and left measured -2.25 inch of water. This converts to
pressures of (right) -0.10386 PSI and (left) -0.08129 PSI. The
difference pressure is 0.0226 PSI, since fuel weighs 0.02597 lbs/inch,
the fuel head required to equal this pressure is 0.869 inch. The fuel
level difference required amounts to less than 1". This result suggest
that pressure difference was not the dominate term in my unbalanced fuel
burn. It was notable that the pressures on the tanks were negative. A
snorkel vent was constructed and tested at 70 mph and found to produce
about 0.1 PSI. Each fuel cap was modified with a snorkel vent facing the
slip stream to pressurize each tank to a positive pressure of 0.1 PSI.
I will now explain the importance of this pressure if it exists. In a
perfect world the pressure above both tanks would be equal and any
difference in fuel height (head) would result in fuel flowing from the
higher tank, through the gascolator then into the tank with the lower
fuel level. This would continue until the level of both tanks was equal.
If a slight pressure was applied above the fuel level to one tank then
the level fuel would flow from the pressurized tank to the unpressurized
tank until a fuel head develops an opposing pressure equal the
pressurized tank. Keep in mind that as fuel flows from the source tank
the level drops and the level in the other rises, so the head that must
develop in the tank is really only half of the total required, since
half is a rise in one tank, while half is a drop in the other.
To understand how a slight pressure can create a problem, a little math
is needed.
Gasoline weighs 6 pounds per gallon and there is 231 cubic inches in a
gallon. Thus an inch of gas weighs 6/231 pounds or 0.02597 pounds per
cubic inch and would exert 0.02597 PSI on the bottom of the tank. If a
pressure difference between the tanks were to develop of say 0.2 PSI,
which doesn't seem like much, it would take (0.2)/(0.02597) or 7.7
inches of fuel head to equal this pressure. To develop this head
requires that the fuel flow from one tank into the other until the head
pressure matches the offending tank pressure.
One can easily see that in the case when both tanks start out full, such
as at the beginning of a cross county, that fuel pushed into the already
full tank must vent overboard. Also to develop the required head the
pressured tank must lose all of the fuel head. This is because no
additional head can develop in a full tank. It's not really as bad as
this would suggest, because while this is occurring, fuel is being
burned which creates room for this head to develop without continued
fuel loss.
This simple analysis indicates the importance of minimizing the
difference pressure between two tanks. The best way to do this is to add
a vent tube that connects the top of both tanks together and use two
vented caps. I did not know about this problem until I had completed my
aircraft so it was too late for me to do this. For you builders that are
still building your wings, I would recommend that you modify your tanks
and add a hose fitting to the top of each tank. Then when plumbing your
aircraft run a fuel grade hose between the two tanks. Back to my
problem, the manometer test I conducted indicated that a slight pressure
difference did exist between tanks and contributes to uneven fuel burn.
I added snorkel vents to both caps to create a slight positive pressure
of near equal value on both tanks to minimize the difference pressure.
So long as a bug doesn't plug one of my vents things should work fine.
The conclusions I have reached are thus, the Zenith fuel system which
ties both tanks together will supply needed fuel, even if one tank runs
dry before the other. This is because the supply line is able to flow
fuel to the gascolator at 15.8 gallons/hour and the engine only requires
at most 6.5 gallons/hour. Since there is excess fuel flow capability the
two tanks will try to remain equal in level and can do so providing
there is not a significant difference in pressure above the tanks. The
difference pressure should probably not exceed more than about 0.1 PSI
(3.3 inches of fuel head). The best way to minimize the pressure
difference is to have a common vent line that connects the two tanks
together above the fuel level. Also it would be wise to have vents in
both caps so that if one were plugged there is a redundant vent.
If any of you builders out there have arrived at a different conclusion
please post or send me you efforts. I would really like to put this to
bed so I can fly safe and have peace of mind regarding this problem.
Hope this is not to long for you all, sorry if it is but I wanted to get
it all out there for consideration and opinions...
Thanks..Bob Kissell
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
Probably other 701 pilots have noticed this:
-
Keep the-oil--canning, -is a cheap and "automatic"-built in- St
all and- Slip "alarm" in the 701,-- is a free bonus from ZAC no other
airplane has- that makes it extra safe....
-
Try to keep the ball centered always when flying and the-low speed -bet
wen 50 and 60 mph- (with or without 15=B0 of flaps)- when doing your ap
proach and the "alarm" will not sound.---
When I flair to land I can lower the speed a lot more, but I have not notic
ed any alarm, probably I am too focused in my landing to hear it.- :-)
-
Also I have noticed that keeping-the ball centered I have an extra Bonus:
- About- more than 5 mph increase in cruise speed-over the "alarm" sp
eed...- ;-)
-
As my Instructor--told me -always in my student hours:- "keep the b
all centered"-- also a favorite from him was:- I want 60, NOT- 59
-or 61 only 60"--- If I had recieve my instruction in the 701 he mi
ght-only say:- "Keep that oil canning off"- :-)- :-)
-
Just my personal experience.
-
About the post also,- I have my pitch set for 87 mph at 5,000 rpm cruise
- (normally over 6,500 + ft ASL)
moved the pitch a little at a time until got it set, cant remember the fina
l degress of pitch, but was a little (like a milimeter) at a time. .
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala,- Mexico
701 912S- 200 + hrs.
Building a 601 XL Jab 3300.-
"Hope will also have the "alarm" built in..."-
-
--- On Wed, 9/17/08, BokKat <bobkat@btinet.net> wrote:
From: BokKat <bobkat@btinet.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Wow, you must have your prop adjusted pretty coarse.- Mine's probably too
far the other way.
I checked and was able to oil can the back of the baggage compartment and a
lso the belly hatch.- Maybe an L angle stiffener added here will "can" th
e noise!
Thanks for the suggestions.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
I have the same engine and prop and cruise at 4400 rpm (nice and quiet and
low fuel burn) and show about 78mph + or minus depending on gross weight, t
urbulence and if I'm paying attention. This is on my Dynon and conventional
ASI, both are within a MPH of each other.-
I get the same clatter in slow flight. In my case it's the back of the bagg
age compartment that starts oil canning and banging at about 50mph.
Can't comment on the fuel issues -- I haven't had any.
Gordon--
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is getting.- I
',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp prop at about 54
00 rpm's.- Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator off?- Haven't had
a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and bangs ba
ck in the fuselge, presumably oil canning.- Normal?- I checked everythi
ng else and nothing is loose.
3)- Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out and im
mediately got better when throttled back.- On my Dynon monitor a Low Fuel
Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2 psi, yet fuel
flow was 5 gallons per hour.- I returned home and checked the fuel flow
and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the front of the firewal
l anyway.- I have a gascolater in front of the firewall that I'll check a
nd clean today.- The fuel pressure and fuel flow senders spliced into the
line shouldn't obstruct the flow.- On the ground at idle it is about 3 -
3.5 psi.- Any ideas?- It seems to run itself out of gas past about 540
0rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the elevator and rec
ieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via SST or SR-71?)- Put
them on the elevator and wow!!- Almost too much sensitivity!- It throw
s itself into the air and I found I have to be ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done much testi
ng of things yet.- Mainly getting it up and down comfortably at this poin
t.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=0A=0A=0A
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Great post, and a good experiment!
That's exactly what my experience with my Kitfox has been as well. It's
easy to discount the effects of the vents, and the vent plumbing but it
is a very real phenomenon. Have ground tested my fuel flow from both
tanks and they are very close, but in flight is a different matter. Even in
carefully coordinated flight I get uneven flow.
I think there's one 801 crashed when fuel flow stopped, which makes me
very suspicious of the stock caps as the culprit.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4826#204826
Message 18
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| Subject: | After 5 hours flight time, questions |
BokKat,
I also have 100-hp 912ULS engine but have a 3-blade Warpdrive prop. I set
the pitch several times and found that if I let the static (tied-down) RPM
go to 5400, I get bad fuel economy and slower cruise that at 5100 (a higher
pitch). With this setting, at about 4900-RPM, I get better than 5-GPH and
cruise at about 79-MPH under near standard conditions at 1000'. I can fly as
low as 4000-RPM and get about 3-GPH. I suggest you increase your prop pitch
and see how this impacts your speed and fuel flow.
Regarding your fuel flow problem; since you plane is new its very possible
your fuel filter has some construction junk in it that constricts your fuel
flow only at peak draw. If so, this should be easy to fix. Also check to see
if crud got into your gascolator gas. If the filters and gascolator are
clean, you may also need to check the carb jets and float bowls for crud.
Another possibility is that the holes you drilled in your gas caps are too
small or not properly placed.
I hope this helps,
Les
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BokKat
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is getting. I',m
only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp prop at about 5400
rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator off? Haven't had a
chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and bangs
back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I checked everything
else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out and
immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor a Low Fuel
Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2 psi, yet fuel
flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked the fuel flow and
there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the front of the firewall
anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the firewall that I'll check and
clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel flow senders spliced into the line
shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi.
Any ideas? It seems to run itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the elevator and
recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via SST or SR-71?) Put
them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much sensitivity! It throws
itself into the air and I found I have to be ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done much
testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably at this
point.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
BokKat wrote:
> 1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone is
> getting. I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp
> prop at about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator
> off? Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
> 2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something clatters and
> bangs back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal? I checked
> everything else and nothing is loose.
> 3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and climb out and
> immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon monitor a Low
> Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about 1.9 to 2 psi,
> yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and checked the
> fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as the front
> of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the firewall
> that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel flow
> senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
> ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
> itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
> 4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the elevator
> and recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via SST or
> SR-71?) Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much
> sensitivity! It throws itself into the air and I found I have to be
> ready for it.
> Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't really done much
> testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down comfortably at
> this point.
> *
>
> *
1) I am getting 80 mph at 4700 rpm with 912S and three bladed Warp Drive
prop at 12 degrees pitch in straight and level flight.
2) I do not get a clatter but I do get a rumble at all speeds.
3) I have not had any faltering of the engine at any time even though
my water temps have been running on the high side of normal.
4) The VG's are helpful. The are worth the cost.
Dan Wilde N948DW
Message 20
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| Subject: | fuel flow for CH701 |
Lots of great info Bob. Thanks for describing your test.
If I put a vent line between the tanks, can that line dip and have a low
spot? What if fuel sloshed up into that line? Let's say the dip was 3.3
inches and it filled with fuel. Seems to me that there would have to be a
3.3 inches of fuel head pressure (0.1 psi) differential between the tanks
before the air would vent between the tanks. Is there a way to route that
line between the tanks without any dips or is there a way to keep fuel out?
Curt
CH701, plans building.
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:43 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: fuel flow for CH701
Study of the Zenith CH701 two tank fuel system, Bob Kissell, N701UB
<Snip>
Message 21
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| Subject: | After 5 hours flight time, questions |
With the Woodcomp 3 bladed composite prop where and how are people measuring
the pitch angle? I have the Woodcomp prop and a Warp Drive protractor.
-- Craig
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
You should put the Warp Drive Protractor at the very tip of the blade,
Craig.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Craig Payne wrote:
> *With the Woodcomp 3 bladed composite prop where and how are people measuring
the pitch angle? I have the Woodcomp prop and a Warp Drive protractor.*
> * *
> *-- Craig*
> * *
> *
>
> *
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Zenith Gathering |
Mark/George:
I just put my Olfa knife in my car. See you on Friday about noon.
Stan
On Sep 17, 2008, at 10:06 , George Race wrote:
> >
>
> Can someone please help Mark out?
> George
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: zodierocket@hsfx.ca [mailto:zodierocket@hsfx.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:19 AM
> To: mykitairplane@mrrace.com
> Subject: Zenith Gathering
>
> Hi George, could you do me a favor please. I came down to the open
> house
> early and forgot to bring a Olfa P-800 Knife for my Forum on Friday.
> Could
> you ask the lists if there is anyone who is attending on Friday if
> they can
> bring me a knife, used or new would be fine. I am trying to find one
> locally, but don't expect to much success finding one here in Mexico,
> Missouri.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation.
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
Good point Gary. If the Dynon (in Bokkat's case) was not set up
properly with the ball centered when the plane is level he could be
loosing a lot of speed by pushing the plane along sideways.
G
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Probably other 701 pilots have noticed this:
Keep the oil canning, is a cheap and "automatic" built in
Stall and Slip "alarm" in the 701, is a free bonus from ZAC no other
airplane has that makes it extra safe....
Try to keep the ball centered always when flying and the low
speed betwen 50 and 60 mph (with or without 15=B0 of flaps) when
doing your approach and the "alarm" will not sound.
When I flair to land I can lower the speed a lot more, but I
have not noticed any alarm, probably I am too focused in my landing to
hear it. :-)
Also I have noticed that keeping the ball centered I have an
extra Bonus: About more than 5 mph increase in cruise speed over the
"alarm" speed... ;-)
As my Instructor told me always in my student hours: "keep
the ball centered" also a favorite from him was: I want 60, NOT 59
or 61 only 60" If I had recieve my instruction in the 701 he might
only say: "Keep that oil canning off" :-) :-)
Just my personal experience.
About the post also, I have my pitch set for 87 mph at 5,000
rpm cruise (normally over 6,500 + ft ASL)
moved the pitch a little at a time until got it set, cant
remember the final degress of pitch, but was a little (like a milimeter)
at a time. .
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico
701 912S 200 + hrs.
Building a 601 XL Jab 3300.
"Hope will also have the "alarm" built in..."
--- On Wed, 9/17/08, BokKat <bobkat@btinet.net> wrote:
From: BokKat <bobkat@btinet.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 12:02 PM
Wow, you must have your prop adjusted pretty coarse. Mine's
probably too far the other way.
I checked and was able to oil can the back of the baggage
compartment and also the belly hatch. Maybe an L angle stiffener added
here will "can" the noise!
Thanks for the suggestions.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
I have the same engine and prop and cruise at 4400 rpm (nice
and quiet and low fuel burn) and show about 78mph + or minus depending
on gross weight, turbulence and if I'm paying attention. This is on my
Dynon and conventional ASI, both are within a MPH of each other.
I get the same clatter in slow flight. In my case it's the
back of the baggage compartment that starts oil canning and banging at
about 50mph.
Can't comment on the fuel issues -- I haven't had any.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: BokKat
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
1) Just wondering what kind of indicated airspeed everyone
is getting. I',m only getting about 70mph with a Rotax 912 ULS woodcomp
prop at about 5400 rpm's. Is this normal or is my airspeed indicator
off? Haven't had a chance to check it yet.
2) With slow flight and apporach to landing something
clatters and bangs back in the fuselge, presumably oil canning. Normal?
I checked everything else and nothing is loose.
3) Yesterday my engine faltered under full throttle and
climb out and immediately got better when throttled back. On my Dynon
monitor a Low Fuel Pressure warning popped up and it showed only about
1.9 to 2 psi, yet fuel flow was 5 gallons per hour. I returned home and
checked the fuel flow and there is plenty of unobstructed flow as far as
the front of the firewall anyway. I have a gascolater in front of the
firewall that I'll check and clean today. The fuel pressure and fuel
flow senders spliced into the line shouldn't obstruct the flow. On the
ground at idle it is about 3 - 3.5 psi. Any ideas? It seems to run
itself out of gas past about 5400rpm!?!
4) I was just getting used to the pitch sensitivity of the
elevator and recieved the VG's from JG (in only a week! Send them via
SST or SR-71?) Put them on the elevator and wow!! Almost too much
sensitivity! It throws itself into the air and I found I have to be
ready for it.
Still in the learning curve of flying it, so haven't
really done much testing of things yet. Mainly getting it up and down
comfortably at this point.
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
Let's say each fuel cap is vented to the outside air. Wouldn't that be the
same as tieing them together with a vent line? What would make tying them
together with a vent line better than just having two vented fuel caps?
On 17 Sep 2008 at 15:42, bob wrote:
> The best way to minimize the pressure difference is to have a common vent line
that connects the two tanks together above the fuel level.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
2" in from the tip of the prop. I used the line between the red tips and the
black prop.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/17/2008 5:17:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
craig@craigandjean.com writes:
With the Woodcomp 3 bladed composite prop where and how are people measuring
the pitch angle? I have the Woodcomp prop and a Warp Drive protractor.
-- Craig
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
Message 27
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| Subject: | After 5 hours flight time, questions |
Thanks, any advice on an initial angle?
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
NYTerminat@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
2" in from the tip of the prop. I used the line between the red tips and the
black prop.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/17/2008 5:17:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
craig@craigandjean.com writes:
With the Woodcomp 3 bladed composite prop where and how are people measuring
the pitch angle? I have the Woodcomp prop and a Warp Drive protractor.
-- Craig
_____
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new
<http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014> fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
Message 28
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| Subject: | fuel flow for CH701 |
I think what some have said is that there is a little negative pressure
(vacuum) at the vent in the cap. And then the vacuum is not the same on
both sides. Attaching a tube to each cap and facing them forward causes a
positive pressure. But again, this is not equal on both sides.
Curt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: fuel flow for CH701
Let's say each fuel cap is vented to the outside air. Wouldn't that be the
same as tieing them together with a vent line? What would make tying them
together with a vent line better than just having two vented fuel caps?
On 17 Sep 2008 at 15:42, bob wrote:
> The best way to minimize the pressure difference is to have a common vent
line that connects the two tanks together above the fuel level.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
My 801 does the same thing. I have both tanks tied together with a vent
line and still the left tank will drain twice as fast as the right one..
My guess it has to do with the airflow swirling around the fuselage and
wings,,,, coming off the prop in a circular motion. The right wing gets
hit on the top and the left wing gets hit on the bottom.... Anyone got
any other ideas ????
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com> wrote:
Great post, and a good experiment!
That's exactly what my experience with my Kitfox has been as well. It's
easy to discount the effects of the vents, and the vent plumbing but it
is a very real phenomenon. Have ground tested my fuel flow from both
tanks and they are very close, but in flight is a different matter. Even
in
carefully coordinated flight I get uneven flow.
I think there's one 801 crashed when fuel flow stopped, which makes me
very suspicious of the stock caps as the culprit.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4826#204826
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
I started with the Zenith supplied vent caps. The 801 has such a massive
amount of lift the low pressure area above the wing will suck out fuel
through the vented caps if I have anything more then 7/8 full tanks of f
uel. One my first flight it stained the top of the right wing, yeah, I
used Dupont Imron aircraft paint @ 300.00 + a gallon too. Boy, was I pis
sed and I even stopped at the Dupont booth at Osk and explained my probl
em. Those guys said , " yup, 100LL blue dye will stain the paint". So mu
ch for aircraft grade crap !!! I epoxied up my caps and that fixed that
issue. I also have aux vents that protrude below the wings with the fro
nt of those tubes cut at an angle.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Ken Ryan" <kenryan@alaska.net> wrote:
Let's say each fuel cap is vented to the outside air. Wouldn't that be t
he
same as tieing them together with a vent line? What would make tying the
m
together with a vent line better than just having two vented fuel caps?
On 17 Sep 2008 at 15:42, bob wrote:
> The best way to minimize the pressure difference is to have a common v
ent line that connects the two tanks together above the fuel level.
========================
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____________________________________________________________
Planning for retirement? Click for free information on 401(k) plans.
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Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
The Woodcomp manual says 11- 12 degrees, I ended up at a little over 13
degrees. I would start at 13 and see what your static RPM is. You should be at
least 5400 static.
Bob
In a message dated 9/17/2008 9:31:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
craig@craigandjean.com writes:
Thanks, any advice on an initial angle?
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: After 5 hours flight time, questions
2" in from the tip of the prop. I used the line between the red tips and the
black prop.
Bob Spudis
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
Message 32
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| Subject: | 801 wing root rib |
I'm working on the right wing and ran into a problem with the root rib. When I
locate the root rib, the rear spar deflects rearward 6 or 7 mm. The distance
between the main spar and rear spar at all of the rear wing ribs is 820 mm.
At the root rib, I get 827 mm. Now, the IB bottom skin is 820 mm wide which tells
me that all the ribs are looking good except for the root rib.
I'm discussing the issue with Caleb but wanted to ask some of the 801 builders
here a few questions:
1) is the root rib parallel to the other rear wing ribs?
2) is the root rib the same length as the other rear wing ribs?
3) does the root rib join the rear spar at the 1st or 2nd row of pre-drilled holes
in the rear spar? (My pre-drilled skin tells me the first row in the rear
spar is correct).
Without your parts in front of you, I realize it's a pretty small detail and probably
hard to answer. I've attached an excel file with some measurements and
notes to help describe my problem.
I suppose there are some that would say I'm nit-picking over a few mm. But, when
I get that root rib in place I really see a curve in the rear spar between
the root and station 1 and I just don't like that.
Thanks,
Ben
--------
Ben Church
CH801
Racine, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4883#204883
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_177.xls
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